Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[smoneil]

I mean there’s a lot of very good reasons why most teams that successfully built dominant sustained contenders through the draft don’t follow the blueprint that the NYR did.

No one else has tried to “win while rebuilding” to the extent the NYR did. Not fully tearing things down to studs. Aggressively pursuing pieces at the high end of the trade and UFA market.

Especially doing so BEFORE knowing what they had in the kids. Chicago didn’t add Marian Hossa because they drafted Ladd and Barker. They waited until Toews and Kane proved themselves. The Devils didn’t add Hamilton and Palat after drafting Zacha and McLeod. Etc. Etc.

NYR undertook quite the experiment. Not looking too smart at the moment.

I think the issue is that they tried to do both simultaneously. I agree with not tearing it all down to the studs. Once a losing culture sets in, it is VERY difficult to shake. You don't want your high-end kids developing in a losing culture. But. You DO want your high end kids to develop (top minutes, in all situations, carrying responsibility, getting reps in game situations, etc). Chytil (and Lias for that matter) should have spent at least a full season on the top line in Hartford. Kakko and Laf should have gotten their 9 games and then been sent down rather that trying to break them in as 3rd/4th liners.

 

[smoneil]

The team is insanely unbalanced. Three LWs, three Cs, all needing minutes in the top six. Only one real top six RW (Kakko) with MAYBE another on the roster (Krav). Ideally, particularly with Othmann in the pipeline, we would trade one of the three LWs for a top six RW, but nobody wants to pull the trigger on any of the three LW guys (the vet who likely wants to be a Ranger lifer, the superstar Hart candidate, or the cost-controlled, only 1st OA draft pick in the last 50+ years).

I can't really complain that much about ES deployment, because at ES, we don't really HAVE a top six. We have a top 9 in most games. What GG needs to do is split up the stale 1st PP unit and create two more balanced units that he can deploy based on which group has the hot hand from night to night. There was an argument for not doing that last year, because that stacked top group was the best PP unit in the league. That isn't the case anymore. Mixing the kids in with the vets to create TWO units is the best thing for their development AND for winning games.

 

[huerter]

The team is insanely unbalanced. Three LWs, three Cs, all needing minutes in the top six. Only one real top six RW (Kakko) with MAYBE another on the roster (Krav). Ideally, particularly with Othmann in the pipeline, we would trade one of the three LWs for a top six RW, but nobody wants to pull the trigger on any of the three LW guys (the vet who likely wants to be a Ranger lifer, the superstar Hart candidate, or the cost-controlled, only 1st OA draft pick in the last 50+ years).

I can't really complain that much about ES deployment, because at ES, we don't really HAVE a top six. We have a top 9 in most games. What GG needs to do is split up the stale 1st PP unit and create two more balanced units that he can deploy based on which group has the hot hand from night to night. There was an argument for not doing that last year, because that stacked top group was the best PP unit in the league. That isn't the case anymore. Mixing the kids in with the vets to create TWO units is the best thing for their development AND for winning games.

If the PP is elite at creating chances and has previously been elite at scoring goals, then I say keep it the same. The PP2 crew have shown no PP acumen as a group or individually. PP1 has the synergy and the accrual of reps where they know how to figure S out. On Dec 29, 2022, former KHL assistant coach Mitch Giguere stated that in the whole league, the PP he loves this year is the New York Rangers and he specifically singled out Trocheck's utilization as a reason why.

Not to mention the whole geometry of the PP argument which really should be the end all be all but we've hashed that out to death!

 

[bhamill]

Who said the power play doesn’t count or that it’s not a huge part of the game? I definitely didn’t lol.

Rangers didn’t play a bad game at all last night overall and both goalies were insane. But you need to split up 5v5 and 5v4 because we have stunk 5v5 since Gallant got here and 5v5 offense is still the teams biggest issue. That shouldn’t surprise anyone because even strength hockey is very difficult and requires actual modern coaching. Its where Gallants old man philosophy, poor/nonexistent systems, and horrendous lineup/deployment choices consistently hurt this team.

Until this team can consistently just be AVERAGE at 5v5 (~50% xGF) then the formula is going to have to be great PP + Igor carrying which is not a good one.

All I said is that chances on the power play count too. You can split it out however you want but power play scoring chances matter as much as 5v5 or any other configuration. So if someone says we were outchanced In the game but they’re only counting 5v5… they’re wrong. Period. That’s it. I didn’t say anything along the lines that we don’t need to be better 5v5, so I’m not sure what you are arguing against.

 

[bhamill]

He does a lot of good things that people just like to over look because it doesn't suite the he's a bust rhetoric. His vision is up there and his passes are very good. The few times he turns over the puck people give him shit, and that's the problem he can't make any mistake at all or else he's punished by Gallant and the fan base. Meanwhile Panarin turns the puck over and lazily back checks every damn game and he's rewarded.

If he wasn't neutered he'd have more confidence to do more. If he got the PP1 time it would make a huge difference.

I agree with most of that. including you explaining why he often doesn’t look great out there.

 

[ReddestRum]

He does a lot of good things that people just like to over look because it doesn't suite the he's a bust rhetoric. His vision is up there and his passes are very good. The few times he turns over the puck people give him shit, and that's the problem he can't make any mistake at all or else he's punished by Gallant and the fan base. Meanwhile Panarin turns the puck over and lazily back checks every damn game and he's rewarded.

If he wasn't neutered he'd have more confidence to do more. If he got the PP1 time it would make a huge difference.

Why try to compare punishments for Laf who might make a mistake playing against usually 3rd line opponents, to a guy who is Top 20 in the league in points that makes his bones by making high-risk passes, against a team's top line, and who has one of the best passing IQs this team?

It's a scary thought, but I think some of you would bench a guy like Panarin for having a bad game. Just so you can shove Laf in his place so he can take one shot in a 60 minutes or pick up a secondary assist for just touching the puck, and then rush to this thread to say, "I told you so. Kid's on fire."

 

[JHS]

I think what's perceived as Laf being lazy off the puck is just a lack of hockey IQ and NHL processing.

He's just kinda dumb at this level. His anticipation is not good and he overthinks a lot of decisions.

Moving faster and harder doesn't fix that.

I don’t see it that way. Him being lazy is a result of him not moving his feet and coasting all over the ice. That’s not hockey IQ that’s just a total lack of effort. Playing wing at the NHK level is about as easy a position to play both offensively and defensively. It’s far easier than center and defense as those two positions require far more responsibility and awareness.

To me, an indication of Laf’s lack of hockey IQ is that he’s never played center at any point in his development. Coaches will put players at center who they feel can contribute and read plays on the defensive side of the puck. Wings are for guys who can’t do that but have great skill. Look at McDavid, Mathews, Crosby. Those guys all are arguably the best 3 forwards to be drafted in years and all play center. A glaring alarm with Laf should have been that he only can play wing. That means coaches recognized he was horrendous off the puck.

Im not saying he can’t learn to play better off the puck but the indications are he’s severely lacking hustle, awareness and hockey IQ. Not a good combo!

 

[Do you want ants]

I think this fear that we’ll trade Laf for Kane falls into the same category as those who thought we’d get Point or Serg from Tampa for McD. It’s just not realistic.

Before someone points out the Buch trade, that was to clear cap space and make room for the kids.

 

[enviro61]

I don’t see it that way. Him being lazy is a result of him not moving his feet and coasting all over the ice. That’s not hockey IQ that’s just a total lack of effort. Playing wing at the NHK level is about as easy a position to play both offensively and defensively. It’s far easier than center and defense as those two positions require far more responsibility and awareness.

To me, an indication of Laf’s lack of hockey IQ is that he’s never played center at any point in his development. Coaches will put players at center who they feel can contribute and read plays on the defensive side of the puck. Wings are for guys who can’t do that but have great skill. Look at McDavid, Mathews, Crosby. Those guys all are arguably the best 3 forwards to be drafted in years and all play center. A glaring alarm with Laf should have been that he only can play wing. That means coaches recognized he was horrendous off the puck.

Im not saying he can’t learn to play better off the puck but the indications are he’s severely lacking hustle, awareness and hockey IQ. Not a good combo!

How was this not picked up by scouts when he was in junior? How does a kid lacking hustle, awareness/hockey iq end up going #1?

 

[bbny]

How was this not picked up by scouts when he was in junior? How does a kid lacking hustle, awareness/hockey iq end up going #1?

He doesn’t lack any of those things. It’s fiction.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The team is insanely unbalanced. Three LWs, three Cs, all needing minutes in the top six. Only one real top six RW (Kakko) with MAYBE another on the roster (Krav). Ideally, particularly with Othmann in the pipeline, we would trade one of the three LWs for a top six RW, but nobody wants to pull the trigger on any of the three LW guys (the vet who likely wants to be a Ranger lifer, the superstar Hart candidate, or the cost-controlled, only 1st OA draft pick in the last 50+ years).

I can't really complain that much about ES deployment, because at ES, we don't really HAVE a top six. We have a top 9 in most games. What GG needs to do is split up the stale 1st PP unit and create two more balanced units that he can deploy based on which group has the hot hand from night to night. There was an argument for not doing that last year, because that stacked top group was the best PP unit in the league. That isn't the case anymore. Mixing the kids in with the vets to create TWO units is the best thing for their development AND for winning games.

Balance is easily restored if they play Kreider at RW. Why they won't do it is a glimpse into the issues surrounding this team. Zib, Kreider, Panarin call the shots as far as where they play, who they play with for the most part. Kreider Trochek Vesey was fine as a line, Lafreniere looked good with Zib, so why did that get thrown in the trash? Kreider has his contract already, isn't doing much 5 on 5 anyway, so whats the problem?

He doesn’t lack any of those things. It’s fiction.

Bingo....a lot of overreacting to a power forward type not being physically mature enough to play his game and trying to adjust his game in lie of that.

 

[pc_md]

Instead of trying to agree on Lafreniere value in a trade, why not taking it the other way around: what is the Rangers primary need ?
What do they need to take the next step ?

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

to demote a guy from one of the most powerful PP1 units just to accommodate one guy is insane. there are plenty of teams out there like the wild that would kill to have just a few decent shifts during a season. and the wild have kaprizov!!!!!

 

[leetch99]

Lafreniere won't be dealt for Kane.....rest easy folks . That is not happening .

 

[bbny]

Instead of trying to agree on Lafreniere value in a trade, why not taking it the other way around: what is the Rangers primary need ?
What do they need to take the next step ?

A new coach

 

[LokiDog]

Lots of good points made.

Going back to Loki’s point - I agree with the entire premise.

However it isn’t the players decision to be drafted into the team, the city, the roster, the cap landscape, team expectations, etc.

It’s not as simple as “having patience”. But when you are evaluating a young player it’s a simple fact you can’t ignore.

The problem is you really can’t have both exist at the same time, which to me makes the whole idea that he’s a “bust” much more difficult to assess.

I absolutely agree with this. My line of thinking is more “patience is required before you can actually call him a bust and he may breakout as a 70 point physical winger down the road, but he’s kind of a bust for us” and what I mean by that is, with a 1OA and a group like prime Zib, prime (at the time of draft, at least) Bread, prime Kreider, Norris Fox, Vezina Shesty, you pretty much HAVE TO produce and make an immediate impact to be a success for the team. You can still go on to have a successful career at virtually any age as long as you can keep yourself in the league and getting opportunities, but in order to be a success for the team’s situation, a guy on an ELC coming in and being able to make an immediate impact is what puts a roster with solid pieces in place over the top.

Now, this part is moot, but more of an intellectual exercise.

Let’s pretend we hadn’t signed Trochek and had cap space - let’s say it’s last summer. That’s just for the purpose of skipping the how we afford this questions - but since it’s a thought exercise, it really doesn’t matter.

You have a 21 year old who was a #1OA pick and has yet to find his game at the NHL level. He may, but he certainly may not. He’s yet to hit 35 points.

There is a 24 year old former top 10 pick out there who may not re-sign with his current club and has one more year of team control and is being shopped. He’s scored 45+ points a few times and broken 60 last year.

HFNYR says no way in hell they would trade Lafreniere for him. Lafreniere just has SO much potential - I’d hate to trade him for a 60 point player and then he blows up and he’s a 90 point star winger somewhere else.

Okay. First, that may happen but the odds of it happening are low and getting lower. Second, what are the odds of it happening here? What will change in the next year or two that will foster that explosion? But finally, what good is it if Lafreniere explodes into even a 75+ point winger when he’s 25, Shesterkin is 31 and on a much different contract, Kreider is 35, Zib is 34, etc. Based on how the team is constructed, wouldn’t the 60 point 24 year old who can contribute right now be more valuable to a team with prime Shesterkin and Fox, a 100 point winger and a 1C? Can’t the 24 year old maybe progress even more and be a 70 point player? Do we really think Laf is going to be that much more than a 60-70 point player? Even if you do hold that hope - isn’t 60-70 points NOW more beneficial than Laf being a 90 point player in 3-4 years?

Laf may not be a bust. But relative to our time line the pick is a bust. The “he has so much potential, he may be a 90 point player some day” thinking is so flawed. If we have KK, Laf, Chytil, etc. who we’re all committed to being patient with for another 3+ years because at that point they may all be 70 point guys, we should be trading Zib, Panarin, Kreider. No questions. If we want to make the playoffs and win a Cup with Shesty and Zib and Kreider, we don’t have the luxury of being patient for 5+ years for our lottery picks to become impact players. We’d be better served with players who MAY have a lower ceiling but are already having an impact right now.

It’s exactly as you said @HockeyBasedNYC - you can’t have both.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Instead of trying to agree on Lafreniere value in a trade, why not taking it the other way around: what is the Rangers primary need ?
What do they need to take the next step ?

they'll probably do the same as last year - acquire 2-3 guys before the TDL and see if they can carry the team onward in case all the others lapse into a comatose funk on offense.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

I absolutely agree with this. My line of thinking is more “patience is required before you can actually call him a bust and he may breakout as a 70 point physical winger down the road, but he’s kind of a bust for us” and what I mean by that is, with a 1OA and a group like prime Zib, prime (at the time of draft, at least) Bread, prime Kreider, Norris Fox, Vezina Shesty, you pretty much HAVE TO produce and make an immediate impact to be a success for the team. You can still go on to have a successful career at virtually any age as long as you can keep yourself in the league and getting opportunities, but in order to be a success for the team’s situation, a guy on an ELC coming in and being able to make an immediate impact is what puts a roster with solid pieces in place over the top.

Now, this part is moot, but more of an intellectual exercise.

Let’s pretend we hadn’t signed Trochek and had cap space - let’s say it’s last summer. That’s just for the purpose of skipping the how we afford this questions - but since it’s a thought exercise, it really doesn’t matter.

You have a 21 year old who was a #1OA pick and has yet to find his game at the NHL level. He may, but he certainly may not. He’s yet to hit 35 points.

There is a 24 year old former top 10 pick out there who may not re-sign with his current club and has one more year of team control and is being shopped. He’s scored 45+ points a few times and broken 60 last year.

HFNYR says no way in hell they would trade Lafreniere for him. Lafreniere just has SO much potential - I’d hate to trade him for a 60 point player and then he blows up and he’s a 90 point star winger somewhere else.

Okay. First, that may happen but the odds of it happening are low and getting lower. Second, what are the odds of it happening here? What will change in the next year or two that will foster that explosion? But finally, what good is it if Lafreniere explodes into even a 75+ point winger when he’s 25, Shesterkin is 31 and on a much different contract, Kreider is 35, Zib is 34, etc. Based on how the team is constructed, wouldn’t the 60 point 24 year old who can contribute right now be more valuable to a team with prime Shesterkin and Fox, a 100 point winger and a 1C? Can’t the 24 year old maybe progress even more and be a 70 point player? Do we really think Laf is going to be that much more than a 60-70 point player? Even if you do hold that hope - isn’t 60-70 points NOW more beneficial than Laf being a 90 point player in 3-4 years?

Laf may not be a bust. But relative to our time line the pick is a bust. The “he has so much potential, he may be a 90 point player some day” thinking is so flawed. If we have KK, Laf, Chytil, etc. who we’re all committed to being patient with for another 3+ years because at that point they may all be 70 point guys, we should be trading Zib, Panarin, Kreider. No questions. If we want to make the playoffs and win a Cup with Shesty and Zib and Kreider, we don’t have the luxury of being patient for 5+ years for our lottery picks to become impact players. We’d be better served with players who MAY have a lower ceiling but are already having an impact right now.

It’s exactly as you said @HockeyBasedNYC - you can’t have both.

5 years is indeed a very long time to wait for players to maybe become 60-70 point scorers. and the window for the majority of the top 6 guys can close abruptly at anytime during that 5 year span.

talk of a rebuilding of the team. that time has passed. the rebuild started with quinn at 2018.-19. and we were considered ahead of schedule. the time to make that cup push is right now.

 

[Off Sides]

I think part of the issue is this:

The way the team is constructed, the age of the players, the salary structure, etc.

It doesn’t matter if we say well look at Tage, look at so and so, forget the expectations of being 1OA and just have patience.

Sure - maybe Laf can have a Tage like career and find his game at 25 and suddenly be a real star (also, how often does that happen without a trade - we can find top 3 picks who broke out late but how many stayed with their draft team?)

The problem is Shesterkin will be a UFA and going on 30. Kreider, Zib, Trochek, Trouba, Bread will be in there 30s.

If Laf was drafted 20th and the idea was patience, that would be fine - but the contracts given out, re-upping Zib, investing in Trochek, etc. was based partially on the presence of #1 and 2 OA picks who DON’T take 6 years to become impact players at the NHL level.

Am I saying we’d have let Zib walk? No, probably not but especially with a deep run last year and the reasonable expectation of the kids taking a step (or three) do we sign Trochek? Also if they were 20th overall type kids with a delayed ETA, and they had the other pieces locked in that they currently have, they may have moved one or made a major trade that changed the face of the team (Eichel?) that they wouldn’t make because of the “potential” the 1 and 2 OA carried.

We banked on these kids being able to make a DIFFERENCE in their first 3-5 years. Laf is on 3, KK is on 4 and (all credit to Kakko improving and showing promise) neither is genuinely a difference maker. So the whole plan is f***ed because - due to being a consensus 1OA - the plan wasn’t to wait until he’s in his 5th season for him to start making an impact. The plan was that winning the draft lottery twice was going to change the trajectory of the team dramatically.

So it isn’t as simple as “have patience”. Chytil is never going to be peak Zibanejad. Lafreniere is never going to be peak Panarin. When those guys are no longer contributing or have moved on, the guys in line to replace them are downgrades. The idea was for them to be impact players WHILE those guys were also impact players.

I also just genuinely feel Laf is a little too comfortable and cozy with his status as a 1OA NYR NHL player and he really hasn’t shown the hunger to keep growing and to be the best. There’s just a comfortable complacency vibe I get. The vets have it as well. It’s an organizational problem. Unless you have a true internal drive to be the best and not just “good” and “successful” this isn’t a franchise where you go to work hard and keep improving.

I have been saying this since they signed Panarin, he was 8-10 years older than what they were drafting between 2017 and 2020. The timeline was never going to work right unless the prospects turned to vets right away, that was unlikely to, and did not happen.

They drafted 1. 2. 7. 9. etc, etc and screwed it all up though, it's just not on the prospects. There is a real problem with development here.

 

[xsniper11x]

The team is insanely unbalanced. Three LWs, three Cs, all needing minutes in the top six. Only one real top six RW (Kakko) with MAYBE another on the roster (Krav). Ideally, particularly with Othmann in the pipeline, we would trade one of the three LWs for a top six RW, but nobody wants to pull the trigger on any of the three LW guys (the vet who likely wants to be a Ranger lifer, the superstar Hart candidate, or the cost-controlled, only 1st OA draft pick in the last 50+ years).

I can't really complain that much about ES deployment, because at ES, we don't really HAVE a top six. We have a top 9 in most games. What GG needs to do is split up the stale 1st PP unit and create two more balanced units that he can deploy based on which group has the hot hand from night to night. There was an argument for not doing that last year, because that stacked top group was the best PP unit in the league. That isn't the case anymore. Mixing the kids in with the vets to create TWO units is the best thing for their development AND for winning games.

Not only positional imbalance, but skillset as well. There’s way too many playmakers and not a single burner anywhere in that top 9. Closest is Chytil, which is why the kids look best with him. His speed creates space.

Jason Robinson is slow and his AHL numbers were never all that impressive relative to his explosion in the NHL. Pavs was on his way down. What changed? They started playing w/ a speedster like Hintz that gave them time and space and their games completely changed.

 

[Mike in Houston]

Lafrenière is back on the 3rd line with Chytil and Vesey at practice this morning.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I have been saying this since they signed Panarin, he was 8-10 years older than what they were drafting between 2017 and 2020. The timeline was never going to work right unless the prospects turned to vets right away, that was unlikely to, and did not happen.

They drafted 1. 2. 7. 9. etc, etc and screwed it all up though, it's just not on the prospects. There is a real problem with development here.

I never understood this line of thinking. If they don’t sign Panarin, resign Kreider or trade for Trouba we probably don’t end up in the exact spots that yielded Laff and Kakko in the draft. We could very easily have a team with no panarin, no kreider, no Trouba AND no Laff and Kakko.

 

[Mandar]

He has as many EV points and Kreider, more than Trocheck, and 4 less than Zibanejad.

Interesting…..so do you think he should get time on the power play? Just curious

 

[IronBloodedLion]

Lafrenière is back on the 3rd line with Chytil and Vesey at practice this morning.

As expected. The scratching was a boot in the ass, not a giving up.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Interesting…..so do you think he should get time on the power play? Just curious

i think he replied somewhere that he wanted trochek to be moved to PP2 and laff to PP1. i replied that trochek is 2nd on the team with 7 PPG's and that if anyone should be moved it should be bread who only has 2.

but demoting bread would also not be good as almost all of mika's PPG's were bread aided.