Alain Vigneault

[Doctyl]

I don't know, I thought he was done but he's been good with LA and I wouldn't say LA is his type of team.

I'm actually pretty surprised to see how well he's been doing with the kings. I thought he was done with cbus, but I guess they really weren't his team.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think their improvements have less to do with AV vs Torts than they have to do with the natural development curves of the players.

I understand where you are coming from but many people felt that the only reason MZA was even on the team was Slats. That Torts did not want him and that is the reason he left to the KHL. Numerous posters in the previous 3 years said that MZA was not a Torts guy. Last season MZA was not brought back until it looked like the team would miss the playoffs.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I understand where you are coming from but many people felt that the only reason MZA was even on the team was Slats. That Torts did not want him and that is the reason he left to the KHL. Numerous posters in the previous 3 years said that MZA was not a Torts guy. Last season MZA was not brought back until it looked like the team would miss the playoffs.

God forbid the team gets a player with talent, vision, and creativity. Nope, need to dump and chase and block shots. ****ing Torts.

 

[Tawnos]

I understand where you are coming from but many people felt that the only reason MZA was even on the team was Slats. That Torts did not want him and that is the reason he left to the KHL. Numerous posters in the previous 3 years said that MZA was not a Torts guy. Last season MZA was not brought back until it looked like the team would miss the playoffs.

He left for the KHL because he didn't have a contract yet when the lockout began. He didnt have an out clause and he was brought back as soon as his KHL deal expired.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Zucc is not a Torts type player.

Honestly, I'd say he is. He busts his ass, always backchecks, stands up for his teammates/himself, and he's probably the most willing shot blocker on this team up front.

Torts handling of Zucc last year was fine, IMO.

 

[True Blue]

God forbid the team gets a player with talent, vision, and creativity. Nope, need to dump and chase and block shots. ****ing Torts.

Never quite miss a moment to dump on him, huh? Yes, it seems that Zucc & Kreider have improved. However, others (see Stepan) seem to have stopped progressing. Players like Girardi & Stall seemed to have thrived under Torts. And not like he hurt MCD's development.

I get that you do not like the guy, but to constantly trash him is short sighted.

 

[Jersey Girl]

God forbid the team gets a player with talent, vision, and creativity. Nope, need to dump and chase and block shots. ****ing Torts.

I was no huge fan of Torts, but it must be mentioned he brought us closer to the Stanley Cup than we've been in a long time. Much closer.

If this team loses in the first round, Torts will look even better.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Honestly, I'd say he is. He busts his ass, always backchecks, stands up for his teammates/himself, and he's probably the most willing shot blocker on this team up front.

Torts handling of Zucc last year was fine, IMO.

Yeah but he doesn't dump and chase and grind. Defensively he's fine. Offensively he's not a neanderthal.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He left for the KHL because he didn't have a contract yet when the lockout began. He didnt have an out clause and he was brought back as soon as his KHL deal expired.

He never would have left if he felt wanted here. Even his bashers always said he was not one of Torts guys. That's why it was important that when he came back it was on a 1 way deal. He did not come back right after the KHL season. It was around a month later and Torts did not sound thrilled about it at the time. Slats wanted Zooks not Torts.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Never quite miss a moment to dump on him, huh? Yes, it seems that Zucc & Kreider have improved. However, others (see Stepan) seem to have stopped progressing. Players like Girardi & Stall seemed to have thrived under Torts. And not like he hurt MCD's development.

I get that you do not like the guy, but to constantly trash him is short sighted.

You bring up Stepan but he didn't "stop progressing". At this point it seems like last season might have either been an outlier or this season he never quite got into shape after holding out. Stepan's last 25 or so games have been PPG and he's been the player he was last year. I also just think a lot of it was mental, his shooting percentage was very low most of the season. Last year he was very confident in his shot. It's not a coincidence that when his confidence returned he was a PPG player for a long stretch. He looked like MSL did this year for a while, just couldn't buy a goal. Now granted he wasn't as tenacious as he was the previous year most of the year, but he's been trending the same way the last 25 or so games, so it's possible also that he figured out AV's system later. Whatever it is, right now he was the same player he was last year, except not as productive because instead of 40 PPG games he had 25. I don't think it has anything to do with Torts and if it does Stepan seemed to have figured it out. This was Stepan's second best season in the NHL too.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I was no huge fan of Torts, but it must be mentioned he brought us closer to the Stanley Cup than we've been in a long time. Much closer.

If this team loses in the first round, Torts will look even better.

The funny thing is IMO this Flyers team is better than either of those teams we barely beat in 11-12.

 

[Jersey Girl]

The funny thing is IMO this Flyers team is better than either of those teams we barely beat in 11-12.

Perhaps - this is an extremely subjective argument, however. We'll never know if that Caps team could have beaten the Devils in the next round or not. Definitely possible. And this Flyers team is definitely beatable.

And 'barely beat' doesn't matter in the playoffs. You either win and move on, or you lose. You can't 'barely beat' anyone more than we 'barely beat' the Devils in 1994, but all that matters is we won and they lost. End of story.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Perhaps - this is an extremely subjective argument, however. This Flyers team is definitely beatable.

And 'barely beat' doesn't matter in the playoffs. You either win and move on, or you lose. You can't 'barely beat' anyone more than we 'barely beat' the Devils in 1994, but all that matters is we won and they lost. End of story.

Except in 1994 we thrashed the two low seeded teams we played in the first two rounds. NJ was a great team. And no it doesn't matter, like "barely beating" a team doesn't matter ever unless they go into a tie breaker that they never reach. My point was that Torts was not the difference between beating the Sens and Caps and losing to them.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Perhaps - this is an extremely subjective argument, however. This Flyers team is definitely beatable.

And 'barely beat' doesn't matter in the playoffs. You either win and move on, or you lose. You can't 'barely beat' anyone more than we 'barely beat' the Devils in 1994, but all that matters is we won and they lost. End of story.

The "funny thing" is this should be expected considering the Rangers were #1 in their conference in 2012 and are essentially #5 in 2014, so some tougher competition should be expected.

This couldn't possibly be a way for Snowblind to hedge himself if the Rangers lose in the 1st round though, right?? Nahhhh

 

[Jersey Girl]

My point was that Torts was not the difference between beating the Sens and Caps and losing to them.

If that's your opinion that's fine, but that doesn't make it fact.

I just find it difficult to dump on a coach that took a team most agree was not loaded with talent - or goalscoring - within two games of the Stanley Cup finals.

 

[NickyFotiu]

If that's your opinion that's fine, but that doesn't make it fact.

I just find it difficult to dump on a coach that took a team most agree was not loaded with talent - or goalscoring - within two games of the Stanley Cup finals.

So if you give his coaching credit for a teams wins you must also give him blame for the losses right? After all fair is fair. So when Van crashes and misses the playoffs it must be due to his coaching as well.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If that's your opinion that's fine, but that doesn't make it fact.

I just find it difficult to dump on a coach that took a team most agree was not loaded with talent - or goalscoring - within two games of the Stanley Cup finals.

I will give you that. I still can dump on him, but the job he did in 11-12 was really good. I know he somehow won a cup with Tampa, but nowadays he needs a team full of grinders to be successful. Look at him in Vancouver.

 

[Jersey Girl]

I will give you that. I still can dump on him, but the job he did in 11-12 was really good. I know he somehow won a cup with Tampa, but nowadays he needs a team full of grinders to be successful. Look at him in Vancouver.

Such a strange situation in Vancouver. How on earth do they go from having two strong goalies (which was a problem in and of itself) to zero? How do you trade both? It's not like they have John Gibson waiting in the wings like Anaheim does. Bizarre.

Torts, of course, did not help the situation (I'm sure he wishes he never went down to the Calgary dressing room), but that organization was dysfunctional long before Torts got there. I never saw that as a good fit for either the team or the coach, and of course they now have wholesale changes going on there.

Someday someone is going to write a book about how Vancouver went from where they were to where they are, and Torts is only one chapter of many.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

I was no huge fan of Torts, but it must be mentioned he brought us closer to the Stanley Cup than we've been in a long time. Much closer.

If this team loses in the first round, Torts will look even better.

Yeaaaah, no.

That team was an anomaly and it's too bad because it gives dolts something to cling to, dolts like Torts whose system isn't highly effective which seems obvious now that he's coached another team into the ground. It's too reliant on specific player types and personalities. If he stays in Vancouver and doesn't change his system and/or personnel you can expect similar results next season. Except now instead of a Vezina caliber goalie bailing him out he's got an unproven youngster.

 

[True Blue]

Except in 1994 we thrashed the two low seeded teams we played in the first two rounds. NJ was a great team.

In 1994 they barely squeaked by a 7th seed to win the Cup.

Look at him in Vancouver.

Look at him at his career.

 

[True Blue]

That team was an anomaly and it's too bad because it gives dolts something to cling to, dolts like Torts whose system isn't highly effective

Again, how many other dolts had the success that Torts had as a Rangers coach?

Like him or not, he took an team lacking on talent, lacking true top-6 forwards to the best record in the conference and within 2 games of the Finals. Just what is it that you are trying to nitpick? When AV does that, we can lump him into the same, small pantheon.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Yeaaaah, no.

That team was an anomaly and it's too bad because it gives dolts something to cling to, dolts like Torts whose system isn't highly effective which seems obvious now that he's coached another team into the ground. It's too reliant on specific player types and personalities. If he stays in Vancouver and doesn't change his system and/or personnel you can expect similar results next season. Except now instead of a Vezina caliber goalie bailing him out he's got an unproven youngster.

Well this dolt is not clinging to any system, just stating facts.

Torts brought the Rangers further than anyone has since we had Mark Messier Wayne Gretzky, and Brian Leetch. Dump on him and his system all you like, call them an anomaly as much as you like, but you cannot change history.

And it wasn't a fluke playoff run with a hot goalie - Torts also brought the team over a long season to the best record in the East and within two games of the Stanley Cup finals. Facts.

FWIW I hated Torts' system, even when we were winning - the endless five on five power plays where we spent a month in our zone at a time were mind numbing to say the least. But that doesn't take away from what Torts accomplished here.

And saying Torts ran Vancouver into the ground is short-sighted and uninformed. It probably looks that way from 3,000 miles away, but those who have been paying attention know that Torts was just one more mistake by a highly dysfunctional management team that ran the organization into the ground from above.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yeaaaah, no.

That team was an anomaly and it's too bad because it gives dolts something to cling to, dolts like Torts whose system isn't highly effective which seems obvious now that he's coached another team into the ground..

An anomaly in what sense? That it was one of the only Ranger teams in the past few decades that turned in a performance greater than the sum of its parts? Contrary to popular belief, Tortorella didn't always coach that way -- but he did help the Rangers advance to their furthest point in 20 years by bending to the reality that the Rangers were not as inherently talented as so many of the fans thought they were.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Again, how many other dolts had the success that Torts had as a Rangers coach?

Like him or not, he took an team lacking on talent, lacking true top-6 forwards to the best record in the conference and within 2 games of the Finals. Just what is it that you are trying to nitpick? When AV does that, we can lump him into the same, small pantheon.

Only one guy can coach a team at a time. Given the disparity in talent over the years it's not an apples to apples comparison. Torts got us close to a cup, YAY! I don't cling to almost successes. Sorry.

He also took a team that had been in the PO's five straight years, had won 4 division titles, two presidents trophies, and reached the finals all recently, and cratered them by going away from their strengths and focusing on his style.

So if we are to compare AV's success here to Torts one good year where so far the results are on par. We must do the same to Torts in Vancouver. I'm sorry but the results aren't pretty, sure he could have success there too, problem is it will take him several years to bring in the pieces he needs to play his style. In which time things change and so it's no guarantee how far he'll get. He's behind the times a little, whereas a coach that can adapt to his team always has an upper hand.

Pretty simple really.

 

[JayMan82]

Not sure if this is posted yet, but Steve Mason missing from practice:

http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/...n_missing_from_flyers_practice_wednesday.html