Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[Samsquanch]

What would you attribute that to? When Lafreniere was in junior he was the best player in the world for his draft year. One got opportunity and the rope to make and learn from mistakes, the other gets scratched when the entire team is garbage.

Just curious, what do you think Stutzle would have looked like in the QMJHL?

At the end of the day what your saying doesnt really matter until Laf can show hes even able to turn the corner one day. We really dont know as of now. Yakupov never got better after a trade.

Would he look like Stutzle on the Sens, and Stu would look like Laf on the rangers? I have serious doubts about that myself, and so should anyone whos seen them play as professionals.

What we do know today is that one of these two players are incredible, world class skaters that can put up a PPG as a top 6 center. The other is a middle 6 winger that is struggling to stay in the lineup.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Just curious, what do you think Stutzle would have looked like in the QMJHL?

At the end of the day what your saying doesnt really matter until Laf can show hes even able to turn the corner one day. We really dont know as of now. Yakupov never got better after a trade.

Would he look like Stutzle on the Sens, and Stu would look like Laf on the rangers? I have serious doubts about that myself, and so should anyone whos seen them play as professionals.

What we do know today is that one of these two players are incredible, world class skaters that can put up a PPG as a top 6 center. The other is a middle 6 winger that is struggling to stay in the lineup.

If it was just Lafreniere you might have a point but every high pick we have had here has fizzled and if it wasnt for the fact we didnt have cap space foe veteran dmen the same would have happened to miller and lindgren. The other issue is that nobody has any patience, Lafreniere has basically played two full seasons here, with a lot of stops and starts from the time he was drafted. I'm not concerned about him at all, he will be a really good player for this team.

 

[bigdog16]

some horrendous takes here

I don't really care what you think. From someone who was at the pro level and have countless amount of friends who have succeeded and busted I can tell you every organization from a "development" standpoint is practically the same.

You are mad about the deployment. But what have these guys done to deserve any top end minutes? Judging the way most people talk in here you would think Kakko and Laf are buried on the 4th line and get 5 minutes a game. This isn't the case and they have certainly got their looks. And they haven't done anything with them.

But for the idiots claiming "the Rangers are terrible at development" is such a bogus claim. Every team runs the same s***. You can point fingers all you want but at the end of the day it comes down to the guy in the mirror

 

[smoneil]

Pretty much this. Stutzle is absolutely electric when carrying the puck up the ice on the rush during 5v5. His skating and puck control are world-class elite.

Since being moved to center hes been in a completely different tier of player than Laffreniere is. Now its literally like comparing a dominant first liner to a role playing third liner - if you watch them play there is massive gap between them in terms of skill and their ability to make an impact. Its undeniable.

Stutzle is absolutely electric because he has confidence. The PP issue isn't JUST about production. It's about confidence. You can see when Laf has it vs. when he doesn't. He literally stops shooting when he gets inside his own head. Because of their PP production, our top guys play 5v5 with a bit too MUCH confidence (the dopey cross-ice, behind the back passing that leads to so many give aways). The kids often play too conservatively, because they don't get that confidence boost from the PP (and because they know they could sit or lose their spot on a good line due to one mistake). That's on usage. At the very least, GG should have gotten guys like Chytil and Kakko involved in the PK by now., and I have no idea what he sees in Trouba's game that makes him think that A: Trouba should be on that 2nd PP unit over Miller (or, frankly, Schneider), or B: that the entire strategy of the 2nd unit should be Trouba launching shot after shot from the blue line.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I don't really care what you think. From someone who was at the pro level and have countless amount of friends who have succeeded and busted I can tell you every organization from a "development" standpoint is practically the same.

You are mad about the deployment. But what have these guys done to deserve any top end minutes? Judging the way most people talk in here you would think Kakko and Laf are buried on the 4th line and get 5 minutes a game. This isn't the case and they have certainly got their looks. And they haven't done anything with them.

But for the idiots claiming "the Rangers are terrible at development" is such a bogus claim. Every team runs the same s***. You can point fingers all you want but at the end of the day it comes down to the guy in the mirror

This organization thinks only of today and not of tomorrow, they can have the same development ideas but in practice this team compared to others with high picks is trying to win every game at the expense of getting young players opportunities to succeed, the ironic thing is they will not win a cup in a cap world without the kids being a large part of it. People always wanna compare to Stutzle but i think the comparison should be in how Robertson was both a young player and given opportunities to succeed and its worked marvelously.

 

[TGWL]

I think majority of the fanbase knows his play has been pretty inconsistent. He isn't showing anything that says "this guys is about to break out".

Maybe sitting him will be good for the next couple of games or so, but I think the real issue here is the statement was made that "We're trying to win games", and the coach somehow thinks scratching Laf for Sammy is going to help us win games...

 

[DanielBrassard]

There's an irony in using SA16 to make this point.

Lafreniere deserves to be scratched and I'm hopeful it will do him good. The one legit criticism I heard about him predaft was his attitude and engagement. At this level, with his usage, it's a must that he at least improve that. OTOH talk of his busting is not only premature, it's just wrong--the kid has been a serviceable 3rd liner since he was 18. (Of course, people can call that a bust--I don't.)

As far as the flashes go, it's just not a worthwhile conversation to have for the reasons you and SA16 (among others) point out often on these boards. Very subjective. If you ask edjovo, Kravtsov has 'flashed' elite skill frequently this year. I'd disagree.

I don't think it's ironic at all, just because he's a huge advocate for numbers and analytics doesn't mean he can't judge a player through a different lens. I'm just as much an advocate but it doesn't invalidate the point. And by any measure Laf really isn't all that impressive anyway so it kind of lines up regardless.

I hope so too, it would be great if something clicks and he takes off from here on out. As much as it may seem like I wouldn't, nothing would be better than if he did.

I get what you are saying but I don't agree that is subjective, at least generally I think it's fairly well understood what elite flashes are. I know you don't love the conversation and I am quite tired of it as well so for the sake of both of us I'll attempt to refrain using it in our discussions. Ed and Kravtsov is the outlier of all outliers, and it makes my point for me I think lol.

 

[leetch99]

Am I crazy for thinking we might actually trade him at some point?

Nope...not crazy at all . When does anyone think he will move past Kreider and Panarin on the depth chart ? It's either that or bump KK or somebody else on the right side . Square peg round hole. Gallant not helping the situation or Drury.....they have to be on the same page on this and do what is best for the player which in turn eventually will be what is best for the club in the long run..... As 50 year + fan of Ranger hockey......I'm not holding my breath .

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I think majority of the fanbase knows his play has been pretty inconsistent. He isn't showing anything that says "this guys is about to break out".

Maybe sitting him will be good for the next couple of games or so, but I think the real issue here is the statement was made that "We're trying to win games", and the coach somehow thinks scratching Laf for Sammy is going to help us win games...

I honestly think someone is breathing down Gallant's and Drurys necks

 

[SA16]

That is true but also @SA16 and I and probably others have been saying for a while now that it's not even about the point totals. Points can be misleading or random at times, where is the elite skillset? Where is the flash? Where are the hands, the vision, the dangles? People can talk about how Laf is comparable to Stutzle or whatever in 5v5 prouction but if you actually take an objective look at each player when they are on the ice, one is vastly superior in all facets of the game that involve playing with the puck than the other. It's obvious and you are not being real if you say otherwise.

The Lafreniere discourse is pretty funny because you have many of the "eye test" people defending him by posting his 5v5 scoring, stats, and usage and the "analytics" people asking why you don't see many flashes when watching the game

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Nope...not crazy at all . When does anyone think he will move past Kreider and Panarin on the depth chart ? It's either that or bump KK or somebody else on the right side . Square peg round hole. Gallant not helping the situation or Drury.....they have to be on the same page on this and do what is best for the player which in turn eventually will be what is best for the club in the long run..... As 50 year + fan of Ranger hockey......I'm not holding my breath .

Is Kreider really killing it this year, i must have missed that

 

[DanielBrassard]

The Lafreniere discourse is pretty funny because you have many of the "eye test" people defending him by posting his 5v5 scoring, stats, and usage and the "analytics" people asking why you don't see many flashes when watching the game

yes it is quite the turn of events isn't it. But to be honest the numbers and the eye test basically line up.

 

[Ruggs225]

I honestly think someone is breathing down Gallant's and Drurys necks

Yeah, Dolan probably who realized the Knicks will never win so he wants the Rangers to

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Bald bitch everyone jerking off too stepan was getting pp1 time. Wonder what sort of development stepan had to be a perennial 30 pt even strength player. What a player.

What does this even mean?

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Is Kreider really killing it this year, i must have missed that

To be fair he's on pace for 36 goals and about 60 points, which isnt exactly a shitty season.

Laffy will need to make the most of his time up top (whether its on the right or the left) when he gets to it and stay consistent to remain there. Its just the simple fact unfortunately.

 

[rangersfansince08]

just put him on waivers and be done with it. another 1st round forward that amounted to nothing. laughable laf

 

[TheDirtyH]

I don't think it's ironic at all, just because he's a huge advocate for numbers and analytics doesn't mean he can't judge a player through a different lens. I'm just as much an advocate but it doesn't invalidate the point. And by any measure Laf really isn't all that impressive anyway so it kind of lines up regardless.

I hope so too, it would be great if something clicks and he takes off from here on out. As much as it may seem like I wouldn't, nothing would be better than if he did.

I get what you are saying but I don't agree that is subjective, at least generally I think it's fairly well understood what elite flashes are. I know you don't love the conversation and I am quite tired of it as well so for the sake of both of us I'll attempt to refrain using it in our discussions. Ed and Kravtsov is the outlier of all outliers, and it makes my point for me I think lol.

I should follow your lead lol. I still think there's a player there in Lafreniere. How good, I can't say, and I'm not bullish.

 

[JHS]

I don't really care what you think. From someone who was at the pro level and have countless amount of friends who have succeeded and busted I can tell you every organization from a "development" standpoint is practically the same.

You are mad about the deployment. But what have these guys done to deserve any top end minutes? Judging the way most people talk in here you would think Kakko and Laf are buried on the 4th line and get 5 minutes a game. This isn't the case and they have certainly got their looks. And they haven't done anything with them.

But for the idiots claiming "the Rangers are terrible at development" is such a bogus claim. Every team runs the same s***. You can point fingers all you want but at the end of the day it comes down to the guy in the mirror

Thanks for making this point- I’ve been trying to make it for years around here but no one gets it. By the time NHL players get to that level they are really not “learning” how to play hockey. They need to be guided through adjusting to the professional game and given time to adjust to the speed and physicality at that level. But in terms of developing skills- that’s not gonna happen.

Laf has so many flaws with his game that it’s gonna take far too long to sort it out. He glides around the ice( constantly). He takes horrific angles on defense, he floats with the puck rather than take a powerful first stride once the puck touches his stick, he seems disengaged most games and has shown zero toughness. Sadly, he’s written his own destiny at it looks more and more like he’s on his way out the door and likely destined for one of the worst top overall picks in the past 5 drafts.

Also, is everyone assuming this is play related and not some off the ice situation?

 

[Profet]

Bald bitch everyone jerking off too stepan was getting pp1 time. Wonder what sort of development stepan had to be a perennial 30 pt even strength player. What a player.

It wasn't Stepan, it was his mom.

 

[LokiDog]

I like Laf as far as personality goes, willingness to mix it up a bit, and of course his predraft body of work but the facts are pretty simple… he’s underwhelming. He doesn’t jump off the page in ANY category. Stutzle has speed. And I’ve seen him seriously snipe. And he also is just about as physical as Laf. Byfield seems like he blows, but at least has the “huge guys take longer” narrative with his size and plays a desirable position.

Laf MAY or MAY NOT break out some day and be something like a 65-75 point guy with some gritty, pesty qualities. But he probably isn’t going to do it here, and almost certainly not while Zib and Kreider and Panarin are worth any semblance of their contracts. It’s just facing the music. He isn’t going to go on a heater and score 20 points in his next 25 games at ANY point during the next 6 months.

The quality of players going out is greater than the quality coming in. Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider are not going to be replaced by Chytil, Kakko, Kravtsov, Laf or Otthman. Maybe Otthman becomes a Kreider like player or Kakko becomes a solid top line well rounded winger. None of them are 100 point wingers or 40 goal centers. The window is now or never. 3-4 years tops. We won’t draft high enough to land a 1C or a Panarin like talent and Panarin is nose diving off of Everest as far as his overall impact being worth his contract.

Package Laf before his value bottoms out in an organization that can’t develop high end offensive talents for a mid-late 20s already established offensive talent.

Or we can just relive the Lundqvist era and be upper middle tier and win nothing. Again.

Also - as much as I find Laf likable and fun and a good personality, does anyone else think it’s even remotely possible that he got drafted #1OA by big city NYR who treat everyone like Mariah Carey and got good and friendly (because of his personality) with Reavo and Lindy and the crew and felt like he was a big boy who already made it and took his eye waaaayy off the ball? Because I’ve had that feeling before.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Kakko and Chytil seem to have finally “got it.” You notice them on the ice every game. They try to make plays, they want the puck. They look like budding stars. What did this organization do with them that’s so different from Laff. It’s been stated numerous times the NHL is not a developmental league. Sink or swim. Maybe Laff isn’t that good and he just developed sooner than others at Jr. level. Wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened. But I think he has the talent to be a big time player in this league, he just needs to work harder.

 

[LokiDog]

Kakko and Chytil seem to have finally “got it.” You notice them on the ice every game. They try to make plays, they want the puck. They look like budding stars. What did this organization do with them that’s so different from Laff. It’s been stated numerous times the NHL is not a developmental league. Sink or swim. Maybe Laff isn’t that good and he just developed sooner than others at Jr. level. Wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened. But I think he has the talent to be a big time player in this league, he just needs to work harder.

I agree with everything you’re saying but they hardly look like “future stars”. They’re starting to look like more than replacement level top nine players with potential for more. I think it’s fairly far fetched to think either has true “star” potential at this point.

 

[JHS]

I like Laf as far as personality goes, willingness to mix it up a bit, and of course his predraft body of work but the facts are pretty simple… he’s underwhelming. He doesn’t jump off the page in ANY category. Stutzle has speed. And I’ve seen him seriously snipe. And he also is just about as physical as Laf. Byfield seems like he blows, but at least has the “huge guys take longer” narrative with his size and plays a desirable position.

Laf MAY or MAY NOT break out some day and be something like a 65-75 point guy with some gritty, pesty qualities. But he probably isn’t going to do it here, and almost certainly not while Zib and Kreider and Panarin are worth any semblance of their contracts. It’s just facing the music. He isn’t going to go on a heater and score 20 points in his next 25 games at ANY point during the next 6 months.

The quality of players going out is greater than the quality coming in. Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider are not going to be replaced by Chytil, Kakko, Kravtsov, Laf or Otthman. Maybe Otthman becomes a Kreider like player or Kakko becomes a solid top line well rounded winger. None of them are 100 point wingers or 40 goal centers. The window is now or never. 3-4 years tops. We won’t draft high enough to land a 1C or a Panarin like talent and Panarin is nose diving off of Everest as far as his overall impact being worth his contract.

Package Laf before his value bottoms out in an organization that can’t develop high end offensive talents for a mid-late 20s already established offensive talent.

Or we can just relive the Lundqvist era and be upper middle tier and win nothing. Again.

Also - as much as I find Laf likable and fun and a good personality, does anyone else think it’s even remotely possible that he got drafted #1OA by big city NYR who treat everyone like Mariah Carey and got good and friendly (because of his personality) with Reavo and Lindy and the crew and felt like he was a big boy who already made it and took his eye waaaayy off the ball? Because I’ve had that feeling before.

Your bold part is exactly been my vibe on this guy too. I don’t think you are off here but obviously have no first hand knowledge. I’m basing my thoughts on the idea that the guy simply has never shown any meaningful off season strides and to me- that’s an indication of how much you “want it.” Jack Hughes came back like 15 pounds heavier and all muscle this season and he’s taken a gigantic leap forward. Laf- nope nothing like that at all.

 

[bigdog16]

Thanks for making this point- I’ve been trying to make it for years around here but no one gets it. By the time NHL players get to that level they are really not “learning” how to play hockey. They need to be guided through adjusting to the professional game and given time to adjust to the speed and physicality at that level. But in terms of developing skills- that’s not gonna happen.

Laf has so many flaws with his game that it’s gonna take far too long to sort it out. He glides around the ice( constantly). He takes horrific angles on defense, he floats with the puck rather than take a powerful first stride once the puck touches his stick, he seems disengaged most games and has shown zero toughness. Sadly, he’s written his own destiny at it looks more and more like he’s on his way out the door and likely destined for one of the worst top overall picks in the past 5 drafts.

Also, is everyone assuming this is play related and not some off the ice situation?

Also these guys are so used to being “the man” at the junior level or whatever level they were playing prior. Its an adjustment.

Laf has never faced adversity until he played pro hockey. Is there a solution to a player overcoming adversity? Sometimes watching from the stands is good for players. It gives them a different view of the game.

But at the end of the day its up to the player

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I agree with everything you’re saying but they hardly look like “future stars”. They’re starting to look like more than replacement level top nine players with potential for more. I think it’s fairly far fetched to think either has true “star” potential at this point.

Maybe budding stars was an overstatement but I feel like both of them will have very long and productive careers as top 6 forwards. I think Kakko becomes an all star.

Also these guys are so used to being “the man” at the junior level or whatever level they were playing prior. Its an adjustment.

Laf has never faced adversity until he played pro hockey. Is there a solution to a player overcoming adversity? Sometimes watching from the stands is good for players. It gives them a different view of the game.

But at the end of the day its up to the player

Watching a few games from the press box is part of a players “development” just as much as giving a kid 4 extra minutes of PP time that he doesn’t deserve. But people here don’t want to hear that.