Alec Baldwin Fatally Shoots Crewmember on Film Set

[tarheelhockey]

Well, Keitel was a Marine before he was an actor. The firearms training that he received seems somewhat relevant to me. You're right that most actors weren't Marines and have assistants, but he's implying that Marines do have people who check guns before they're handed to them, yet they check them, themselves, anyways. He's just arguing that actors should do the same. You could argue that that isn't practical and that they shouldn't have to do that, and you could be right, but his experience still seems relevant to his argument.

His experience is only relevant enough to muddle an argument.

I have been through basic pilot training. Every pilot knows that before you even get in the plane, you always do a walk around to inspect your flaps, landing gear, etc. Pilots that get lazy about the pre-flight checklist end up regretting it sooner or later. If you see a headline about a Cessna going down because of equipment failure, it's totally reasonable to say "that's not acceptable, the pilot should have caught that". It's a lot like a Marine failing to inspect his weapon and accidentally shooting off his own toes.

But that doesn't mean when a commercial flight goes down, you say "every pilot should know you're supposed to do an inspection before takeoff". In that environment, it's simply not his job -- someone else is paid to do that so the pilots can focus on their responsibilities, which are totally different in the commercial sphere.

Keitel's remark sounds a lot more like the latter. Actors aren't Marines. They're not supposed to have to think about whether their gun has a bullet chambered during a scene. Casting blame on them for accidents beyond their control is misguided, and absolves the actual responsible party.

 

[Osprey]

His experience is only relevant enough to muddle an argument.

I have been through basic pilot training. Every pilot knows that before you even get in the plane, you always do a walk around to inspect your flaps, landing gear, etc. Pilots that get lazy about the pre-flight checklist end up regretting it sooner or later. If you see a headline about a Cessna going down because of equipment failure, it's totally reasonable to say "that's not acceptable, the pilot should have caught that". It's a lot like a Marine failing to inspect his weapon and accidentally shooting off his own toes.

But that doesn't mean when a commercial flight goes down, you say "every pilot should know you're supposed to do an inspection before takeoff". In that environment, it's simply not his job -- someone else is paid to do that so the pilots can focus on their responsibilities, which are totally different in the commercial sphere.

Keitel's remark sounds a lot more like the latter. Actors aren't Marines. They're not supposed to have to think about whether their gun has a bullet chambered during a scene. Casting blame on them for accidents beyond their control is misguided, and absolves the actual responsible party.

Commercial pilots do do pre-flight checks. They just do them in the cockpit. Even if the plane was flown less than an hour ago (and, presumably, checked by its crew), they still have to go through the whole checklist. They can be held responsible if they don't and the plane goes down.

 

[Richard]

Commercial pilots do do pre-flight checks. They just do them in the cockpit. Even if the plane was flown less than an hour ago (and, presumably, checked by its crew), they still have to go through the whole checklist. They can be held responsible if they don't and the plane goes down.

Ya but they don't do the maintenance jesus christ. Have you seen a pilot out of the plane checking the engine?? They take the tool as given.

Stop being an idiot.

Just imagine the liability for every actor wanna be weapons specialist checking their weapon. You have ONE expert in charge and the buck stops there. If you don't you have chaos. If the expert doesn't do their job you have negligence. Chaos kills. Negligence kills.

STOP

It is just a stupid opinion man, give it up.

Here we have negligence and it killed.

 

[DoyleG]

Ya but they don't do the maintenance jesus christ. Have you seen a pilot out of the plane checking the engine?? They take the tool as given.

How often do pilots find problems during preflight walk-arounds?

Walk arounds are part of the pre-flight checklist and are considered mandatory by government and airlines. Just because a mechanic worked on the engine doesn't mean anything is wrong.

 

[Osprey]

Ya but they don't do the maintenance jesus christ. Have you seen a pilot out of the plane checking the engine?? They take the tool as given.

Stop being an idiot.

Just imagine the liability for every actor wanna be weapons specialist checking their weapon. You have ONE expert in charge and the buck stops there. If you don't you have chaos. If the expert doesn't do their job you have negligence. Chaos kills. Negligence kills.

STOP

It is just a stupid opinion man, give it up.

Here we have negligence and it killed.

I wish that you would've spared me the lecture and rudeness. I didn't even give an opinion. I only argued the relevancy of Keitel's experience and an analogy. There was no need for this.

 

[DoyleG]

Don't these things contradict each other? Always treat a gun as though it's loaded = NEVER point it at someone unless you are prepared to kill them?

Pretty much.

There seems to be a huge disconnect in this thread about how weapons are handled.

 

[Osprey]

no no no.

he's an executive producer.. you know that's just a title so he can get paid more right ?

He's a regular producer, according to IMDb. Also, as I've pointed out, he's the most experienced producer (by a long shot), owns the production company, co-wrote the story and called this a "passion project," so I suspect that it's more than just a title. I had the same guess as you until I learned all of that, though.

It's still not his job. The conditions on set, yes. He could be held accountable for that. But there's three other people that are hired to specifically make sure that gun is safe. He's at fault for hiring the people that hired those people at best.

Those other responsibilities are what I was referring to.

 

[Canucky]

Baldwin doesn't suck because of his politics. He sucks because he's an abusive asshole and now just added union busting reckless douche to his title.

Thank you. How many times does one get anger management classes, before you become prohibited from touching real firearms?

 

[Richard]

Alec Baldwin shooting: 'Rust' armorer Hannah Gutierrez says she doesn't know how live ammo got on set, according to attorneys - CNN

As I said earlier, this is feeling more and more like a disgruntled employee put a live round in. I just feel it and said that 5 pages ago.

 

[kook10]

It would be nice to see the completion bond companies, insurers, the guilds, and IATSE Local 600 (camera - which is a national local) impose their own rules and conditions on the weapons issue. The props locals don't have enough teeth, especially since outside of LA and NY the incentives (and a general race to the bottom) have brought so many productions to gun toting states and are also are often right-to-work states anyway, and thereby easily replaced with non union. However if the money or the cameras stop or the actors walk, there is no show. You can't replace them with a scab.

 

[Osprey]

It may be true that the armorer doesn't know where the live ammo came from, i.e. who supplied it. What's hard to believe is that she didn't know that it was used in the guns that she's responsible for. It's like if you're hosting a party for under-age kids and someone brings beer. Whether you know who brought it is beside the point. If she had any idea that the guns were used for target practice and she didn't check every one of them afterwards, then she's in big trouble. Even if she had no clue, she's still in trouble because it was her job to check the guns before putting them on the cart.

 

[Richard]

It may be true that the armorer doesn't know where the live ammo came from, i.e. who supplied it. What's hard to believe that she didn't know that it was used in the guns that she's responsible for. It's like if you're hosting a party for under-age kids and someone brings beer. Whether you know who brought it is beside the point. If she had any idea that the guns were used for target practice and she didn't check every one of them afterwards, then she's in big trouble. Even if she had no clue, she's still in trouble because it was her job to check the guns before putting them on the cart.

Agree in the majority - however, I would point out that she is there to prevent accidents- ie negligence. If someone set out to intentionally do harm I don't know how culpable she would be if she followed the safety guidelines?

 

[NyQuil]

How often do pilots find problems during preflight walk-arounds?

Walk arounds are part of the pre-flight checklist and are considered mandatory by government and airlines. Just because a mechanic worked on the engine doesn't mean anything is wrong.

True, but I can't recall any story of an airplane mishap, running off the runway, engine problem etc. being linked to the pilot not doing an appropriate pre-flight check.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Alec Baldwin shooting: 'Rust' armorer Hannah Gutierrez says she doesn't know how live ammo got on set, according to attorneys - CNN

As I said earlier, this is feeling more and more like a disgruntled employee put a live round in. I just feel it and said that 5 pages ago.

Didn't they say early on that some people from set took guns out for shooting without permission

That I assume would be how live rounds may have gotten in with blanks

 

[Osprey]

Didn't they say early on that some people from set took guns out for shooting without permission

That I assume would be how live rounds may have gotten in with blanks

The gun wasn't supposed to be loaded at all, not even with blanks, so it can't be that live rounds and blanks got mixed up. It seems like a live round that was in the gun when they ended target practice was still in there when the scene was filmed.

 

[Canucky]

Anyone watch Baldwin's interview? Wow.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Anyone watch Baldwin's interview? Wow.

A strange scene for sure. Never a fan of people being stalked to pounce on them with questions while they are with their family.

 

[DoyleG]

True, but I can't recall any story of an airplane mishap, running off the runway, engine problem etc. being linked to the pilot not doing an appropriate pre-flight check.

Aircraft Accident Report, Takeoff Stall in Icing Conditions, USAir Flight 405, Fokker F-28, N485US, LaGuardia Airport, Flushing, New York, March 22, 1992

Now, you can take the trolling elsewhere.

 

[NyQuil]

View attachment 475825
Aircraft Accident Report, Takeoff Stall in Icing Conditions, USAir Flight 405, Fokker F-28, N485US, LaGuardia Airport, Flushing, New York, March 22, 1992

Now, you can take the trolling elsewhere.

LOL, trolling?

You find me one incident from 1992 and that’s conclusive?

But yes, US Air 405 Fokker F-28 has gone down in history as one of the most infamous air travel incidents in history.

 

[Perennial]

I'll chime in with a few thoughts...

Firstly, unless Alec slid a live round into the chamber, he is completely free of culpability from a moral perspective, IMO... it should be assumed that the person on set responsible for such things would ensure the gun isn't a hazard to anyone before relinquishing it to an actor or crew member

Secondly, I feel so bad for Alec. Just imagine the immediate terror, regret, and helplessness he must've felt in the moments following the incident... it's something he'll have to carry with him for the rest of his life. What an absolutely crazy scene it must've been...

Thirdly, I'm not sure how far along into production they were, but if this was a project the victim was passionate about, it's a shame they've shut it down... perhaps a better approach would have been to finish the film, and then donate the profits to the woman's husband and child

 

[DoyleG]

I'll chime in with a few thoughts...

Firstly, unless Alec slid a live round into the chamber, he is completely free of culpability from a moral perspective, IMO... it should be assumed that the person on set responsible for such things would ensure the gun isn't a hazard to anyone before relinquishing it to an actor or crew member

Secondly, I feel so bad for Alec. Just imagine the immediate terror, regret, and helplessness he must've felt in the moments following the incident... it's something he'll have to carry with him for the rest of his life. What an absolutely crazy scene it must've been...

Thirdly, I'm not sure how far along into production they were, but if this was a project the victim was passionate about, it's a shame they've shut it down... perhaps a better approach would have been to finish the film, and then donate the profits to the woman's husband and child

The problem is that, being an executive producer, he ends up holding responsibility due to him being required to ensure a safe work environment. The whole off set issues with the crew already set the whole situation in a bad light.

 

[Perennial]

The problem is that, being an executive producer, he ends up holding responsibility due to him being required to ensure a safe work environment. The whole off set issues with the crew already set the whole situation in a bad light.

I said from a moral perspective, not a legal one...

 

[DoyleG]

I said from a moral perspective, not a legal one...

Even in a moral respect, he still faces repercussions.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Not surprised to see the crowd of 'Something bad happened, so there must be a conspiricy about' stalking this thread.

I guess this is the first time a work place accident has ever happened, so there for it must be a conspiricy.

If I had a penny for everytime someone on a work site I was on didn't do their job, which led to an accident waiting to happen (aka near miss), I would be a millionare.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Not surprised to see the crowd of 'Something bad happened, so there must be a conspiricy about' stalking this thread.

I guess this is the first time a work place accident has ever happened, so there for it must be a conspiricy.

If I had a penny for everytime someone on a work site I was on didn't do their job, which led to an accident waiting to happen (aka near miss), I would be a millionare.

One of my fiancée's friends is totally convinced that Baldwin murdered the poor woman on purpose because she was a union member. Absolutely bonkers, lol.