News Article: Agents Poll: Dubas voted the best GM to get client a good deal from

[Ciao]

it seems Dubas over pays everyone , young and old - Tavares/Muzzin

and rfa's can't ''hit the open market''

Call it what you like, RFA's can negotiate with any and every franchise, subject to the right to match or compensation -- and the Leafs could not have let that happen.

In my opinion, Tavares was not an overpay, and neither was Muzzin. Yours might differ, but it is a matter of opinion.

 

[biotk]

I never once said it was easy. And it was never going to happen with Babs in control. Losing our 1st rounder in a deep draft p*sses me off.

Then be pissed at Lou and Babs over Marleau getting 3 years as a 35+ contract.

 

[hotpaws]

i misread what u wrote so enjoy this photo of nick young:

i corrected my post since it didn't make sense , i have to stop posting while i'm watching tv , lol

 

[hotpaws]

60/70* 82 = 70.
List em then. Top 5 picks that were over a cumulative point per game from 27-28-29 and then fell off a cliff to the point of being "anchors" by 34. Stars peak higher and last longer just below that peak. JT is a star.His entire Leaf career will be played younger than post lockout Sundin.

Expecting a precipitous drop in the play of someone with JT's ability and pedigree at the age we have him is pessimistic at best.

so now they have to be to 5 picks , lol

JT has been about a ppg player with mediocre D his entire career to date , he doesn't have to have a precipitous drop in production to be considered a cap anchor unless of course you believe him dropping to even 60ish points is good value at 11m per .

JT is slow and he's getting slower in a league that's keeps getting faster so you can bury your head in the sand and believe he'll still be worth 11m per for the remaining 5 yrs but reality suggests otherwise .

 

[hotpaws]

Call it what you like, RFA's can negotiate with any and every franchise, subject to the right to match or compensation -- and the Leafs could not have let that happen.

In my opinion, Tavares was not an overpay, and neither was Muzzin. Yours might differ, but it is a matter of opinion.

i guess your right considering the large amount of obscene offer sheets rfa players sign every year , lol

and of course JT and Muzzin aren't overpays either in cap hit or term just like 90% of this board were saying Phaneuf wasn't and he'd easily be worth his salary for the duration of the term

 

[4thline]

so now they have to be to 5 picks , lol

JT has been about a ppg player with mediocre D his entire career to date , he doesn't have to have a precipitous drop in production to be considered a cap anchor unless of course you believe him dropping to even 60ish points is good value at 11m per .

Strike top 5, instead do it with career above .9 to 29 years old, 27,28,29 above point per game. Show how they did at 33 and 34. Step up. Do the work to back up your pessimism. I'll even open it up and include players that were top 20 in cumulative league scoring over their 27-28-29 seasons. Want to know a guy that was top 10 over his 31-32-33, you singled out as being worse than JT, and is also not a burner? Wheeler

There's a middle ground between "cap anchor" and "good value". I expect to earn his cap hit and be a star level player for 5 years of his deal, then likely at atleast a solid 60 point 1B centre or 1st line LW for the last two. Considering 2c guys expected to get ~45 ish points are bringing in 6-7 at current cap. If the economy recovers and we see even modest five year cap growth to 90 ish that sets a ~45 point 2C in the 7.7 range, a 60+ point low end 1 a couple of mill higher. So yeah that's a million or two pure cap deficit, but still invested in coveted top line player on the roster. That's not a cap anchor.

 

[deletethis]

If an agent has never dealt with Dubas he isn't going to have an opinion on Dubas. There are more than 100 agents.

 

[hotpaws]

Strike top 5, instead do it with career above .9 to 29 years old, 27,28,29 above point per game. Show how they did at 33 and 34. Step up. Do the work to back up your pessimism.

There's a middle ground between "cap anchor" and "good value". I expect to earn his cap hit and be a star level player for 5 years of his deal, then likely at atleast a solid 60 point 1B centre or 1st line LW for the last two. Considering 2c guys expected to get ~45 ish points are bringing in 6-7 at current cap. If the economy recovers and we see even modest five year cap growth to 90 ish that sets a ~45 point 2C in the 7.7 range, a 60+ point low end 1 a couple of mill higher. So yeah that's a million or two pure cap deficit, but still invested in coveted top line player on the roster. That's not a cap anchor.

anymore conditions before i waste my time and make a list ? how about we limit it to players who's first names start with J and last names start with T ?

Heatley/Gaborik/Spezza/Nash/Stall/Perry and that was just taking a quick look of quality players who's games feel off around 30 and that was my point and not some crap about having to have a tight set of conditions to meet like your trying to do since you know your wrong .

JT makes 11m per , for 11m per i want someone who can control the flow of play not just hang around the net while others create chances for him so he can pad his stats , You can twist it all you want since it seems you believe as a "real fan" you have to defend every f***ing move the team makes but at the end of the day all your pom pom waving means absolutely nothing because it has zero effect on how the team plays .

 

[saffronleaf]

lol I don't think this means much but it's not a good look

 

[4thline]

Heatley/Gaborik/Spezza/Nash/Stall/Perry and that was just taking a quick look of quality players who's games feel off around 30 and that was my point and not some crap about having to have a tight set of conditions to meet like your trying to do since you know your wrong .

Lol,
Comparing like to like is a pretty big part of doing analysis. A muchbigger part than ad hominem attacks actually. How good a player is in their peak and late 20's, if they've already started to see a decline, all indicators of their expected fall off.
Kudos for at least trying, but you're flailing in the wind.
Heatley- fell off a cliff at 29 and was essentially done by 31. Barely qualifies at 20th in scoring, .89 ppg
Gaborik- couldn't stay healthy his entire career, relied on his speed. From 30-34 averaged 50 games per season. Again barely qualifies at 20th, .95
Spezza-good comparison as a cerebral centre. No where near top 20 due to injury, .99. Remained a 60-70 point C until 33, fell off at 34
Nash- a mediocre winger overrated because of tools and international play. 60th in scoring, .73 (no where near qualifying
Staal- another good comparison. 13th, .88. Had down seasons from 29-31, then had 65 and 76 point seasons at 32 and 33
Perry- again barely qualifies at 18th and .88. Decline happened suddenly at 29, held 50+ point level from 29-32

So a scattering of wingers that either flamed out early/ due to injury/ or just weren't as good, a couple of centres that actually support the idea that there's a decent chance he'll remain productive. You missed Lecavalier as probably your best support. But even he was productive, just ground down by injuries.

Against all of the the stars that were consistent to 29 then continued into their early-mid 30's.

 

[ACC1224]

Call it what you like, RFA's can negotiate with any and every franchise, subject to the right to match or compensation -- and the Leafs could not have let that happen.

In my opinion, Tavares was not an overpay, and neither was Muzzin. Yours might differ, but it is a matter of opinion.

I believe the GM has a year to sign the RFA players before they can negotiate with other teams. Thats something that could have been done.

 

[Ciao]

I believe the GM has a year to sign the RFA players before they can negotiate with other teams. Thats something that could have been done.

Isn't that exactly what happened?

Matthews signed in February 2019, during the 2018-19 exclusive bargaining window.

It avoided the Nylander situation where neither Lou nor Kyle could get a deal done before he became an RFA -- and that Kyle repeated with Marner.

No one wanted to see that happen with Matthews. He is too big a fish. It was never an option.

 

[Ciao]

i guess your right considering the large amount of obscene offer sheets rfa players sign every year , lol

and of course JT and Muzzin aren't overpays either in cap hit or term just like 90% of this board were saying Phaneuf wasn't and he'd easily be worth his salary for the duration of the term

Would remind me of the last player of Auston Matthews calibre, or any former 1OA pick for that matter, that was left unsigned before becoming an RFA?

I just can't remember one.

 

[ACC1224]

Isn't that exactly what happened?

Matthews signed in February 2019, during the 2018-19 exclusive bargaining window.
n option.
It avoided the Nylander situation where neither Lou nor Kyle could get a deal done before he became an RFA -- and that Kyle repeated with Marner.

No one wanted to see that happen with Matthews. He is too big a fish. It was never an option.

I think I misunderstood your post. Definitely something that could have been done. Marner should have been signed earlier when the situation presented itself, that cost the Leafs a lot of cap.
I believe in all situations it never comes down to ‘there is nothing that could have been done’. There are always options to be found. Its a weak excuse, IMO.

 

[Ciao]

I think I misunderstood your post. Definitely something that could have been done. Marner should have been signed earlier when the situation presented itself, that cost the Leafs a lot of cap.
I believe in all situations it never comes down to ‘there is nothing that could have been done’. There are always options to be found. Its a weak excuse, IMO.

I think Dubas mishandled the Marner negotiation.

Live and learn, I hope.

 

[ACC1224]

I think Dubas mishandled the Marner negotiation.

Live and learn, I hope.

All we have is hope, he should have learned from Nylander.
Here's to hoping he doesn't win the 'pushover' category in the future.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Most prospects eligible for 2022 are not even playing in Junior yet, so what the heck do those people know? As someone who has been following the drafts in the CHL, there will be talent available after the 1st round. I am more concerned about what will fill the draft between the top guys like Savoie/Wright/Lambert/Luneau and the rest of the draft, but there is 2 years for that to be figured out.

As for this draft, it is heavily overrated. It has a nice top 10-15 and good wing depth which runs deep enough that we will be able to get a number of them in the mid-late rounds where we have a ton of picks. Defense is mostly average, and center/goalie is below average. No top 60 caliber goalies after Askarov, and many of the centes after the top 15 will either have to move to the wing or have good 3C/decent 2C upside. An average draft has legit top 6 caliber centers for at least the entire 1st round, if the top 45.

I look at the G/O and go with what my buddies who have coached these kids since they could p*ss say. As the G/O go so does da hockey world. It has been like that from beginning. And the 2020 draft is loaded and deep. What you are talking about was the age 97 draft which I know like clockwork. The talent up top was amazing but it dropped off a cliff after pick 25. This draft is not like that draft it has 75-90 guys who can play in da NHL.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Then be pissed at Lou and Babs over Marleau getting 3 years as a 35+ contract.

That is a tough one. Personally I was not in favor. But year 1 proved me wrong. He was a top line performer in da playoffs. Then father time kicked in at camp in year 2. My real issue was what we lost on getting rid of him. It was way way too steep. There should have been a better way. But I get it with a rook GM. Again bad call but it is part of learning process.

 

[aingefan]

lol I don't think this means much but it's not a good look

Meh. It’s not much more than a hot take.

 

[biotk]

That is a tough one. Personally I was not in favor. But year 1 proved me wrong. He was a top line performer in da playoffs. Then father time kicked in at camp in year 2. My real issue was what we lost on getting rid of him. It was way way too steep. There should have been a better way. But I get it with a rook GM. Again bad call but it is part of learning process.

It was an extremely bad contract. Signing a 35+ contract for 3 years is foolish. The only other recent 3-year 35+ contract was Kovalchuk - which was terminated less than half the way through. There was no way around it. The Leafs would never have gotten away with LTIR.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It was an extremely bad contract. Signing a 35+ contract for 3 years is foolish. The only other recent 3-year 35+ contract was Kovalchuk - which was terminated less than half the way through. There was no way around it. The Leafs would never have gotten away with LTIR.

Guys have gotten away with worse. Da issue would have been Marleau himself. He tried every trick in da book to get over his back aches during games. Between physical therapists, ice baths between periods, pain killers and chiropractors he tried every scheme known to hockey. Bottom line he was fine for a few shifts then he seized up and he was done. Aging vets who want to play try everything. Da issue was marleau agreeing to LTIR while he still wanted to hunt for da games streak. Once da streak ended with him as a healthy scratch then maybe he would not have cared. Hard to know for sure as he was a private guy. But Babs decided to honor his word and his deal. It was a tough situation. But agree i don't care what babs said upfront 3 years was too long. and if it was da only way to get him to come here then PASS. Da cost for 1 year of marleau was way way too high 18M+ and a 1st round pick. and we didn't even get a 1st round win.

 

[deletethis]

The Marleau signing is sort of like the Kadri trade in retrospect. When Marleau was signed there were no $11M forwards let alone 3 of them and a need for veteran leadership. I still say that contract should have been used to leverage down negotiations with Matthews, Marner, Kapanen and Johnsson. And only once the cap was exceeded would I have paid to move the Marleau contract.

 

[biotk]

Guys have gotten away with worse. Da issue would have been Marleau himself. He tried every trick in da book to get over his back aches during games. Between physical therapists, ice baths between periods, pain killers and chiropractors he tried every scheme known to hockey. Bottom line he was fine for a few shifts then he seized up and he was done. Aging vets who want to play try everything. Da issue was marleau agreeing to LTIR while he still wanted to hunt for da games streak. Once da streak ended with him as a healthy scratch then maybe he would not have cared. Hard to know for sure as he was a private guy. But Babs decided to honor his word and his deal. It was a tough situation. But agree i don't care what babs said upfront 3 years was too long. and if it was da only way to get him to come here then PASS. Da cost for 1 year of marleau was way way too high 18M+ and a 1st round pick. and we didn't even get a 1st round win.

Everyone plays through aches and pains. There was no chance that the NHL would have accepted an LTIR claim for Marleau under the circumstances. Marleau had all the power. Lou should have known that at the time. I have little doubt that the Marleau contract contributed to Shanahan losing faith in Lou.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Everyone plays through aches and pains. There was no chance that the NHL would have accepted an LTIR claim for Marleau under the circumstances. Marleau had all the power. Lou should have known that at the time. I have little doubt that the Marleau contract contributed to Shanahan losing faith in Lou.

I don't know if you realize it but all it takes is for player, team doc and 1 other doc to say he had a degenerative disc problem and could not maintain his game at an NHL level and NHL is fine. And it makes no difference what age a player is. Da issue is almost always da player wanting to play through issues.

 

[biotk]

I don't know if you realize it but all it takes is for player, team doc and 1 other doc to say he had a degenerative disc problem and could not maintain his game at an NHL level and NHL is fine. And it makes no difference what age a player is. Da issue is almost always da player wanting to play through issues.

Marleau wouldn't have said so. And nor should he. The Leafs' signed the contract. Marleau continues to play. He would not have allowed his career to be ended to get the Leafs' out the bind they chose to put themselves in.

The way to avoid bad contracts is to not sign them. It is not to bully one of the most respected players in the game, who wants to continue playing and has continued his very long iron man streak, to fake a career ending injury with all parties likely committing insurance fraud in the process (which the insurance company would definitely investigate, unless the contract was either uninsured or the Leafs chose to not make an insurance claim in which case the other teams would demand an investigation, Toronto would lose, they would have to immediately trade players to become cap compliant and would probably be penalized a first for their actions).