Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[Crease]

The team had two windows. One with the existing vets in their prime and the kids as secondary scorers. And one with the kids in their prime with a new supporting cast. The first window never really opened, because the kids didn’t ripen into secondary scorers during their ELC years.

 

[LokiDog]

Well put... I couldn't put it to words this way... i keep saying the timing is off on the way the rebuild went

But your way is more detailed and on the nose

I mean, after all the “too much doubt about health” and “Laf/Kakko could be better than Eichel himself” talk, Eichel has 54 points in 61 games since being traded and is above point per game this year. He just turned 26 (and is a center). Imagine moving Buch, Laf/KK, Lundkvist for Eichel? You’re replacing Blais, one of Laf/KK and a draft pick with a 26 year old 1C, bumping Zib to 2C and arguably having one of the best 1-2 center combos in the world. Due to their potential, we were gun shy about even considering that and not too long after, we have little to show for it and neither Laf nor KK even still have the value to be utilized in that type of trade.

We were way off on the timeline. I don’t even know whose fault it is, and I don’t think the organization is any good at developing prospects but I also think they are just two tremendously underwhelming and disappointing kids who have failed to meet their draft hype on their own merit, PP time and shit like that aside. That’s how we’re coping, but I really don’t think that Laf would be more than maybe 10 points better anywhere else. Put him on McDavid’s wing and he’s still probably a 50 point player. Not living up to 1OA hopes.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Who said the power play doesn’t count or that it’s not a huge part of the game? I definitely didn’t lol.

Rangers didn’t play a bad game at all last night overall and both goalies were insane. But you need to split up 5v5 and 5v4 because we have stunk 5v5 since Gallant got here and 5v5 offense is still the teams biggest issue. That shouldn’t surprise anyone because even strength hockey is very difficult and requires actual modern coaching. Its where Gallants old man philosophy, poor/nonexistent systems, and horrendous lineup/deployment choices consistently hurt this team.

Until this team can consistently just be AVERAGE at 5v5 (~50% xGF) then the formula is going to have to be great PP + Igor carrying which is not a good one.

The Rangers are currently at 51% xGF. I don't think they are that good 5v5 and they've been much worse the past 20 games or so. But they are actually above that 50% mark.

The team had two windows. One with the existing vets in their prime and the kids as secondary scorers. And one with the kids in their prime with a new supporting cast. The first window never really opened, because the kids didn’t ripen into secondary scorers during their ELC years.

And there might not be a second window because the kids aren't good enough.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I mean, after all the “too much doubt about health” and “Laf/Kakko could be better than Eichel himself” talk, Eichel has 54 points in 61 games since being traded and is above point per game this year. He just turned 26 (and is a center). Imagine moving Buch, Laf/KK, Lundkvist for Eichel? You’re replacing Blais, one of Laf/KK and a draft pick with a 26 year old 1C, bumping Zib to 2C and arguably having one of the best 1-2 center combos in the world. Due to their potential, we were gun shy about even considering that and not too long after, we have little to show for it and neither Laf nor KK even still have the value to be utilized in that type of trade.

We were way off on the timeline. I don’t even know whose fault it is, and I don’t think the organization is any good at developing prospects but I also think they are just two tremendously underwhelming and disappointing kids who have failed to meet their draft hype on their own merit, PP time and shit like that aside. That’s how we’re coping, but I really don’t think that Laf would be more than maybe 10 points better anywhere else. Put him on McDavid’s wing and he’s still probably a 50 point player. Not living up to 1OA hopes.

I don't really want to re-hash the EIchel debacle because Buffalo might have never traded him here anyway but yeah the prospect/young player hugging was ridiculous during that period. For a 25 year old superstar center locked up through his prime no one should be off the table.

 

[duhmetreE]

I mean, after all the “too much doubt about health” and “Laf/Kakko could be better than Eichel himself” talk, Eichel has 54 points in 61 games since being traded and is above point per game this year. He just turned 26 (and is a center). Imagine moving Buch, Laf/KK, Lundkvist for Eichel? You’re replacing Blais, one of Laf/KK and a draft pick with a 26 year old 1C, bumping Zib to 2C and arguably having one of the best 1-2 center combos in the world. Due to their potential, we were gun shy about even considering that and not too long after, we have little to show for it and neither Laf nor KK even still have the value to be utilized in that type of trade.

We were way off on the timeline. I don’t even know whose fault it is, and I don’t think the organization is any good at developing prospects but I also think they are just two tremendously underwhelming and disappointing kids who have failed to meet their draft hype on their own merit, PP time and shit like that aside. That’s how we’re coping, but I really don’t think that Laf would be more than maybe 10 points better anywhere else. Put him on McDavid’s wing and he’s still probably a 50 point player. Not living up to 1OA hopes.

Eichel would have been horrendous here IMO. At this point you need a self-led obsessed type. Schneider is the only kid I see that with.

Eichel has an asshole coach right now... from what I gathered, such an asshole that Boston quit on him/hated him.

We need an asshole. Someone to demand greatness/more from our players. Not a friend. They are short lived, but they are absolutely necessary.

Torts gave us a backbone imo. He served his purpose and laid the foundation. AV used that backbone and nearly won. IMO we need that backbone right now.

 

[LokiDog]

I don't really want to re-hash the EIchel debacle because Buffalo might have never traded him here anyway but yeah the prospect/young player hugging was ridiculous during that period. For a 25 year old superstar center locked up through his prime no one should be off the table.

Yeah, I barely wanted to mention it either but it was just meant as an example. Even PLD people didn’t want to give up CHYTIL for and he’s 24 years old (14 months older than Chytil) and posted 60 points last year and has 39 in 36 this year. The awareness regarding the age of our roster and timelines was brutal. Imagine swapping Trochek/Strome’s cap hit for PLD and having had him next to Panarin the past 2 years.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I mean there’s a lot of very good reasons why most teams that successfully built dominant sustained contenders through the draft don’t follow the blueprint that the NYR did.

No one else has tried to “win while rebuilding” to the extent the NYR did. Not fully tearing things down to studs. Aggressively pursuing pieces at the high end of the trade and UFA market.

Especially doing so BEFORE knowing what they had in the kids. Chicago didn’t add Marian Hossa because they drafted Ladd and Barker. They waited until Toews and Kane proved themselves. The Devils didn’t add Hamilton and Palat after drafting Zacha and McLeod. Etc. Etc.

NYR undertook quite the experiment. Not looking too smart at the moment.

 

[duhmetreE]

I might be alone but I truly think Laffy will be fine. IMO he will still be a great player.... hopefully for the New York Rangers.

I might stop watching for a long time if they do something like trading him for Patrick Kane.

 

[huerter]

I mean there’s a lot of very good reasons why most teams that successfully built dominant sustained contenders through the draft don’t follow the blueprint that the NYR did.

No one else has tried to “win while rebuilding” to the extent the NYR did. Not fully tearing things down to studs. Aggressively pursuing pieces at the high end of the trade and UFA market.

Especially doing so BEFORE knowing what they had in the kids. Chicago didn’t add Marian Hossa because they drafted Ladd and Barker. They waited until Toews and Kane proved themselves. The Devils didn’t add Hamilton and Palat after drafting Zacha and McLeod. Etc. Etc.an

NYR undertook quite the experiment. Not looking too smart at the moment.

Lean in...(whisper voice) It wasn't a rebuild. Never was meant to be one.

 

[LokiDog]

I might be alone but I truly think Laffy will be fine. IMO he will still be a great player.... hopefully for the New York Rangers.

I might stop watching for a long time if they do something like trading him for Patrick Kane.

I’d be very against trading him for a 30+ rental but, while I sincerely respect the optimism, I have strong doubts Laf will ever be a great player. I still hope he can be a good one. If his career production matches Kreider at this point, I’ll be happy.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Lean in...(whisper voice) It wasn't a rebuild. Never was meant to be one.

1 Cup in 80+ years speaks for itself.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Lafs numbers are good, true… but he’s not playing great. Or at least he can do much more IMO. WATCHING him it seems obvious. He s going to the net more and getting into open ice, but he’s struggling with consistency big time. AND YES PP time would help. For him Kakko AND Fil. Wouldn’t hurt Krav either.

He does a lot of good things that people just like to over look because it doesn't suite the he's a bust rhetoric. His vision is up there and his passes are very good. The few times he turns over the puck people give him shit, and that's the problem he can't make any mistake at all or else he's punished by Gallant and the fan base. Meanwhile Panarin turns the puck over and lazily back checks every damn game and he's rewarded.

If he wasn't neutered he'd have more confidence to do more. If he got the PP1 time it would make a huge difference.

 

[Mandar]

He does a lot of good things that people just like to over look because it doesn't suite the he's a bust rhetoric. His vision is up there and his passes are very good. The few times he turns over the puck people give him shit, and that's the problem he can't make any mistake at all or else he's punished by Gallant and the fan base. Meanwhile Panarin turns the puck over and lazily back checks every damn game and he's rewarded.

If he wasn't neutered he'd have more confidence to do more. If he got the PP1 time it would make a huge difference.

Wait…so you’re saying if he got PP1 time, that would make a huge difference for him? Never saw you say that before on here…did you just have an epiphany or something? You are advocating that he be on PP1? Solves everything…. Kudos!

 

[Deleted member 23124]

I mean there’s a lot of very good reasons why most teams that successfully built dominant sustained contenders through the draft don’t follow the blueprint that the NYR did.

No one else has tried to “win while rebuilding” to the extent the NYR did. Not fully tearing things down to studs. Aggressively pursuing pieces at the high end of the trade and UFA market.

Especially doing so BEFORE knowing what they had in the kids. Chicago didn’t add Marian Hossa because they drafted Ladd and Barker. They waited until Toews and Kane proved themselves. The Devils didn’t add Hamilton and Palat after drafting Zacha and McLeod. Etc. Etc.

NYR undertook quite the experiment. Not looking too smart at the moment.

This should not surprise anyone.....it's been the organization's modus operandi for as long as I can remember.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

The Rangers are currently at 51% xGF. I don't think they are that good 5v5 and they've been much worse the past 20 games or so. But they are actually above that 50% mark.


And there might not be a second window because the kids aren't good enough.

I should have clarified that the Rangers are only >50% because of the extremely good early season play, but Gerard threw that out the window so we can let Goodrow and Hajek and Harpur cook.

It’s impossible for this coaching staff to get consistency out of this group because their only means of evaluation is whether the puck ends up in the net or not. No way to know if the lines are actually playing well because Gallant can’t see the game at this speed and I’m pretty sure his “internal metrics” are just nudes of Barclay Goodrow.

 

[huerter]

1 Cup in 80+ years speaks for itself.

Not sure how that’s relevant.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

The usage has not been the main problem with Laf, its just a symptom of the shit mentality of the people running the team.

Most teams draft players in the top 10 and view them as essential for their long term success. Players you draft 1OA and 2OA don’t have to “earn it” or whatever bullshit you’ll hear Michelettis talk about. Players you draft that high already have earned it, that’s why you took them there, and that’s why they need to be given the chance to figure out how to play their game at the NHL level which is insanely hard. Instead the Rangers tell these guys to go out there and play safe and “mistake free” hockey. They think guys like Ben Harpur are safer plays than zac Jones. These guys are not going to pan out until they’re viewed as more than ornaments for the 3rd line. This core MINUS buchnevich is a joke. They were never winning anything until these prospects play huge roles on the team, yet here we are 3 years after drafting Laf scratching him for a bum with 0 NYR goals.

 

[bleedblue94]

I think part of the issue is this:

The way the team is constructed, the age of the players, the salary structure, etc.

It doesn’t matter if we say well look at Tage, look at so and so, forget the expectations of being 1OA and just have patience.

Sure - maybe Laf can have a Tage like career and find his game at 25 and suddenly be a real star (also, how often does that happen without a trade - we can find top 3 picks who broke out late but how many stayed with their draft team?)

The problem is Shesterkin will be a UFA and going on 30. Kreider, Zib, Trochek, Trouba, Bread will be in there 30s.

If Laf was drafted 20th and the idea was patience, that would be fine - but the contracts given out, re-upping Zib, investing in Trochek, etc. was based partially on the presence of #1 and 2 OA picks who DON’T take 6 years to become impact players at the NHL level.

Am I saying we’d have let Zib walk? No, probably not but especially with a deep run last year and the reasonable expectation of the kids taking a step (or three) do we sign Trochek? Also if they were 20th overall type kids with a delayed ETA, and they had the other pieces locked in that they currently have, they may have moved one or made a major trade that changed the face of the team (Eichel?) that they wouldn’t make because of the “potential” the 1 and 2 OA carried.

We banked on these kids being able to make a DIFFERENCE in their first 3-5 years. Laf is on 3, KK is on 4 and (all credit to Kakko improving and showing promise) neither is genuinely a difference maker. So the whole plan is f***ed because - due to being a consensus 1OA - the plan wasn’t to wait until he’s in his 5th season for him to start making an impact. The plan was that winning the draft lottery twice was going to change the trajectory of the team dramatically.

So it isn’t as simple as “have patience”. Chytil is never going to be peak Zibanejad. Lafreniere is never going to be peak Panarin. When those guys are no longer contributing or have moved on, the guys in line to replace them are downgrades. The idea was for them to be impact players WHILE those guys were also impact players.

I also just genuinely feel Laf is a little too comfortable and cozy with his status as a 1OA NYR NHL player and he really hasn’t shown the hunger to keep growing and to be the best. There’s just a comfortable complacency vibe I get. The vets have it as well. It’s an organizational problem. Unless you have a true internal drive to be the best and not just “good” and “successful” this isn’t a franchise where you go to work hard and keep improving.

I said at the time of the trocheck signing they had boxed themselves in completely and now they have their older core of high aav vets locked into long term contracts. The roster structure is a complete mess here.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

I said at the time of the trocheck signing they had boxed themselves in completely and now they have their older core of high aav vets locked into long term contracts. The roster structure is a complete mess here.

Could’ve signed a few of Evan Rodrigues, sonny Milano, traded for a non-Goodrow 3C and given Chytil the 2C role. Would have tons more flexibility, deeper lineup, another open PP1 spot for a lefty under the age of 25. Instead, classic rangers move

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I might be alone but I truly think Laffy will be fine. IMO he will still be a great player.... hopefully for the New York Rangers.

I might stop watching for a long time if they do something like trading him for Patrick Kane.

I grew up as an Oiler fan, then they started moving all my favorite players. I said if they move Messier I'm out of here and I'll go for whoever gets him. So here i am, a trade of that magnitude for Kane would severely piss me off.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

At some point here the Rangers have to reset the makeup of this team. It’s coming in the next 18-24 months. You hope at that time, guys like Lafreniere and Kakko put it together but who knows at this point.

This organization stinks at developing forward talent. It’s organizational rot at the core, you can’t convince me otherwise.

I just hope the Rangers don’t give up on them. I’d rather go down swinging with these guys then have them get traded in shortsighted deals and blow up to their potential elsewhere

I’ll also add that if Drury trades Lafreniere for 3 months of Patrick Kane, I may just quit this team altogether

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Lots of good points made.

Going back to Loki’s point - I agree with the entire premise.

However it isn’t the players decision to be drafted into the team, the city, the roster, the cap landscape, team expectations, etc.

It’s not as simple as “having patience”. But when you are evaluating a young player it’s a simple fact you can’t ignore.

The problem is you really can’t have both exist at the same time, which to me makes the whole idea that he’s a “bust” much more difficult to assess.

 

[huerter]

Why did JD sign Gaudreau and why is Gorton playing Slafkovsky 12 min/g instead of more minutes or in the AHL/WJC?

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Wait…so you’re saying if he got PP1 time, that would make a huge difference for him? Never saw you say that before on here…did you just have an epiphany or something? You are advocating that he be on PP1? Solves everything…. Kudos!

He has as many EV points and Kreider, more than Trocheck, and 4 less than Zibanejad.

 

[smoneil]

I mean, after all the “too much doubt about health” and “Laf/Kakko could be better than Eichel himself” talk, Eichel has 54 points in 61 games since being traded and is above point per game this year. He just turned 26 (and is a center). Imagine moving Buch, Laf/KK, Lundkvist for Eichel? You’re replacing Blais, one of Laf/KK and a draft pick with a 26 year old 1C, bumping Zib to 2C and arguably having one of the best 1-2 center combos in the world. Due to their potential, we were gun shy about even considering that and not too long after, we have little to show for it and neither Laf nor KK even still have the value to be utilized in that type of trade.

We were way off on the timeline. I don’t even know whose fault it is, and I don’t think the organization is any good at developing prospects but I also think they are just two tremendously underwhelming and disappointing kids who have failed to meet their draft hype on their own merit, PP time and shit like that aside. That’s how we’re coping, but I really don’t think that Laf would be more than maybe 10 points better anywhere else. Put him on McDavid’s wing and he’s still probably a 50 point player. Not living up to 1OA hopes.

Pavel Bure looked amazing for 50 games. Pat Lafontaine looked great for 67 games. Eric Lindros was solid for 2 and a half seasons. The concern on Eichel is that with the injury he had, it's a ticking time bomb. On some rare cases (Sid Crosby's concussion issues being one notable example), the career-ender never really comes. But trading for any player whose medicals indicate that he could be one hit away from retirement is never a good idea. In other words, it's going to take a LOT more than ~60 games of good hockey from Eichel before I would change my view on whether we should have traded for him (and even then, only in retrospect--we've been burned over and over again on players like that).

TL/DR: The story on Eichel, much like the stories on Laf, KK, Chytil, etc, have plenty of chapters left to unfold.