Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[will1066]

You aren’t wrong. However it is particularly frustrating because I thought with “the letter” and the decision to actually be sellers I thought maybe, just maybe, the franchise had developed the self awareness to realize that their typical approach does not work.

Call me naive I guess. I thought that maybe they finally decided to look in the mirror, let the results (1 Cup in 80+ years despite all the financial resources in the world) speak for themselves, and realize that the “NYR way” will never work.

But it turns out that was yet another PR campaign.

I think, for me, the players are a combination of products of their environment and of themselves. Seemingly solid players come here and become soft. It happens over and over. The intentions behind the letter were good, I believe that. Something is amiss in the execution and the culture here. Beta personalities among your vet leadership group. No captain for, what, 3 years? Then they pick one, and he spirals. As did many here not named Messier.
Shooting off the cuff, if you bring in ROR or Parayko or some other hardass around the league onto this team and into this culture, he will go soft here.

 

[irishlaxburger2]

I just want to know what the organization is doing to try to turn things around. Laf is a non-factor in year three. Fans are hanging onto signs that Chytil and Kakko “might be” breaking out in their fifth and fourth years, respectively. Kravtsov finally just learned how to take a regular shift five years after being drafted. This is a pants on fire situation that should warrant clearing house and bringing in an entirely new coaching staff that is dedicated to getting the kids going. Because without them there is no foreseeable future. Instead, the organization simply dumps their crown jewels onto the third line and leaves them to their own devices.

It’s quite obviously an organizational issue and not an individual player one.

If Laf gets traded, he goes on an immediate Kirby Dach trajectory. We just have zero patience as an organization and would much rather give opportunity to other players than allow youngsters to grow via taking lumps on the 1st line/PP.

 

[Mandar]

Garbage coaches and an ass backwards organization that won't give him top line and top PP minutes. It's pretty simple. All the top young players in the league were put in positions to be "the guy" and then they became "the guy". Put the player on the 3rd line, limit his ice time, dont give him any meaningful special teams time, and bench and scratch him every time he makes a simple mistake and you get where we are with laf.

What the f*** do people want from this kid realistically? He's still producing 5v5. He gets shit ice time.

And the blaming him for a loss against NJ when he's in the role hes in is f***ing embarrassing when there's a guy getting 11 mil to be "the guy" and Zibanejad and Kreider acted like a little bitch half the season because they didn't get the 'C'. Trocheck who has the same EV points as Lafreniere despite consistently playing with aforementioned 11 mil man. What's his excuse? Don't blame these guys... blame the 21 year old who hasn't been put in a position to grow at all.

Joke.

So, do you think he should be on PP1?

 

[TheDirtyH]

A lot of short term memories here. Kakko is on a bit of heater currently and finally shows he and the high-price vets can play together. This wasn't the case not too long ago. It's nice to see Kakko succeeding, but I'm keeping it real. After the kid line looked so great in the playoffs, we all thought the trio would immediately pick up where they left off. Kakko required half a season to get going again instead. Chytil is now finally able to remain healthy for a while, knock on wood. Let's not forget that the kid line was put together because blended top 6 lines of vets and kids never worked consistently enough in the first place.

Id disagree with this. Kakko started the season very well and has been maybe our most consistent forward all year. He didn't have the points until lately. And this is what gets me with a lot of the conversation with these kids. When the points are there, it's not about points it's about flashes. When the play is great and the points aren't there, it's about points. Obv I'd also like to see both things happening at once more consistently but it's not a reasonable way to evaluate, moving the goal posts all the time. Kakkos been pretty great all year, except maybe the stretch he was back on the kid line (wasn't the start of the year).

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

this was something i don't remember where i heard or saw it.

while GG was coaching the panthers, barkov was rooming with jagr. so it was at night and i think they already had played a game. barkov is getting dressed up for a night on the town and he sees jagr getting his hockey equipment to leave.
barkov: "where you going with all that? it's late."
jagr: "going to the rink and practice so i can be great."

after that they both started to practice at nights.

 

[Ori]

What happend since 2014 final - they gave Tampa Bay some cups with Ryan Mc. trade and thats about it, and some good drafting based on the market since 8.5 mil live in NY. Im glad I watch fotball Arsenal

Anyway it is not easy to win NHL so topics like coaching and player development become crucial, and maybe they rebuild too quick since MSL coaching Canadians now and he was a player back in 2014. I also thought a complete rebuild was necessary at the time, and not just a quick fix and hope for the best..
It will be interesting to see if Detroit will manage a new cup run with their current GM Steve.

 

[will1066]

Id disagree with this. Kakko started the season very well and has been maybe our most consistent forward all year. He didn't have the points until lately. And this is what gets me with a lot of the conversation with these kids. When the points are there, it's not about points it's about flashes. When the play is great and the points aren't there, it's about points. Obv I'd also like to see both things happening at once more consistently but it's not a reasonable way to evaluate, moving the goal posts all the time. Kakkos been pretty great all year, except maybe the stretch he was back on the kid line (wasn't the start of the year).

It's true that we evaluate them like we do here. But it's based on what we can see. The coaching staff have other criteria and other reasons for moving them on and off the vets and in and out of the lineup. Criteria that we don't know and criteria Gallant will never make public. Doesn't mean their criteria is right. It might be misguided, but it's theirs and we can't do anything about it. Gallant puts Kravtsov on the second line after he said that he felt the kid was finally ready. Despite not producing a whole ton.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Id disagree with this. Kakko started the season very well and has been maybe our most consistent forward all year. He didn't have the points until lately. And this is what gets me with a lot of the conversation with these kids. When the points are there, it's not about points it's about flashes. When the play is great and the points aren't there, it's about points. Obv I'd also like to see both things happening at once more consistently but it's not a reasonable way to evaluate, moving the goal posts all the time. Kakkos been pretty great all year, except maybe the stretch he was back on the kid line (wasn't the start of the year).

The bar is so low that everyone thinks he's getting lots of points lately, "on a heater", etc

He has 1 point in his last 3 games, 3 in his last 5. This guy was penciled in by everyone & their dog to be an immediate impact 65+pt rookie. We're in his 4th NHL season and people are getting excited about him producing at a 40-something pt pace in a tiny specific sample size. Even after this "heater" he's on pace for 36 points in his 4th NHL season. Playing on the first line. The production is still historically abysmal for a 2nd overall pick.

 

[duhmetreE]

this was something i don't remember where i heard or saw it.

while GG was coaching the panthers, barkov was rooming with jagr. so it was at night and i think they already had played a game. barkov is getting dressed up for a night on the town and he sees jagr getting his hockey equipment to leave.
barkov: "where you going with all that? it's late."
jagr: "going to the rink and practice so i can be great."

after that they both started to practice at nights.

It takes a special type of person to do that.... and right now, I just dont see that from this team save a few players.

Our two best forwards can't hit a net. Do you want to spend an extra hour or two training, to get better? or do you want to have a lavish dinner?

 

[LOFIN]

The bar is so low that everyone thinks he's getting lots of points lately, "on a heater", etc

He has 1 point in his last 3 games, 3 in his last 5. This guy was penciled in by everyone & their dog to be an immediate impact 65+pt rookie. We're in his 4th NHL season and people are getting excited about him producing at a 40-something pt pace in a tiny specific sample size. Even after this "heater" he's on pace for 36 points in his 4th NHL season. Playing on the first line. The production is still historically abysmal for a 2nd overall pick.

His even strength scoring is not horrible. Neither is Laf. Not great, but not abysmal. As long as him or anyone else of the kids are not getting meaningful powerplay time, you can shove those point totals to you know where.

 

[huerter]

It’s quite obviously an organizational issue and not an individual player one.

If Laf gets traded, he goes on an immediate Kirby Dach trajectory. We just have zero patience as an organization and would much rather give opportunity to other players than allow youngsters to grow via taking lumps on the 1st line/PP.

Grant Mccagg said like 2 days ago that he would trade Dach for Laf in a heartbeat.

We took a lump yesterday and everyone lost their S that we squandered a point.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

I think, for me, the players are a combination of products of their environment and of themselves. Seemingly solid players come here and become soft. It happens over and over. The intentions behind the letter were good, I believe that. Something is amiss in the execution and the culture here. Beta personalities among your vet leadership group. No captain for, what, 3 years? Then they pick one, and he spirals. As did many here not named Messier.
Shooting off the cuff, if you bring in ROR or Parayko or some other hardass around the league onto this team and into this culture, he will go soft here.

Kreider is the perfect example. He looked like Wilson checking guys with pure strength the first couple years. Then he started just hugging guys into the boards. Whether it was the league, officials, or the team. Someone convinced him to let up

 

[TheDirtyH]

The bar is so low that everyone thinks he's getting lots of points lately, "on a heater", etc

He has 1 point in his last 3 games, 3 in his last 5. This guy was penciled in by everyone & their dog to be an immediate impact 65+pt rookie. We're in his 4th NHL season and people are getting excited about him producing at a 40-something pt pace in a tiny specific sample size. Even after this "heater" he's on pace for 36 points in his 4th NHL season. Playing on the first line. The production is still historically abysmal for a 2nd overall pick.

Truly, it's always a surprise to hear you chime in on the bar being so low for praising underperforming, disappointing top ten picks

 

[TheDirtyH]

It's true that we evaluate them like we do here. But it's based on what we can see. The coaching staff have other criteria and other reasons for moving them on and off the vets and in and out of the lineup. Criteria that we don't know and criteria Gallant will never make public. Doesn't mean their criteria is right. It might be misguided, but it's theirs and we can't do anything about it. Gallant puts Kravtsov on the second line after he said that he felt the kid was finally ready. Despite not producing a whole ton.

You're right. And I'm not here to say anything positive about Lafreniere (I'm also a life long ranger fan), just pointing out that the ruts stand out so much because the peaks aren't that high--and that we can choose to evaluate based on how high the peaks are, or how consistently the kids are a net positive rather than in a rut. Laf is in a rut, Kakko has been good all year.

 

[will1066]

Kreider is the perfect example. He looked like Wilson checking guys with pure strength the first couple years. Then he started just hugging guys into the boards. Whether it was the league, officials, or the team. Someone convinced him to let up

I agree. I've always felt that he took it down a notch or two following all the penalties for being too strong and wrecking other players. There are likely people who told him.

 

[LokiDog]

This isn’t to compare the two or put down one or the other. It’s for perspective.

Alexis Lafreniere has 17 EVP averaging 14:51 TOI through 40 games. 13:38 at EV, 1:09 on the PP, 0:03 SH per game.

Dawson Mercer has 17 EVP averaging 15:24 TOI through 40 games. 13:00 at EV, 1:23 on the PP, 1:01 SH per game.

Same EV points, 38 less seconds per game spent at EV (25:20 total). 14 more seconds per game spent on the PP (9:20 total). Taking away SH time, Laf actually is on the ice for 24 more seconds per game. Mercer only slightly edges him on TOI because he PKs a bit.

So Mercer has produced the same EV as Laf, with 2x goals, in 25 less minutes of EV time, and has 3 more PP points than Laf does in 9 more minutes of PP time. Laf has had the edge in goals in the past.

Sounds like nearly identical players. Mercer is 26 days younger and was taken 17 slots later. Almost identical age, same draft.

That provides some decent perspective, I suppose. Mercer is on track to be a good 50-60 point player who may even have a couple of seasons in the high 60s/low 70s at his peak. If that’s what Laf is as well, so be it. That’s still a valuable guy to grow in your organization - but that’s basically a Kreider replacement. Mercer being that with the 18th pick for NJ is fine because they have Hughes as their face of the franchise 1OA.

Laf being that with the 1OA for us hurts because we really NEEDED one of Laf or KK to become that face of the franchise for the next 15 years, elite homegrown forward we’ve lacked.

That’s not to say that Laf growing into a 60 point physical winger doesn’t have value. If he’d been the 18th OA pick I think we’d all be thrilled with that. The problem is that some of us know - or feel - in our guts that even if Laf does become a very good, solid top six winger, it’s fairly clear he will never be a superstar, elite franchise player and basically, that’s the only way we were ever going to get one.

We can have patience with Laf and KK, but I think for some the resentment/disappointment stems from realizing we’re about to watch the Lundqvist era repeat itself nearly verbatim with us not ever having the elite young talent found at the top of the draft to get us over the hump. We may still come away with 2 pretty darn good players, but no elite talent. Again.

 

[TheDirtyH]

This isn’t to compare the two or put down one or the other. It’s for perspective.

Alexis Lafreniere has 17 EVP averaging 14:51 TOI through 40 games. 13:38 at EV, 1:09 on the PP, 0:03 SH per game.

Dawson Mercer has 17 EVP averaging 15:24 TOI through 40 games. 13:00 at EV, 1:23 on the PP, 1:01 SH per game.

Same EV points, 38 less seconds per game spent at EV (25:20 total). 14 more seconds per game spent on the PP (9:20 total).

So Mercer has produced the same EV as Laf, with 2x goals, in 25 less minutes of EV time, and has 3 more PP points than Laf does in 9 more minutes of PP time.

Sounds like nearly identical players. Mercer is 26 days younger and was taken 17 slots later.

That provides some decent perspective, I suppose. Mercer is on track to be a good 50-60 point player who may even have a couple of seasons in the high 60s/low 70s at his peak. If that’s what Laf is as well, so be it. That’s still a valuable guy to grow in your organization - but that’s basically a Kreider replacement. Mercer being that with the 18th pick for NJ is fine because they have Hughes as their face of the franchise 1OA.

Laf being that with the 1OA for us hurts because we really NEEDED one of Laf or KK to become that face of the franchise for the next 15 years, elite homegrown forward we’ve lacked. That’s not to say that Laf growing into a 60 point physical winger doesn’t have value. If he’d been the 18th OA pick I think we’d all be thrilled with that. The problem is that some of us know - or feel - in our guts that even if Laf does become a very good, solid top six winger, it’s fairly clear he will never be a superstar, elite franchise player and basically, that’s the only way we were ever going to get one. We can have patience with Laf and KK, but I think for some the resentment/disappointment stems from realizing we’re about to watch the Lundqvist era repeat itself nearly verbatim with us not ever having the elite young talent found at the top of the draft to get us over the hump. We may still come away with 2 pretty darn good players, but no elite talent. Again.

I'm sure the senators board is doing the same math and hating picking Stutzle over Mercer.

 

[LokiDog]

I'm sure the senators board is doing the same math and hating picking Stutzle over Mercer.

I feel like you’re missing the point. I’m not using Mercer to belittle Laf. I’m saying they’re nearly identical young players of the same age, from the same draft. If you take away draft position and say they were drafted 15/16 in the mid first, one after the other, they’d both be on pace to be nice homegrown complimentary wingers and both teams would be relatively happy with their guys.

What hurts us and will cause fans to feel disappointment, regardless of whether patience is warranted and Laf becomes a good player, is knowing deep down that we really needed a franchise changing elite forward from the draft because that’s the only way we would ever get one and own them throughout their prime years. We really needed one of our lottery picks to become our MacKinnon, or Hughes, or Barkov. Coming away with a 65 point physical winger in the draft is never bad. But the one thing this franchise has really always needed was that top of the draft order, franchise altering top offensive talent. Without it, we’ll watch the Lundqvist years repeat with Shesterkin in net, and the likelihood that we have a lottery pick again any time soon is slim.

 

[duhmetreE]

Truly, it's always a surprise to hear you chime in on the bar being so low for praising underperforming, disappointing top ten picks

 

[Synergy27]

It Laf was not a 1stOA pick there wouldn’t be this much criticism on him. Also, remember Mika was a 6thOA and he didn’t break out till he was 24-25 yo, and he did it on the Rangers. A lot of players have taken till their mid-20’a to really break out.

It’s frustrating with Laf no doubt but he still has time to develop and grow. I have also criticized him, rightfully so, but don’t think they should be giving up on this kid.

As per more mins, that’s not the answer. He has to earn it, like Kakko did.

I’m not sure where you are going with this. Of course there wouldn’t be as much criticism. But him being the 1OA, and a very highly touted one at that, is exactly the point. The bar is higher. Period.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about. This seems to be happening more (top picks failing) recently than it has in the past. I’m in my forties and really don’t want to make negative comments on younger generations as a whole, but it seems like there is a higher frequency of kids just not having the necessary drive to succeed.

Kids staying up late playing Xbox. Kids with very fragile mental health situations.

In the “real world”, it’s no longer expected for kids to start their life at 18. I have cousins in their 30s who still live with parents. They are seemingly the norm, not exceptions. This is anecdotal I know.

You can call me a boomer if you want. I get it. I’m just seeking an explanation for what’s shaping up to be yet another disappointment being a Ranger fan.

 

[will1066]

You're right. And I'm not here to say anything positive about Lafreniere (I'm also a life long ranger fan), just pointing out that the ruts stand out so much because the peaks aren't that high--and that we can choose to evaluate based on how high the peaks are, or how consistently the kids are a net positive rather than in a rut. Laf is in a rut, Kakko has been good all year.

I hear you. Good all year as in driving play and looking like a player despite not cashing in all the time.

 

[dangsLITE]

The bar is so low that everyone thinks he's getting lots of points lately, "on a heater", etc

He has 1 point in his last 3 games, 3 in his last 5. This guy was penciled in by everyone & their dog to be an immediate impact 65+pt rookie. We're in his 4th NHL season and people are getting excited about him producing at a 40-something pt pace in a tiny specific sample size. Even after this "heater" he's on pace for 36 points in his 4th NHL season. Playing on the first line. The production is still historically abysmal for a 2nd overall pick.

Agree he still has a long way to go.

He's consistently making plays that are leading to goals or dangerous scoring chances which is a big improvement, but he continues to be passive when he gets the puck and rarely looks like a threat to score individually. Someone like Martin Necas looks like a threat this season, and KK has overall more tools IMO. He needs to find a way to get himself in dangerous areas more consistently and also just shoot the f***ing puck. His "3rd" assist last night was a solid play with a good outcome, but that's still a situation where you want see him take the puck off the wall to the net himself if he is really supposed to be a star.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I feel like you’re missing the point. I’m not using Mercer to belittle Laf. I’m saying they’re nearly identical young players of the same age, from the same draft. If you take away draft position and say they were drafted 15/16 in the mid first, one after the other, they’d both be on pace to be nice homegrown complimentary wingers and both teams would be relatively happy with their guys.

What hurts us and will cause fans to feel disappointment, regardless of whether patience is warranted and Laf becomes a good player, is knowing deep down that we really needed a franchise changing elite forward from the draft because that’s the only way we would ever get one and own them throughout their prime years. We really needed one of our lottery picks to become our MacKinnon, or Hughes, or Barkov. Coming away with a 65 point physical winger in the draft is never bad. But the one thing this franchise has really always needed was that top of the draft order, franchise altering top offensive talent. Without it, we’ll watch the Lundqvist years repeat with Shesterkin in net, and the likelihood that we have a lottery pick again any time soon is slim.

Agreed I was just being snide for no reason, mostly a joke not an attack on your points. (This is how I deal with my frustration at this franchise.)

Frankly, the rangers went their own way, unconvinced that a traditional rebuild would bear fruits. They had two LWers signed to 18mil of their cap BEFORE they picked a LW 1OA. They let Jesper Fast walk for 2mil a year and signed Goodrow for double across six years. They cut Buchnevich at his highest value for nothing. They bought out a franchise icon and leader to retain a locker room cancer. They hired a "development coach" to force feed veterans and journeymen minutes across seasons where the fans had no expectations or need to be competitive.

You're not wrong that if Kakko and Lafreniere were superstars it'd be great. We also wouldn't be able to afford them, and I think it's still very much open to debate whether the rangers haven't made that potential much less likely for those two players throughout their time here. They may never have worked out like we hoped, but it's inarguable to me that the rangers never operated with that outcome as a priority or as though it was something they might have some influence on, or even that they'd be prepared to make work if it happened. That's where I get frustrated and disappointed. Plenty with the player, but I just can't be convinced it would've been different for a Hughes or a Stutzle here. Neither was playing ahead of Ryan motherf***ing Strome.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

This isn’t to compare the two or put down one or the other. It’s for perspective.

Alexis Lafreniere has 17 EVP averaging 14:51 TOI through 40 games. 13:38 at EV, 1:09 on the PP, 0:03 SH per game.

Dawson Mercer has 17 EVP averaging 15:24 TOI through 40 games. 13:00 at EV, 1:23 on the PP, 1:01 SH per game.

Same EV points, 38 less seconds per game spent at EV (25:20 total). 14 more seconds per game spent on the PP (9:20 total). Taking away SH time, Laf actually is on the ice for 24 more seconds per game. Mercer only slightly edges him on TOI because he PKs a bit.

So Mercer has produced the same EV as Laf, with 2x goals, in 25 less minutes of EV time, and has 3 more PP points than Laf does in 9 more minutes of PP time. Laf has had the edge in goals in the past.

Sounds like nearly identical players. Mercer is 26 days younger and was taken 17 slots later. Almost identical age, same draft.

That provides some decent perspective, I suppose. Mercer is on track to be a good 50-60 point player who may even have a couple of seasons in the high 60s/low 70s at his peak. If that’s what Laf is as well, so be it. That’s still a valuable guy to grow in your organization - but that’s basically a Kreider replacement. Mercer being that with the 18th pick for NJ is fine because they have Hughes as their face of the franchise 1OA.

Laf being that with the 1OA for us hurts because we really NEEDED one of Laf or KK to become that face of the franchise for the next 15 years, elite homegrown forward we’ve lacked.

That’s not to say that Laf growing into a 60 point physical winger doesn’t have value. If he’d been the 18th OA pick I think we’d all be thrilled with that. The problem is that some of us know - or feel - in our guts that even if Laf does become a very good, solid top six winger, it’s fairly clear he will never be a superstar, elite franchise player and basically, that’s the only way we were ever going to get one.

We can have patience with Laf and KK, but I think for some the resentment/disappointment stems from realizing we’re about to watch the Lundqvist era repeat itself nearly verbatim with us not ever having the elite young talent found at the top of the draft to get us over the hump. We may still come away with 2 pretty darn good players, but no elite talent. Again.

This is a great post. Much needed perspective for this thread. My only disagreement is, this team has way more talent that Hank ever had.

 

[xsniper11x]

I tell you one thing though. This whole experience w/ Laf (and Kakko) has taught me that when someone claims a prospect, who isn’t a high end skater, is hyped to be “NHL ready” out of the gate in today’s league, don’t believe them.

That player may very well be better in the long run. However in today’s NHL, if you need to rely on your strength and skill over speed, then you are not NHL ready and I’d argue not even close.