Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

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I keep hearing how more ice time and he'll morph into the guy we thought we drafted. There wasn't much to see with him on the PP and playing 20+ minutes. Maybe he needs 30 minutes?

The truth is he needs to fix it in his head first.
I watched the game and paid attention to him. I thought he had a good game, good going to the front of the net, good finding openings down low, nice deflection that required a monster save, and forced Suter to take a penalty with an outside in move coming down the boards. Again, the sort of minutes he is getting at the moment are good for his development, but that doesn’t mean INSTANT development. It takes consistency of that sort of responsibility and quality of minutes. It takes more than one game. Hahaha.
But I agree he also needs to fix it in his head. Absolutely.
 
There is a big difference in saying it will "Help him develop" than "morphing into a superstar player suddenly"

And again, we know he is a work in progress. This is how you get better, by playing. If he doesn't' get better by next year, then we can start panicking.

I didn't say "morph into a superstar player", I said morph into the guy we thought we were drafting. Personally, I wasn't expecting a super high end forward but the guy looks completely lost out there. And, again, I'm rooting for him. I'm not sure that thrusting him into Kreider's role is the way to get him out of this.

I watched the game and paid attention to him. I thought he had a good game, good going to the front of the net, good finding openings down low, nice deflection that required a monster save, and forced Suter to take a penalty with an outside in move coming down the boards. Again, the sort of minutes he is getting at the moment are good for his development, but that doesn’t mean INSTANT development. It takes consistency of that sort of responsibility and quality of music. It takes more than one game. Hahaha.
But I agree he also needs to fix it in his head. Absolutely.

I keyed on him as well. I thought he was okay.

I mean, if we're going to do this to spur growth then it should be against bottom feeders whether Kreider is healthy or not. Throw him out there against the Montreal's of the world on the first line and hopefully he can produce. I wouldn't do it against the A-listers.
 
I keyed on him as well. I thought he was okay.

I mean, if we're going to do this to spur growth then it should be against bottom feeders whether Kreider is healthy or not. Throw him out there against the Montreal's of the world on the first line and hopefully he can produce. I wouldn't do it against the A-listers.
From your mouth to GG’s ears. I’m all for doing this when situations allow for it.
 
I'll give the Cult of Laf this.

The only blame I can lay on the organization for the development of our young players, is that we don't play a system that these kids have grown up playing. The game is faster and the types of players you're getting today will walk all over you in the neutral zone, right into the O-zone. For as long as I can remember, the Rangers play this excruciatingly slow dump and chase game that seems to be followed by whatever coach we get. I don't understand it. We have these young, fast (not Laf) players with the speed and hands to walk across the blue line and make plays, but the boards are our main offensive weapon. They're forced to play a different system and pace than what they've played in juniors (or for however long they've played) and it takes them so long to get used to this. I wish we had a system that caters to faster plays and wasn't reliant on the boards and our D-men controlling the play. That's the only organizational change I'd make. Otherwise, it's on the players to adjust.
 
I'll give the Cult of Laf this.
hahahaha. This is a weird take. Out of curiosity, has anyone on here been saying he’s playing better than “okay”? Because I haven’t seen it. And I certainly don’t think he is.
Anyway, CULT: He’s a 21 year old kid who is not playing well, is behind in development and isn’t getting the usage and responsibility most 1OA picks get. Still his stats are easily tracking well on the team. I think there’s a good chance he becomes a team cornerstone with time.
And NON-CULT: He stinks, he does nothing well, stats don’t matter he looks bad, he’s a bust/career 4th liner/bottom sixer. He’s done developing at 21.25 years and 180 NHL games. All the scouts were wrong.
Checks out. Hahahaha.

It's hard to be sandpaper when your skating doesn't let you keep up with the play.
I think it’s hiding with his confidence. He does throw a hit or two and is unafraid to go to the dirty areas, BUT he was far more abrasive past seasons.
 
hahahaha. This is a weird take. Out of curiosity, has anyone on here been saying he’s playing better than “okay”? Because I haven’t seen it. And I certainly don’t think he is.
Anyway, CULT: He’s a 21 year old kid who is not playing well, is behind in development and isn’t getting the usage and responsibility most 1OA picks get. Still his stats are easily tracking well on the team. I think there’s a good chance he becomes a team cornerstone with time.
And NON-CULT: He stinks, he does nothing well, stats don’t matter he looks bad, he’s a bust/career 4th liner/bottom sixer. He’s done developing at 21.25 years and 180 NHL games. All the scouts were wrong.
Checks out. Hahahaha.


I think it’s hiding with his confidence. He does throw a hit or two and is unafraid to go to the dirty areas, BUT he was far more abrasive past seasons.

I've never said he's a bust. However, he's sure as shit a bottom 6 player. Who are you tracking his stats against? His draft class? Other 21 year olds? 20 year olds? When it comes to usage and responsibility, why is a kid that has looked undeveloped since his first game in the NHL, the exception? Guys around his age that aren't even in the realm of 1OAs are getting it done. I'm not against Laf being an NHL player, I'm just against him being spoon fed. He needs to put in the work, ESPECIALLY in the off-season to earn the spots you guys want to give him blindly.

Oh, and FYI, he's less abrasive because in past seasons he's had more penalty minutes than points on the board. Certainly sounds like a 1OA to me!
 
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I've never said he's a bust. However, he's sure as shit a bottom 6 player. Who are you tracking his stats against? His draft class? Other 21 year olds? 20 year olds? When it comes to usage and responsibility, why is a kid that has looked undeveloped since his first game in the NHL, the exception? Guys around his age that aren't even in the realm of 1OAs are getting it done. I'm not against Laf being an NHL player, I'm just against him being spoon fed. He needs to put in the work, ESPECIALLY in the off-season to earn the spots you guys want to give him blindly.

Oh, and FYI, he's less abrasive because in past seasons he's had more penalty minutes than points on the board. Certainly sounds like a 1OA to me!
Fair enough, I wasn’t trying to say YOU said that. My apologies if it came across that way.
there was a whole conversation on these boards today about his stats.
Basically, he’s fifth in EV playing time and 6th in EV scoring. Only Panarin and Zib are clearly ahead of him. Everyone else ahead is within a point. Hence “tracking well on the team” considering his usage. H’s one point from tied for third. Also you won’t catch me saying he doesn’t need off season work, and I haven’t said he SHOULD be handed anything. Just without the traditional usage and responsibility given a 1OA, I reasonably don’t expect the traditional numbers and development arc of a 1OA… I don’t think thats particularly nuts. You can’t have it both ways. You want traditional development? They need to give him the traditional “spoon feeding”. If you don’t want to give him that it’s not rational to expect the same development curve.
 
Fair enough, I wasn’t trying to say YOU said that. My apologies if it came across that way.
there was a whole conversation on these boards today about his stats.
Basically, he’s fifth in EV playing time and 6th in EV scoring. Only Panarin and Zib are clearly ahead of him. Everyone else ahead is within a point. Hence “tracking well on the team” considering his usage. H’s one point from tied for third. Also you won’t catch me saying he doesn’t need off season work, and I haven’t said he SHOULD be handed anything. Just without the traditional usage and responsibility given a 1OA, I reasonably don’t expect the traditional numbers and development arc of a 1OA… I don’t think thats particularly nuts. You can’t have it both ways. You want traditional development? They need to give him the traditional “spoon feeding”. If you don’t want to give him that it’s not rational to expect the same development curve.
Unfortunate for you and for Lafreniere, there is an entire game outside EV advanced stats
 
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I remember everyone saying NY didnt have the stomach for a rebuild, for years. Then the lettter came out, everyone was excited, i knew it wouldn't last. We've got a 21 year old kid everyone is writing off, guys are trading Othmann, Robertson and Garand on here. The people that said new york fans cant handle a rebuild were right.
 
Give me a break. If Laf showed the confidence, skills, and hands to command the PP, he would've been out there a long time ago. Frankly, I would put Kakko out there before him. HELL, I'd f***ing put tall ass Miller out in CK's spot. I don't know why it's so hard to grasp that you have to show that you can play at the level you guys want him to play with the time he has first. No one has been spoon fed on the Rangers. Not Kakko, not Miller, not Chy, not anyone. 1OA shouldn't guarantee that you play at the top. 1OA guarantees that you have a shot to play at the top. That's it. Earn it. That's it. That's all I want him to do is look like the Top 6 player you guys are trying to force him to be.
I have to agree with this. That said, these young forwards are at a bit of a disadvantage. On any other team, or most any other team, they all would likely be playing in the top six and getting PP time. Here with Panarin, Zibad, Kreids (now a 50 goal scorer) and Trocheck with his new contract, they just don't have room for them. And that will cost them valuable minutes. Gallant made mention of this recently. Unfortunately for them, Turk has to put the best lineup out there in order to get wins.
 
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I commented on another thread how we pit our young players against each other in these discussions. I do not get it and I dislike it. Hahaha. What does how Laf is being treated (which frankly isn't all that kindly) have to do with how K'Andre was treated? It just strikes me so weird that we feel we need to run down one prospect of ours to elevate another...
Personally I feel anyone who was declaring Miller a bust in his first couple of years is a knob. It's just a shitty look to be so negative about players that are really still just kids. The people who were calling Kakko and Chytil busts are starting to look like knobs now too, and I fully expect the same thing as far as some of these Laf (and Kravtsov) takes go: "career 4th liner/bottom sixer" "BUST!" "Trade him for ANYTHING while we can!" about a consensus 1OA player who is just 3 months past his 21st birthday...
When Othmann doesn't set the NHL on fire next year we are going to hear the same shit... and so it goes.
Yup. We know what a bust looks like when we watch them play. Was obvious early on that Lias Andersson was a bust. Same goes for Dylan McIlraith, Al Montoya, Hugh Jessiman, etc. The rest of our young crop has shown signs or has evolved into above average players. Laf will get there. Kakko will get there. Kravy, if given a chance, will get there. How long did it take our impact forwards to be where they are today? At least 5 seasons for Mika, who was a 6OA. Probably 8-9 for Kreider. Several years for Trochek. Panarin wasnt drafted. Chytil, 5 years. Kakko, 4 years, and he is still a little behind where we envisioned him to be in 4 years when we drafted him. Just let time and experience do what it does.
 
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I don't understand the Laf haters. They want to bury him in the depth chart, but they don't want to trade him because what if he goes off?

It's like they want him to turn into another replaceable third line grinder.
Seems like there just a bunch of people who are frustrated he’s not an elite talent on his ELC and expected him to be, so they’re ready to move on from him. They’re just not willing to wait for it and aren’t seeing enough flashes to justify any type of patience. I too am frustrated with his game right now and worry about his future. But it’s just crazy to give up on the kid at this point with all the context associated with his development.

Context is something we’ve lost the ability to appreciate, as a society.
 
Seems like there just a bunch of people who are frustrated he’s not an elite talent on his ELC and expected him to be, so they’re ready to move on from him. They’re just not willing to wait for it and aren’t seeing enough flashes to justify any type of patience. I too am frustrated with his game right now and worry about his future. But it’s just crazy to give up on the kid at this point with all the context associated with his development.

Context is something we’ve lost the ability to appreciate, as a society.
This is such a lazy take, I dislike it almost as much as I dislike 13.
 
He also gets more OZS's than pretty much every forward on the team.

And no, he's not god awful, but he has been pretty bad for over a month. No goals. One point in seven games and he's getting rewarded with Kreider's spot on the PP. It makes little sense.
He’s a 21 year old kid who can’t be sent to the minors without waivers. Not ideal, but it is what it is. Giving him more TOI to work through a tough stretch is exactly what any young player needs. And beyond that, it’s in our best interest to get him going. Next two games are decent opportunities for him to find a rhythm and a bit of confidence.

KAndre looked pretty mediocre to start the year. Kakko, Schneider and Chytil have all slumped here and there this year. Patience will pay dividends in this case far more than anything else.

This is such a lazy take, I dislike it almost as much as I dislike 13.
Says the guy with the Kovalev avatar…
 
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Unfortunate for you and for Lafreniere, there is an entire game outside EV advanced stats
How is it unfortunate for me? Unfortunate for Laf that he hasn’t been utilized on the PP, sure. Unfortunate for you that you don’t understand that EV IS the largest part of the game and the “entire game” outside of EV is the much smaller part, and that goals and assists are not exactly ”advanced stats”…
 
I remember everyone saying NY didnt have the stomach for a rebuild, for years. Then the lettter came out, everyone was excited, i knew it wouldn't last. We've got a 21 year old kid everyone is writing off, guys are trading Othmann, Robertson and Garand on here. The people that said new york fans cant handle a rebuild were right.
A couple of things.

1. You can’t make this statement in good faith. This team did not rebuild. They lucked into two top draft choices while being good. It is much, much harder to be patient with said draft picks when the team is going to the ECF (and likely winning Cups) if the kids were as good as they were billed to be.

2. I’ve been screaming this from the rooftops since day one. Patience is a virtue, and these kids certainly deserve it to an extent, but people who are preaching it are continuing to ignore the FACT that both Laf and Kakko, but particularly Laf, we’re billed as IMMEDIATE impact players that simply could not fail.

Laf may very well turn it around. I would be praying for him to do so if I was a praying kinda guy.

The thing that is hard to swallow is that he does not look like a top player. He does not look like a guy that just needs to work on a couple of things before he takes off. He struggles in virtually every aspect of the game. This is beyond troubling for a prospect that, again, was not supposed to need several years to make an impact.

Remember what we drafted.
 
The problem, again, isn’t whether we dislike Laf, it’s the timing. Waiting for him to take a 6 year path to being a top six NHLer doesn’t align with the timeline the team committed itself to when giving Shesterkin the extension they did and deciding to keep Kreider, invest in Trochek, etc.

So Laf becomes a 65 point player in year 6 and but everyone else is now 33-35 years old? Right now, it’s a total toss up whether Laf succeeds or not, but as a 1OA pick who has played behind a lot of veterans, there’s still a perception that a fresh start somewhere with a larger role could be what he needs and so he still has some value as a trade asset. And while a 60-70 point player has value for us as well, if he does get there, it isn’t a franchise altering talent we’re going to kick ourselves forever over if we move on. He isn’t going to become a 100 point star. It’s a 50/50 he becomes a legitimate top six player. A 60-70 point top six player ON their ELC while the vets are still productive makes the team a contender. A 60-70 point player 3 years from now just replaces some of the production of the veterans slowing down.

Either we want to win with Zib, Panarin, Kreider, Trochek, Shesty - in which case the luxury of patience isn’t really there for Laf, because we need someone who is contributing more NOW - or we want to win with Laf, Kakko, etc. 3-5 years from now. Considering Laf and Kakko are beyond unlikely to be as good as or have the same impact as Zib and Bread, that’s not a plan I would invest too heavily in. But if that’s the path, we should probably start talking to all of the vet’s agents about waiving their NMCs.

But since the kids in the system are very unlikely to adequately replace the contributions of the veterans here currently, and Shesty is in his prime on a contract we can afford, we should probably be going for it now, over the next 2-3 years. In that case, patience just doesn’t really fit the team’s structure.


It’s not about liking the kid or disliking the kid or not realizing he COULD break out. It’s about being realistic about where we are. We have a core that is good but needs more contribution and help CURRENTLY to get over the hump and contend. We’re relatively close. It would be sort of silly not to try to get there. Whether you agree or disagree that Laf may break out - even that it would really suck if he became a 75 point player somewhere else after we gave up on him - the question is:

Would we rather waste the prime of Zib, Kreider, Shesty and the remainder of Bread’s 12M contract but have a 60% chance of having a 70 point winger in 3 years?

OR

Go for it while Zib, Kreider and Shesty are prime, Bread hasn’t fallen off a cliff and Fox is playing like a Norris candidate at the expense of POSSIBLY having a 70 point winger in 3 years?

I mean, on the defending Laf side, does anyone actually think this kid has 90-100 point potential still? We’re going to trade him and he’s going to go from what he is now to Marner or Rantanen? He’s more likely to become Bryan Rust (look at his numbers before knee jerk responses, k thx). Is it really SO egregious to let a potential Bryan Rust go in order to try and go for a Cup?
 
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I keep hearing how more ice time and he'll morph into the guy we thought we drafted. There wasn't much to see with him on the PP and playing 20+ minutes. Maybe he needs 30 minutes?

The truth is he needs to fix it in his head first.
One game makes/breaks his career...? How many PP goals did everyone else on the team score in that game? Zero, right. The PP1 is 22.5%. They would have needed a few more PP opportunities to score a goal based on their percentage. You're judging this kid based on ONE game of getting some PP1 time? That's not how it works. You need a far FAR larger sample size. Kreider has 4 PP goals this season. Panarin has 2. How many PP opportunities has this team had? According to statmuse 138. In 138 PP opportunities Kreider scored 4 times. Panarin 2. And you're giving Laf shit because he didn't score on 4? A real sample size would be Lafreniere being on PP1 for all 82 games of the season like some of us have been saying. Real opportunities aren't a few games. It's the same darn thing for his usage at 5v5. You can't give him a few games with Zibanejad and then jerk him around and drop him to the 3rd and 4th lines and get him 11 minutes and expect THAT to be the opportunities. That's not how it works. All the other players he's always compared against have had sustained large sample sized opportunities in big spots, Lafreniere HAS NOT. And despite all that what he HAS shown over a large enough sample size is that despite his shit usage by this shit coach is he is one of the team's best EV producers. Despite limited usage. Despite being jerked around the lineup. Despite the shit ATOI.
 
The problem, again, isn’t whether we dislike Laf, it’s the timing. Waiting for him to take a 6 year path to being a top six NHLer doesn’t align with the timeline the team committed itself to when giving Shesterkin the extension they did and deciding to keep Kreider, invest in Trochek, etc.

So Laf becomes a 65 point player in year 6 and but everyone else is now 33-35 year old. At this point it’s a total toss up whether Laf succeeds or not, but as a 1OA pick who has played behind a lot of veterans, there’s still a perception that a fresh start somewhere with a larger role could be what he needs and so he still has some value as a trade asset. And while a 60-70 point player has value for us as well, if he does get there, it isn’t a franchise altering talent we’re going to kick ourselves forever over if we move on. He isn’t going to become a 100 point star. It’s a 50/50 he becomes a legitimate top six player. A 60-70 point top six player ON their ELC while the vets are still productive makes the team a contender. A 60-70 point player 3 years from now just replaces some of the production of the veterans slowing down.

Either we want to win with Zib, Panarin, Kreider, Trochek, Shesty - in which case the luxury of patience isn’t really there for Laf, because we need someone who is contributing more NOW - or we want to win with Laf, Kakko, etc. 3-5 years from now. Considering Laf and Kakko are beyond unlikely to be as good as or have the same impact as Zib and Bread, that’s not a plan I would invest too heavily in. But if that’s the path, we should probably start talking to all of the vet’s agents about waiving their NMCs.

But since the kids in the system are very unlikely to adequately replace the contributions of the veterans here currently, and Shesty is in his prime on a contract we can afford, we should probably be going for it now, over the next 2-3 years. In that case, patience just doesn’t really fit the team’s structure.


It’s not about liking the kid or disliking the kid or not realizing he COULD break out. It’s about being realistic about where we are. We have a core that is good but needs more contribution and help CURRENTLY to get over the hump and contend. We’re relatively close. It would be sort of silly not to try to get there. Whether you agree or disagree that Laf may break out - even that it would really suck if he became a 75 point player somewhere else after we gave up on him - the question is:

Would we rather waste the prime of Zib, Kreider, Shesty and the remainder of Bread’s 12M contract but have a 60% chance of having a 70 point winger in 3 years?

OR

Go for it while Zib, Kreider and Shesty are prime, Bread hasn’t fallen off a cliff and Fox is playing like a Norris candidate at the expense of POSSIBLY having a 70 point winger in 3 years?

I mean, on the defending Laf side, does anyone actually think this kid has 90-100 point potential still? We’re going to trade him and he’s going to go from what he is now to Marner or Rantanen? He’s more likely to become Bryan Rust (look at his numbers before knee jerk responses, k thx). Is it really SO egregious to let a potential Bryan Rust go in order to try and go for a Cup?
This is a wonderful post, quite honestly. And does a good job of showing why many in the organization do have the “win now” mindset.

While I’m personally more inclined to try to develop the kid long term, if it comes at the expense of a Cup right now, it’s probably a bad choice. Especially if his ceiling is a 60 point player (or less). The corollary though is what if you move him and the return doesn’t get this organization over the hump to win a Cup? That’s a disastrous scenario for Drury, even if the kids turns into just an above average player.

If you move him and win a Cup, it’s worth it. If you move him and don’t, it’s a disaster. If you move him and he doesn’t develop, it’s worth it. If you move him and he does, it’s not.

I’m not sure Drury is going to want to stick his neck out on the line either way. Holding the status quo is the safer choice for him, while trying to build a contender without moving Laf.
 
One game makes/breaks his career...? How many PP goals did everyone else on the team score in that game? Zero, right. The PP1 is 22.5%. They would have needed a few more PP opportunities to score a goal based on their percentage. You're judging this kid based on ONE game of getting some PP1 time? That's not how it works. You need a far FAR larger sample size. Kreider has 4 PP goals this season. Panarin has 2. How many PP opportunities has this team had? According to statmuse 138. In 138 PP opportunities Kreider scored 4 times. Panarin 2. And you're giving Laf shit because he didn't score on 4? A real sample size would be Lafreniere being on PP1 for all 82 games of the season like some of us have been saying. Real opportunities aren't a few games. It's the same darn thing for his usage at 5v5. You can't give him a few games with Zibanejad and then jerk him around and drop him to the 3rd and 4th lines and get him 11 minutes and expect THAT to be the opportunities. That's not how it works. All the other players he's always compared against have had sustained large sample sized opportunities in big spots, Lafreniere HAS NOT. And despite all that what he HAS shown over a large enough sample size is that despite his shit usage by this shit coach is he is one of the team's best EV producers. Despite limited usage. Despite being jerked around the lineup. Despite the shit ATOI.

He hasn't done anything to merit being there - especially over the last month. You're taking a kid that's struggling and thrusting him into the top 6 and not considering that that line also plays against the other team's best players. If he's this fantastic player waiting to happen then he should excel against other team's third lines and stand out. He doesn't.

As far as comparing him to the other 1OA's of the universe - he was drafted by a good team that has better players ahead of him. He also can't, for whatever reason, transition to the RW where he would've gotten a good long look in the top 6. He's playing on a team with expectations of that team going deep in the playoffs. Hughes, Dahlin, etc... all got huge minutes on shit teams. Lafreniere isn't on a shit team. He's also a "lower tier" 1OA - he's not expected to by Matthews or McDavid.

He's 5th on the team in even strength ice time. He's not some schlub buried on the fourth line getting low minutes.
 
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