Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[ThirdEye]

Kid needs a sabbatical. He’s forcing everything, ostensibly either cause he’s feeling the weight of the 1OA or trying way too hard to not make mistakes (which is actually having the opposite result). Or it could be that he just sucks. But I truly think he’s got more to give, his confidence is just shit right now. He dis seem to pick it up toward the end of last season so hoping for the same this year.

 

[leetch99]

Well.....if he fails to get a couple of points in the next two games.......the kid has a lot of pressure on him is a given . Myself....I hope he plays well and I'll worry about his points after .

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I don’t think anyone here dislikes Laff or is ready to ship him off but there seems to be two camps. The group that thinks his development should come at the expense of the other 18 skaters and the teams success this season and the group that thinks team success is more important. As it stands now, he’s not a top 6 guy or PP 1 guy. His very existence in those roles keeps them from being as good as they can be. Maybe in the future he’ll become one of those guys but not this year. For me, it’s about the team. Let him figure out how to make an impact with the opportunities he’s given and then he needs to get to work this summer and work on his conditioning and skating. They don’t need him to be MacKinnon this year.

 

[Slaydagnar]

The problem, again, isn’t whether we dislike Laf, it’s the timing. Waiting for him to take a 6 year path to being a top six NHLer doesn’t align with the timeline the team committed itself to when giving Shesterkin the extension they did and deciding to keep Kreider, invest in Trochek, etc.

So Laf becomes a 65 point player in year 6 and but everyone else is now 33-35 years old? Right now, it’s a total toss up whether Laf succeeds or not, but as a 1OA pick who has played behind a lot of veterans, there’s still a perception that a fresh start somewhere with a larger role could be what he needs and so he still has some value as a trade asset. And while a 60-70 point player has value for us as well, if he does get there, it isn’t a franchise altering talent we’re going to kick ourselves forever over if we move on. He isn’t going to become a 100 point star. It’s a 50/50 he becomes a legitimate top six player. A 60-70 point top six player ON their ELC while the vets are still productive makes the team a contender. A 60-70 point player 3 years from now just replaces some of the production of the veterans slowing down.

Either we want to win with Zib, Panarin, Kreider, Trochek, Shesty - in which case the luxury of patience isn’t really there for Laf, because we need someone who is contributing more NOW - or we want to win with Laf, Kakko, etc. 3-5 years from now. Considering Laf and Kakko are beyond unlikely to be as good as or have the same impact as Zib and Bread, that’s not a plan I would invest too heavily in. But if that’s the path, we should probably start talking to all of the vet’s agents about waiving their NMCs.

But since the kids in the system are very unlikely to adequately replace the contributions of the veterans here currently, and Shesty is in his prime on a contract we can afford, we should probably be going for it now, over the next 2-3 years. In that case, patience just doesn’t really fit the team’s structure.


It’s not about liking the kid or disliking the kid or not realizing he COULD break out. It’s about being realistic about where we are. We have a core that is good but needs more contribution and help CURRENTLY to get over the hump and contend. We’re relatively close. It would be sort of silly not to try to get there. Whether you agree or disagree that Laf may break out - even that it would really suck if he became a 75 point player somewhere else after we gave up on him - the question is:

Would we rather waste the prime of Zib, Kreider, Shesty and the remainder of Bread’s 12M contract but have a 60% chance of having a 70 point winger in 3 years?

OR

Go for it while Zib, Kreider and Shesty are prime, Bread hasn’t fallen off a cliff and Fox is playing like a Norris candidate at the expense of POSSIBLY having a 70 point winger in 3 years?

I mean, on the defending Laf side, does anyone actually think this kid has 90-100 point potential still? We’re going to trade him and he’s going to go from what he is now to Marner or Rantanen? He’s more likely to become Bryan Rust (look at his numbers before knee jerk responses, k thx). Is it really SO egregious to let a potential Bryan Rust go in order to try and go for a Cup?

Rust has hockey sense, goes to the net hard and has character I don’t even see those attributes in Laf.
Hate to say it but the kid is a dolt

 

[Mandar]

One game makes/breaks his career...? How many PP goals did everyone else on the team score in that game? Zero, right. The PP1 is 22.5%. They would have needed a few more PP opportunities to score a goal based on their percentage. You're judging this kid based on ONE game of getting some PP1 time? That's not how it works. You need a far FAR larger sample size. Kreider has 4 PP goals this season. Panarin has 2. How many PP opportunities has this team had? According to statmuse 138. In 138 PP opportunities Kreider scored 4 times. Panarin 2. And you're giving Laf shit because he didn't score on 4? A real sample size would be Lafreniere being on PP1 for all 82 games of the season like some of us have been saying. Real opportunities aren't a few games. It's the same darn thing for his usage at 5v5. You can't give him a few games with Zibanejad and then jerk him around and drop him to the 3rd and 4th lines and get him 11 minutes and expect THAT to be the opportunities. That's not how it works. All the other players he's always compared against have had sustained large sample sized opportunities in big spots, Lafreniere HAS NOT. And despite all that what he HAS shown over a large enough sample size is that despite his shit usage by this shit coach is he is one of the team's best EV producers. Despite limited usage. Despite being jerked around the lineup. Despite the shit ATOI.

So, do you think Laffy needs to be on PP1 more?

 

[Synergy27]

I don’t think anyone here dislikes Laff or is ready to ship him off but there seems to be two camps. The group that thinks his development should come at the expense of the other 18 skaters and the teams success this season and the group that thinks team success is more important. As it stands now, he’s not a top 6 guy or PP 1 guy. His very existence in those roles keeps them from being as good as they can be. Maybe in the future he’ll become one of those guys but not this year. For me, it’s about the team. Let him figure out how to make an impact with the opportunities he’s given and then he needs to get to work this summer and work on his conditioning and skating. They don’t need him to be MacKinnon this year.

There’s a third camp. There’s people like me who thought we were getting the best of both worlds, got really excited, and are now just salty and bitter like we’ve been for decades. The whole point of this was that we were adding elite talent to elite talent and would be able to overwhelm teams. We’d be that juggernaut that @mas0764 wants us to be.

Instead, we are again in semi-purgatory like we always are. The team is good but probably not good enough. The kids are ok, but they are in no way shoe-ins to be as good as, let alone better than, our current crop of vet stars (at forward at least).

It’s definitely not obvious to me that the chances of winning a future cup are better if we prioritize the development of Kakko, Laf, Othmann, and whoever the hell we draft this year. With every game that passes it becomes less likely, to my eyes, that those players are going to become elite scorers that can somehow improve on the elite scorers we are currently icing.

I remain steadfast in my opinion that Panarin is a problem. I would love, love, love it if Laf was scoring at ~75% of his pace while bringing positive performance in areas of the rink that Panarin doesn’t care about (physicality, defense, crease stuff, etc.).

He’s not.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

There’s a third camp. There’s people like me who thought we were getting the best of both worlds, got really excited, and are now just salty and bitter like we’ve been for decades. The whole point of this was that we were adding elite talent to elite talent and would be able to overwhelm teams. We’d be that juggernaut that @mas0764 wants us to be.

Instead, we are again in semi-purgatory like we always are. The team is good but probably not good enough. The kids are ok, but they are in no way shoe-ins to be as good as, let alone better than, our current crop of vet stars (at forward at least).

It’s definitely not obvious to me that the chances of winning a future cup are better if we prioritize the development of Kakko, Laf, Othmann, and whoever the hell we draft this year. With every game that passes it becomes less likely, to my eyes, that those players are going to become elite scorers that can somehow improve on the elite scorers we are currently icing.

I remain steadfast in my opinion that Panarin is a problem. I would love, love, love it if Laf was scoring at ~75% of his pace while bringing positive performance in areas of the rink that Panarin doesn’t care about (physicality, defense, crease stuff, etc.).

He’s not.

Kakko is better this year than last year. As is Chytil, Miller, Schneider, even Kravtsov. I don’t think that’s debatable. Yeah it sucks Laff hasn’t taken off but it’s too soon to say he’s a bust or won’t be a solid contributor. It is what it is. But the idea that this team should sacrifice this year for the sake of Laff is BS. They have one of the best goalies and defenseman on the planet. High end players in Zib, Panarin, and Kreider. They have the luxury of bringing Laff along slowly because of it. There are plenty of teams loaded with elite talent who haven’t won shit.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

There’s a third camp. There’s people like me who thought we were getting the best of both worlds, got really excited, and are now just salty and bitter like we’ve been for decades. The whole point of this was that we were adding elite talent to elite talent and would be able to overwhelm teams. We’d be that juggernaut that @mas0764 wants us to be.

Instead, we are again in semi-purgatory like we always are. The team is good but probably not good enough. The kids are ok, but they are in no way shoe-ins to be as good as, let alone better than, our current crop of vet stars (at forward at least).

It’s definitely not obvious to me that the chances of winning a future cup are better if we prioritize the development of Kakko, Laf, Othmann, and whoever the hell we draft this year. With every game that passes it becomes less likely, to my eyes, that those players are going to become elite scorers that can somehow improve on the elite scorers we are currently icing.

I remain steadfast in my opinion that Panarin is a problem. I would love, love, love it if Laf was scoring at ~75% of his pace while bringing positive performance in areas of the rink that Panarin doesn’t care about (physicality, defense, crease stuff, etc.).

He’s not.

100% agreed, and this is where I fall as well. I am in the camp of people that wanted to see a hell of a lot more of Kreider and Zuccarello in 2012-13, and allow Gaborik to play on a top line opposite Rick Nash and recover from offseason shoulder surgery, instead of relegating him to the 3rd line and acting shocked when he didn't carry the offense.

Not only do I maintain the Gaborik trade actively hurt us (especially when he helped beat us in 2014), but the complete and utter failure to develop Kreider and Zuccarello to their potential that year actively hurt us in BOTH 2013-14 and 2014-15 as well. Now, if you look at them, they are both very good players (we can call them 1A's - not superstars but players that can competently play with superstars) many, many years later. If they were that in 2013-14 and 2014-15 there's a high likelihood we come away with TWO Cups.

But it was more important to hold them back because they weren't defensively responsible, etc. the usual crap. Meanwhile in 2013, Taylor Pyatt was skating in 48 games and seeing PP time, and Jeff Halpern was still clinging to an NHL career. After his 2012 playoffs debut, Kreider should have been stapled to the second line opposite Callahan, and Zucc should have been a mainstay on the 3rd and PP2, but nope.

But hey, a decade later Kreider scored 52 so the Rangers "developed" him, right? Cup window be damned...and I'm very concerned this organization is making the exact same mistake on a smaller scale with deployment of the kids today. Come playoff time, we are going to need two scoring lines that are firing, our defense to be on point, our third line to be capable of shutting shit down, and a 4th line that generally won't be a liability on the ice. Depth scoring was the issue last year too. If teams want to glue themselves to Panarin and Zibanejad, and the PP isn't working, we need other scorers that have the ability to break games open. We didn't have that last year, and while the kids have made strides this year, they're not there for a playoff run yet. The only way they're going to get there is to see more all situations use. PP1 is not going to get "better" playing 1:40 out of every 2 min. advantage. In fact, they're just going to give the league a better scouting report on them. I'd rather see our top scorers get LESS PP time, and less mileage on their bodies going into a year when all of us are hoping for a deep playoff run, and see MORE of our kids getting opportunities to produce and develop now so that they're where we need them to be in 3 and a half months - and that includes physically. That Laf was "tired" after 21 mins. is what happens. Now by all accounts, he's a gym rat, and there is a big difference between workout shape and game shape, so I don't read too much into this, but the best way to get players into game shape like this is to actually use them in game situations. What happens when we end up in Triple OT in the playoffs? Does 20-93-10 play 45 minutes, and the rest of the players can't keep up, then 20-93-10 are gassed for the rest of the series? We have to play the long game a little bit too.

 

[LokiDog]

There’s a third camp. There’s people like me who thought we were getting the best of both worlds, got really excited, and are now just salty and bitter like we’ve been for decades. The whole point of this was that we were adding elite talent to elite talent and would be able to overwhelm teams. We’d be that juggernaut that @mas0764 wants us to be.

Instead, we are again in semi-purgatory like we always are. The team is good but probably not good enough. The kids are ok, but they are in no way shoe-ins to be as good as, let alone better than, our current crop of vet stars (at forward at least).

It’s definitely not obvious to me that the chances of winning a future cup are better if we prioritize the development of Kakko, Laf, Othmann, and whoever the hell we draft this year. With every game that passes it becomes less likely, to my eyes, that those players are going to become elite scorers that can somehow improve on the elite scorers we are currently icing.

I remain steadfast in my opinion that Panarin is a problem. I would love, love, love it if Laf was scoring at ~75% of his pace while bringing positive performance in areas of the rink that Panarin doesn’t care about (physicality, defense, crease stuff, etc.).

He’s not.

I also agree. Panarin is a problem. He’s blocking Laf from seeing if there is anything there for us to get excited about and he’s just not a play driver. The only player in the world who makes more money is McDavid - how many players who make less than Panarin are able to take over games, periods, stretches of play AND do so significantly more consistently than he does? You can’t win with nearly 12M tied into a player with Panarin’s attitude and lack of drive. The return on cap investment isn’t nearly enough and there are A LOT of fans who will continue to point to 90+ points and say he’s great, he’s an elite talent, you’re crazy, but if Laf was playing in Panarin’s spot and putting up 60-70 points while on his ELC and we had 12M cap space to invest in a better bottom six and LHD, we would be immensely better.

I also agree that THE problem, and the reason for so much hand wringing regarding Laf, is that we were poised to add elite talent (twice, really) to the already elite talent we had in Panarin and Zib, and emerging in Fox and Shesterkin and that WOULD have given us the total fire power to overwhelm teams and truly be dangerous contenders. Even one of Laf/KK being that would have made us dangerous. Instead, as you said, it is the all too familiar limbo of being a good team that’s (most likely) not good enough. I’m not rooting against the kid - I’m just tired of the cycle repeating. If he were a 40+ point, mistake prone but dynamic kid on the third line who tried making plays, sometimes succeeded, sometimes failed, but looked like maturity, experience and an eventual promotion to a higher line would yield promising results, I’d feel a lot better. I feel like Stutzle and Zegras, even buried on a third line with Chytil and Vesey, would continue to try rushing the puck, dangling a defender, making high danger plays - and they would succeed sometimes. That’s the difference, for me. We can say oh, we would have ruined those guys too, but I don’t think so. They may not be producing like they are on their current teams with greater opportunity, but I don’t think we would have magicked away their high end skills and that skill would still be evident in their diminished roles. Instead we got a slower Dubinsky.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I don’t think anyone here dislikes Laff or is ready to ship him off but there seems to be two camps. The group that thinks his development should come at the expense of the other 18 skaters and the teams success this season and the group that thinks team success is more important. As it stands now, he’s not a top 6 guy or PP 1 guy. His very existence in those roles keeps them from being as good as they can be. Maybe in the future he’ll become one of those guys but not this year. For me, it’s about the team. Let him figure out how to make an impact with the opportunities he’s given and then he needs to get to work this summer and work on his conditioning and skating. They don’t need him to be MacKinnon this year.

Nah I’m ready to ship him off

 

[LORDE]

At some point people are going to realize there's nothing there for him (or the team) to develop

He's not an exceptional hockey player at this level & he never will be.

He'll be a 3rd line, rather ordinary, journeyman

 

[ReddestRum]

The last two pages have yielded some great posts. My favorites coming from @haohmaru , @Pawnee Rangers , @Synergy27 . They are a breath of fresh air against the constant rhetoric that Laf, as our 1OA, should be the team's top priority. That the majority of his development, team synergy be damned, should come from sticking him on top units regardless of if he belongs there or not.

We are not in a rebuild where we can experiment limitlessly with this, while waiting for him to get his confidence and skill going. We are in mid-season, fighting for position in the standings.

I find myself in between camp success and camp bitter, although I lean more on team success. I was not going to get my hopes up about Laf following Kakko's own production cycle through the years.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Making it to the ECF screwed us and screwed the kids. I think it's less the organization's fault and more on the fact that we're just a successful team, with successful vets. We're now going to be gunning for a repeat of last year (and fail again because our depth scoring is absolutely terrible). This team wants to win a cup with the core of vets they have now, and would've been that much closer if the kids showed elite potential out of the gate. I think this is what people were betting on. I think this is what the organization was betting on.

Lastly, we don't have an eternity for the kids to gain their legs. I know people have been throwing out timelines of 3, 5, and even 8 years for them to develop into elites. Does anyone even know what the team looks like in 8 years?? I promise you that this team won't wait that long. They will make a decision on whether these kids can hack it as leaders of this team, and will not turn over the reigns if they're still showing as bottom 6 forwards that scrape by with a point every 3-4 games.

Tonight will be a very interesting night for Laf. 3rd game in a row where he's getting 18+ minutes, and (maybe) another stint on PP1. He's got to get on the scoresheet tonight against the CanadiTanks. I'm going to treat him like any other player on top the top lines that don't produce. If I'm going to give Panarin and Zib shit for being invisible, then he can get the same treatment.

 

[LORDE]

There’s a third camp. There’s people like me who thought we were getting the best of both worlds, got really excited, and are now just salty and bitter like we’ve been for decades. The whole point of this was that we were adding elite talent to elite talent and would be able to overwhelm teams. We’d be that juggernaut that @mas0764 wants us to be.

Instead, we are again in semi-purgatory like we always are. The team is good but probably not good enough. The kids are ok, but they are in no way shoe-ins to be as good as, let alone better than, our current crop of vet stars (at forward at least).

It’s definitely not obvious to me that the chances of winning a future cup are better if we prioritize the development of Kakko, Laf, Othmann, and whoever the hell we draft this year. With every game that passes it becomes less likely, to my eyes, that those players are going to become elite scorers that can somehow improve on the elite scorers we are currently icing.

I remain steadfast in my opinion that Panarin is a problem. I would love, love, love it if Laf was scoring at ~75% of his pace while bringing positive performance in areas of the rink that Panarin doesn’t care about (physicality, defense, crease stuff, etc.).

He’s not.

Can't love this post enough

 

[GENESISPuck94]

The last two pages have yielded some great posts. My favorites coming from @haohmaru , @Pawnee Rangers , @Synergy27 . They are a breath of fresh air against the constant rhetoric that Laf, as our 1OA, should be the team's top priority. That the majority of his development, team synergy be damned, should come from sticking him on top units regardless of if he belongs there or not.

We are not in a rebuild where we can experiment limitlessly with this, while waiting for him to get his confidence and skill going. We are in mid-season, fighting for position in the standings.

I find myself in between camp success and camp bitter, although I lean more on team success. I was not going to get my hopes up about Laf following Kakko's own production cycle through the years.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Making it to the ECF screwed us and screwed the kids. I think it's less the organization's fault and more on the fact that we're just a successful team, with successful vets. We're now going to be gunning for a repeat of last year (and fail again because our depth scoring is absolutely terrible). This team wants to win a cup with the core of vets they have now, and would've been that much closer if the kids showed elite potential out of the gate. I think this is what people were betting on. I think this is what the organization was betting on.

Lastly, we don't have an eternity for the kids to gain their legs. I know people have been throwing out timelines of 3, 5, and even 8 years for them to develop into elites. Does anyone even know what the team looks like in 8 years?? I promise you that this team won't wait that long. They will make a decision on whether these kids can hack it as leaders of this team, and will not turn over the reigns if they're still showing as bottom 6 forwards that scrape by with a point every 3-4 games.

Tonight will be a very interesting night for Laf. 3rd game in a row where he's getting 18+ minutes, and (maybe) another stint on PP1. He's got to get on the scoresheet tonight against the CanadiTanks. I'm going to treat him like any other player on top the top lines that don't produce. If I'm going to give Panarin and Zib shit for being invisible, then he can get the same treatment.

It's a breath of fresh air to be ignorant and not understand the importance of a number one overall pick? Srewing up tye careers of #1 and #2 overall picks because "not rebuilding" is how teams don't win Cups.

The facts have been laid out. How many teams in the last 2 to 3 decades have won a Stanley Cup without their top picks leading the way?

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[ReddestRum]

It's a breath of fresh air to be ignorant and not understand the importance of a number one overall pick? Srewing up tye careers of #1 and #2 overall picks because "not rebuilding" is how teams don't win Cups.

The facts have been laid out. How many teams in the last 2 to 3 decades have won a Stanley Cup without their top picks leading the way?

It's a breath of fresh air to be reasonable in realizing that, again, that team's standpoint is success over experimentation. We're not in a position to play the kids at the top to death against other teams' top lines that would most certainly crush the shit out of us while we're battling for top spots in the metro. We're trying to win. We're not going to win by moving the kids anywhere they want to be for the sake of their "development".

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Nah I’m ready to ship him off

Cool. You gonna leave with him?

 

[haohmaru]

It's a breath of fresh air to be ignorant and not understand the importance of a number one overall pick? Srewing up tye careers of #1 and #2 overall picks because "not rebuilding" is how teams don't win Cups.

The facts have been laid out. How many teams in the last 2 to 3 decades have won a Stanley Cup without their top picks leading the way?

What's ignorant is thinking that Lafreniere is a generational Cup winning pick like Crosby, Ovechkin, MacKinnon, etc... and not seeing that it just might be turning into a Yakupov in front of our eyes.

Speaking of Yakupov, in only ONE out of SIX seasons did he average more ice time than Lafreniere has gotten this year.

I hope for the best for him, but straining to put him in the top six to play against even better players doesn't seem like the best option GIVEN THE WAY HE'S BEEN PLAYING since early December.

He's either going to figure it out or he isn't and an extra 2-3 minutes of ice time is not going to make that difference.

 

[bhamill]

He hasn't done anything to merit being there - especially over the last month. You're taking a kid that's struggling and thrusting him into the top 6 and not considering that that line also plays against the other team's best players. If he's this fantastic player waiting to happen then he should excel against other team's third lines and stand out. He doesn't.

As far as comparing him to the other 1OA's of the universe - he was drafted by a good team that has better players ahead of him. He also can't, for whatever reason, transition to the RW where he would've gotten a good long look in the top 6. He's playing on a team with expectations of that team going deep in the playoffs. Hughes, Dahlin, etc... all got huge minutes on shit teams. Lafreniere isn't on a shit team. He's also a "lower tier" 1OA - he's not expected to by Matthews or McDavid.

He's 5th on the team in even strength ice time. He's not some schlub buried on the fourth line getting low minutes.

But that’s the thing: 1OA players are normally spoon fed the PP and top line minutes and responsibilities… BEFORE they earn it. Laf and Hughes each scored 21 points their rookie years. Laf played five games less and 4 minutes less a game. Hughes was given PP1 time from the get go. That’s why he had 21 points. At EV strength Laf outscored Hughes 21 to 12, again in fewer games and minutes. Don’t give me nonsense about how Hughes EARNED that usage, Laf was the more effective rookie. It’s a matter of Hughes getting the traditional minutes, usage and responsibility that 1OA picks normally get.
Expecting the traditional development arc for a 1OA pick without the traditional 1OA treatment as far as usage and responsibility is frankly IRRATIONAL. Why would you expect the same development.

He’s 5th on the team in EV ice time and 6th (one point from tied for 3rd) in EV scoring. The only difference between his scoring and every other forward except the two stars, Zib and Bread, is power play time.

Cant have our cake and eat it too. We want traditional 1OA development, we need to give him the traditional treatment 1OA picks get. You do t think it’s good to break up the PP? Okay, I see the logic there, but then we can’t whine about his slow development. This is not a really difficult concept.

and ALL of the above with the caveat that I do not even think he’s playing well, but when a player can pick up the points while not on top of his shit, you have to know there’s a lot of head room.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

But that’s the thing: 1OA players are normally spoon fed the PP and top line minutes and responsibilities… BEFORE they earn it. Laf and Hughes each scored 21 points their rookie years. Laf played five games less and 4 minutes less a game. Hughes was given PP1 time from the get go. That’s why he had 21 points. At EV strength Laf outscored Hughes 21 to 12, again in fewer games and minutes. Don’t give me nonsense about how Hughes EARNED that usage, Laf was the more effective rookie. It’s a matter of Hughes getting the traditional minutes, usage and responsibility that 1OA picks normally get.
Expecting the traditional development arc for a 1OA pick without the traditional 1OA treatment as far as usage and responsibility is frankly IRRATIONAL. Why would you expect the same development.

He’s 5th on the team in EV ice time and 6th (one point from tied for 3rd) in EV scoring. The difference between his scoring and every other forward except the two stars, Zib and Bread, is power play time.

Cant have our cake and eat it too. We want traditional 1OA development, we need to give him the traditional treatment 1OA picks get. You do t think it’s good to break up the PP? Okay, I see the logic there, but then we can’t whine about his slow development. This is not a really difficult concept.

and ALL of the above with the caveat that I do not even think he’s playing well, but when a player can pick up the points while not on top of his shit, you have to know there’s a lot of head room.

Hughes sucked his first year because he was built like a 13 year old female Romanian gymnast. If Laff were half as good of a skater as Hughes he wouldn’t be struggling so much.

 

[haohmaru]

But that’s the thing: 1OA players are normally spoon fed the PP and top line minutes and responsibilities… BEFORE they earn it. Laf and Hughes each scored 21 points their rookie years. Laf played five games less and 4. Inures less a game. Hughes was given PP1 time from the get go. That’s why he had 21 points. At EV strength Laf outscored Hughes 21 to 12, again in fewer games and minutes. Don’t give me nonsense about how Hughes EARNED that usage, Laf was the more effective rookie. It’s a matter of Hughes getting the traditional minutes, usage and responsibility that 1OA picks normally get.
Expecting the traditional development arc for a 1OA pick without the traditional 1OA treatment as far as usage and responsibility is frankly IRRATIONAL. Why would you expect the same development.

He’s 5th on the team in EV ice time and 6th (one point from tied for 3rd) in EV scoring. The difference between his scoring and every other forward except the two stars, Zib and Bread, is power play time.

Cant have our cake and eat it too. We want traditional 1OA development, we need to give him the traditional treatment 1OA picks get. You do t think it’s good to break up the PP? Okay, I see the logic there, but then we can’t whine about his slow development. This is not a really difficult concept.

How has his even strength scoring been over the last month or so?

Jimmy Vesey has more goals than he does. So does Gauthier.

SEVEN of his even strength points are SECONDARY assists.

I'm not whining about anything and want nothing but the best for him and the team. When I see Hughes doing what he does on the ice and I compare with Lafreniere then I come to the conclusion there really is no comparison. I don't see flashes from Lafreniere at all. Do you? Do you think that's because of 2-3 minutes of ice time and PP time that's missing? Sure, that can create confidence but it can also make things worse if he doesn't produce or makes mistakes.

He needs to figure it out with the opportunities that are given. I hope he does.

 

[bhamill]

Hughes sucked his first year because he was built like a 13 year old female Romanian gymnast. If Laff were half as good of a skater as Hughes he wouldn’t be struggling so much.

And now he’s built like a Romanian wrestler? Hughes’ game depends very little on size and strength. Laf’s game does to a much higher extent. His game was never speed and shiftiness. But despite Hughes’ struggles, no matter the reason, they spoon fed him what he needed to develop traditionally.
BTW you didn’t refute anything I said. Just made an excuse for Hughes’ rookie year being inferior to our bust’s.

How has his even strength scoring been over the last month or so?

Jimmy Vesey has more goals than he does. So does Gauthier.

SEVEN of his even strength points are SECONDARY assists.

I'm not whining about anything and want nothing but the best for him and the team. When I see Hughes doing what he does on the ice and I compare with Lafreniere then I come to the conclusion there really is no comparison. I don't see flashes from Lafreniere at all. Do you? Do you think that's because of 2-3 minutes of ice time and PP time that's missing? Sure, that can create confidence but it can also make things worse if he doesn't produce or makes mistakes.

He needs to figure it out with the opportunities that are given. I hope he does.

Cherry picking down periods is as bad as doing it for scoring streaks. His EV scoring on the entire half season tracks just fine DESPITE the last month. The point remains: we can’t expect traditional development while giving untraditional lesser opportunity. Or RATIONALLY expect it at least.

 

[Rybo]

Seems like there just a bunch of people who are frustrated he’s not an elite talent on his ELC and expected him to be, so they’re ready to move on from him. They’re just not willing to wait for it and aren’t seeing enough flashes to justify any type of patience. I too am frustrated with his game right now and worry about his future. But it’s just crazy to give up on the kid at this point with all the context associated with his development.

Context is something we’ve lost the ability to appreciate, as a society.

There is no context for being the worst first overall since Yakupov

Please stop making excuses for him, its honestly making the entire fanbase look bad now

 

[haohmaru]

Cherry picking down periods is as bad as doing it for scoring streaks. His EV scoring on the entire half season tracks just fine DESPITE the last month. The point remains: we can’t expect traditional development while giving untraditional lesser opportunity. Or RATIONALLY expect it at least.

Who is cherry picking? The guy has 5 goals in, what, 42 games? That's reality. That's not cherry picking. He's on pace for 9 goals.

The point about the last month isn't even strength scoring stats, it's about taking a guy who is struggling like that and putting him on the top line to continue struggling makes no sense. And, what are you going to tell your 2OA who busted his ass to get there again? Sorry?

The onus is on Lafreniere to start playing like a 1OA. The training wheels need to come off and he needs to get his head straight.

 

[Greg02]

Maybe I'm being willfully ignorant but I really struggle to believe that players need to be spoon fed opportunities to develop. If undrafted players can work their way up the ladder into stars, and late first rounders can develop on playoff teams, why can't an ostensibly more talented player do the same?