Player Discussion Aatu Raty

[sting101]

A lot of baseless speculation unless PM wants to fill in some blanks on his insider info?? Given him posting and ignoring as he often does i'm filing his post as junk until he steps up for it.

And @credulous there is zero chance these guys don't get a detailed analysis of what to work on with suggestions of how to go about it. Certainly the CBA does allow players to feely conduct themselves on off days and teams cannot be infringing on that. The organization is happy to have some guys training locally where they could be under guidance but it's not mandated nor could it be

If Raty hasn't tapped into the Sedins for tips on how to enhance his skating from what worked for them then he's probably too dumb to be a NHLer. I get the feeling Raty is a pretty sharp guy so while it's possible he's galaxy brained it or has a bad trainer to deliver the routines and wasted time on a bad plan i don't buy they "stick with past plans" (if they aren't working) and lack guidance.

It certainly was a thing in the past though here and why certain organizations were consistently getting the most from their organizations from the ground up vs others that ignored players who weren't blowing the doors off and did a poor job of development.

It's a death sentence overpaying for btm 6 grinders and letting hot dogs like Virtanen showing up as fat ass marshmallows that spent the time lifting weights and going to music festivals while 90% of the entire league who were already better worked like possessed demons. At the end of the day the player has to do the work so we rarely know until training camps how or if that has paid off

 

[credulous]

A lot of baseless speculation unless PM wants to fill in some blanks on his insider info?? Given him posting and ignoring as he often does i'm filing his post as junk until he steps up for it.

And @credulous there is zero chance these guys don't get a detailed analysis of what to work on with suggestions of how to go about it. Certainly the CBA does allow players to feely conduct themselves on off days and teams cannot be infringing on that. The organization is happy to have some guys training locally where they could be under guidance but it's not mandated nor could it be

If Raty hasn't tapped into the Sedins for tips on how to enhance his skating from what worked for them then he's probably too dumb to be a NHLer. I get the feeling Raty is a pretty sharp guy so while it's possible he's galaxy brained it or has a bad trainer to deliver the routines and wasted time on a bad plan i don't buy they "stick with past plans" (if they aren't working) and lack guidance.

i actually do doubt the team is doing "detailed analysis" of what each prospect needs to work on but i think there's a communication gap here. i don't doubt the team is doing some work to prepare players for their summer training plans i just don't think they have the time to go nearly as far as is required for elite athletes

elite athletes work nearly every day with dedicated trainers (sometimes entire staffs) just to keep up. that means active monitoring, active intervention and day to day adjustments. going home with like a workout book and some goals isn't in any way comparable

the canucks have 47 players under contract and another 15 on their reserve list. their entire player development staff is the sedins, mike komisarek and mikael samuelsson. there's zero chance those 4 have enough time to perform the kind of training required of elite athletes. that's why almost every player has outside trainers

for a guy like raty whose career earnings to date are like $350k at most there's simply zero chance he's getting the kind of attention and preparation that other top athletes are getting. he can't afford it and the canucks aren't providing it

 

[arttk]

i actually do doubt the team is doing "detailed analysis" of what each prospect needs to work on but i think there's a communication gap here. i don't doubt the team is doing some work to prepare players for their summer training plans i just don't think they have the time to go nearly as far as is required for elite athletes

elite athletes work nearly every day with dedicated trainers (sometimes entire staffs) just to keep up. that means active monitoring, active intervention and day to day adjustments. going home with like a workout book and some goals isn't in any way comparable

the canucks have 47 players under contract and another 15 on their reserve list. their entire player development staff is the sedins, mike komisarek and mikael samuelsson. there's zero chance those 4 have enough time to perform the kind of training required of elite athletes. that's why almost every player has outside trainers

for a guy like raty whose career earnings to date are like $350k at most there's simply zero chance he's getting the kind of attention and preparation that other top athletes are getting. he can't afford it and the canucks aren't providing it

Yeah we have 47 players but majority of them are vets and don't really need any monitoring. I am pretty sure Tocchet and Foote reaches out to vets once in awhile. But honestly, do you think Hughes, Miller and those guys really need Tocchet and Foote hopping on zoom calls on a daily basis and checking in on their diet and offseason plan, that would show a lack of trust and severe micromanaging.

The development staff probably prioritize our top prospects to make sure they are doing the right things and there are maybe like 10-15 of them and that seems pretty manageable for 4 guys. Unless you think the Sedins also need to call up Hughes, Miller and all the vets everyday to check up on their offseason.

 

[F A N]

And if that is so then it's failure of the development staff who should have provided him with a specific program and been working with him.

i don't think anyone is saying the canucks sent raty off with like three new drills to try and a one page training plan but these are elite athletes who need dedicated training resources and regular supervision and intervention to maximize their performance. the canucks simply do not provide that. and i'm not being critical of the canucks in this regard -- *no* nhl team provides it. even the nba doesn't provide it and they have the most money and the fewest athletes to cater to

Well that's the thing. Raty should have received a training program and education to sufficient work on things over the summer. If "sports science" requires players to actually work with trainers who is there to monitor their work outs and take their blood for analysis etc. then the team should be able to provide guidance and resources or hook up Raty with someone local he can train with. I have a hard time believing that Finland doesn't have a few qualified guys. Heck give Sami Salo a call and ask if he knows anyone.

 

[arttk]

Well that's the thing. Raty should have received a training program and education to sufficient work on things over the summer.

I mean until we get actual reports from people connected to the team that this is not the case, it's more reasonable to assume that the team has given a training program and education.

 

[MS]

i actually do doubt the team is doing "detailed analysis" of what each prospect needs to work on but i think there's a communication gap here. i don't doubt the team is doing some work to prepare players for their summer training plans i just don't think they have the time to go nearly as far as is required for elite athletes

elite athletes work nearly every day with dedicated trainers (sometimes entire staffs) just to keep up. that means active monitoring, active intervention and day to day adjustments. going home with like a workout book and some goals isn't in any way comparable

the canucks have 47 players under contract and another 15 on their reserve list. their entire player development staff is the sedins, mike komisarek and mikael samuelsson. there's zero chance those 4 have enough time to perform the kind of training required of elite athletes. that's why almost every player has outside trainers

for a guy like raty whose career earnings to date are like $350k at most there's simply zero chance he's getting the kind of attention and preparation that other top athletes are getting. he can't afford it and the canucks aren't providing it

The development staff wouldn't be working with veteran players.

They would *absolutely* be working with the team's top 10 prospects (if not all prospects) to develop their off-season training regimen, how much icetime vs gym time, diet, etc. for the summer.

I'd be surprised if for a top-5 prospect like Raty there wasn't some sort of meeting/zoom call with the player, the Sedins, Canuck trainers, and Raty's personal trainer in Finland before everyone parted ways for the offseason to make sure everyone was on the same page and the player was doing the things the organization expected him to do.

Whether the player actually follows through isn't something the team would have control over, but based on the level of detail orientation we see across the organization right now I'd be absolutely shocked if the player was just sent on his way with some generic training ideas.

 

[sting101]

i actually do doubt the team is doing "detailed analysis" of what each prospect needs to work on but i think there's a communication gap here. i don't doubt the team is doing some work to prepare players for their summer training plans i just don't think they have the time to go nearly as far as is required for elite athletes

elite athletes work nearly every day with dedicated trainers (sometimes entire staffs) just to keep up. that means active monitoring, active intervention and day to day adjustments. going home with like a workout book and some goals isn't in any way comparable

the canucks have 47 players under contract and another 15 on their reserve list. their entire player development staff is the sedins, mike komisarek and mikael samuelsson. there's zero chance those 4 have enough time to perform the kind of training required of elite athletes. that's why almost every player has outside trainers

for a guy like raty whose career earnings to date are like $350k at most there's simply zero chance he's getting the kind of attention and preparation that other top athletes are getting. he can't afford it and the canucks aren't providing it

Disagree

It wouldn't take much time to look at video and before/after training/practice sessions to have discussions about what a player needs to work on and get detailed feedback

There is much more than just the headline NHL names. The team also has athletic trainers not just the Sedins Kom and Sam who are in communications with these guys this has been documented.
Canucks have 8 human performance staff plus the AHL guys
Manny Malhotra (this year after Colliton)
Yogi Svejkovsky (promoted now but has been one of the best in the business for over a decade)
John Murray John Murray named new strength and conditioning coach for Abbotsford Canucks looks like an excellent find was working with McDavid and other elites
Jason Krog (skating coach Abby) Andrew Shaw, Jordan Smith.

 

[credulous]

The development staff wouldn't be working with veteran players.

They would *absolutely* be working with the team's top 10 prospects (if not all prospects) to develop their off-season training regimen, how much icetime vs gym time, diet, etc. for the summer.

I'd be surprised if for a top-5 prospect like Raty there wasn't some sort of meeting/zoom call with the player, the Sedins, Canuck trainers, and Raty's personal trainer in Finland before everyone parted ways for the offseason to make sure everyone was on the same page and the player was doing the things the organization expected him to do.

Whether the player actually follows through isn't something the team would have control over, but based on the level of detail orientation we see across the organization right now I'd be absolutely shocked if the player was just sent on his way with some generic training ideas.

we're just disagreeing now on whether the thing you described is sufficient for top athletes. i don't think it is. athletes need hands on trainers not a zoom call once a week

 

[arttk]

we're just disagreeing now on whether the thing you described is sufficient for top athletes. i don't think it is. athletes need hands on trainers not a zoom call once a week

you are assuming that Raty is not paying for any trainers.

 

[credulous]

you are assuming that Raty is not paying for any trainers.

i'm just going by what @PuckMunchkin wrote in the sammy blais thread:

He is training with his Liiga club Oulun Kärpät and the training is not of passable caliber.

if he is paying for top class trainers then good for him. i would hope every canucks prospect is trying to get the best training they can afford. that doesn't change the fact that a good development plan can't replace hands on instruction and active monitoring

 

[arttk]

i'm just going by what @PuckMunchkin wrote in the sammy blais thread:



if he is paying for top class trainers then good for him. i would hope every canucks prospect is trying to get the best training they can afford. that doesn't change the fact that a good development plan can't replace hands on instruction and active monitoring

that's not a reputable source.. hows that different than saying my BBQ salesman told me stuff.

 

[sting101]

i'm just going by what @PuckMunchkin wrote in the sammy blais thread:



if he is paying for top class trainers then good for him. i would hope every canucks prospect is trying to get the best training they can afford. that doesn't change the fact that a good development plan can't replace hands on instruction and active monitoring

Without details PM is just talking out his arse. He claims to be an expert but sure does a lot of speculating without backing it up. You have a guy like @mossey3535 who backs up his claims/declerations with follow up analysis but @PuckMunchkin lights a fire by saying he's doing "not passable caliber training" without details.

I mean he could be right by way of his expertise or from 2nd hand insight but would be a lot more believable and weighted if it wasn't the same poster making shit up to defend Pettersson and ripping Miller with controversial unsubstantiated takes.

Feel free to enlighten us but there's a history here of getting people riled up.

 

[credulous]

Without details PM is just talking out his arse. He claims to be an expert but sure does a lot of speculating without backing it up. You have a guy like @mossey3535 who backs up his claims/declerations with follow up analysis but @PuckMunchkin lights a fire by saying he's doing "not passable caliber training" without details.

I mean he could be right by way of his expertise or from 2nd hand insight but would be a lot more believable and weighted if it wasn't the same poster making shit up to defend Pettersson and ripping Miller with controversial unsubstantiated takes.

Feel free to enlighten us but there's a history here of getting people riled up.

sure this is fair but i'm not even claiming raty isn't getting adequate training

i just suggested that sending players off with a training plan isn't any kind of indication players are getting adequate training in the offseason. there's a ton more to it than just identifying what players need to work on and suggesting workouts and training regimes

and again, i'm not being critical of the work the canucks are doing in this realm. i don't think any pro athlete is getting adequate training from their team. there's a reason they *all* have outside trainers

 

[Andy Dufresne]

that's not a reputable source.. hows that different than saying my BBQ salesman told me stuff.

Your BBQ salesman isn't in Finland though, his is.

 

[Vector]

@credulous Just so we're clear, you do know that the CBA forbids teams from doing any training with players in the off-season? The most they are allowed to do is make recommendations on what to work on and provide a plan. Canucks even got fined last off-seasons ago for having some team representatives on the ice.



I'm not sure what else a team can do.

 

[RobertKron]

OP's position, unless I've misinterpreted it, is that Finland is deeply lacking in infrastructure - both in personnel and facilities - for elite hockey training.

It's one thing to believe OP is full of shit, or to believe they're full of shit until they back up their claims, but it's bizarre to fixate on the claim that Raty lacks the education to self-direct his own offseason training at this level, which is like maybe the only certainly correct thing they've even said.

Regardless of the plan the team has given him for the offseason, I don't really understand how you guys believe the team would be able to give him the education to take the place of high-end training staff and facilities. Like, that's a whole career.

Again, it's a whole other thing to just doubt OP's statements as a whole.

 

[sting101]

This is a good video to watch as you can see a fair amount of progression (even if using just highlights) to show Raty with stronger skating decisions quality vision and finish down the stretch.
The last 5 minutes has some impressive plays

 

[credulous]

@credulous Just so we're clear, you do know that the CBA forbids teams from doing any training with players in the off-season? The most they are allowed to do is make recommendations on what to work on and provide a plan. Canucks even got fined last off-seasons ago for having some team representatives on the ice.



I'm not sure what else a team can do.

i completely understand this. i am *emphatically* not being critical of the work the canucks player development staff is doing

i just think it's not far fetched to think nhl prospects (especially those with limited financial means) aren't getting the kind of offseason training they need

 

[arttk]

Your BBQ salesman isn't in Finland though, his is.

I think Finnish Sauna salesman > BC BBQ salesman

 

[Vector]

i completely understand this. i am *emphatically* not being critical of the work the canucks player development staff is doing

i just think it's not far fetched to think nhl prospects (especially those with limited financial means) aren't getting the kind of offseason training they need

Just checking because I'm not really seeing what else the team could be doing. It sounds like a part of the reason teams are signing prospects immediately after they draft them is so they can provide more support (both financially and actual trainers) for prospects.

 

[sting101]

I'll just say i happen to believe Raty is a smart person and player. I know he's identified his weaknesses and i know he's driven to improve and carve out a NHL career. I also believe that he has worked with our staff and has a comprehensive idea and plan to improve

Last year down the stretch was a 21 yr old player on the cusp of getting a look again in the NHL. He's responsible defensively has a good stick excellent vision and has a NHL level shot with plus size.

Fact is he's slow afoot and not that strong for his size yet. Comparing him to Barkov is absurd. He's really not much farther ahead than Brendan Gaunce was at the same age
in terms of production and stature. If he can't get some athletic improvements he'll be a stick in the mud player because he will be getting blown by and that's a bad look even if you have NHL traits. It's probable that he gets LW minutes to get used to the NHL and i bet that's why they did it last year so he could get used to it positionally and not looked lost.

Good news is at 21 he has lots of runway has shown high end skill and hockey IQ and unlike Gaunce has agility as well as playmaking skills and his skating gets overblown sometimes because it looks awkward more than he can't get to places.
He thinks the game well enough and protects the puck well enough to adjust and get some runway when/if he gets his opportunity. The NHL is very much a can you make good quick decisions vs just skating fast and running around.

I still see a 3C projection if he works his tail off in the right ways and remain bullish on Raty. Wouldn't be surprised if he takes Suter's spot by seasons end

 

[VanJack]

Raty will be one of the most intriguing players to watch in training camp, and as early as the Penticton classic rookie tournament. Has he picked up the half step he needs in the off-season?

Although he played wing for more than a few stretches in Abby last season, I think the Canucks still see him as a center. And surely that's the reason why they traded for him. They needed a younger guy to eventually replace Horvat in the middle. And young, two-way centers are like right-shot, scoring NHL d-men.

They're almost impossible to trade for; and come almost exclusively via the draft. I'm sure Lou was reluctant to give him up on Long Island. But probably felt he'd need at least a couple of seasons of 'development time' and the window for the Islanders to 'win now' was rapidly closing.

Hopefully the Canucks patience with him is rewarded.

 

[arttk]

OP's position, unless I've misinterpreted it, is that Finland is deeply lacking in infrastructure - both in personnel and facilities - for elite hockey training.

It's one thing to believe OP is full of shit, or to believe they're full of shit until they back up their claims, but it's bizarre to fixate on the claim that Raty lacks the education to self-direct his own offseason training at this level, which is like maybe the only certainly correct thing they've even said.

Regardless of the plan the team has given him for the offseason, I don't really understand how you guys believe the team would be able to give him the education to take the place of high-end training staff and facilities. Like, that's a whole career.

Again, it's a whole other thing to just doubt OP's statements as a whole.

I think the claim is that the team has given barely any guidance at all and I think that is the part most of us are reacting to. That sounds like Benning era incompetence and that would be deeply worrying.

I mean the team has development staff in Abby and Raty has just had a full season and a bit in Abby so it's really weird to say that he has zero education and don't know what to work on. That just suggests that either a) development staff is f***ing useless b) Raty is just f***ing dumb. Neither option seems believable.

I think there is a big part that i think a lot of people are overlooking is that, it is completely plausible that even with right trainers and the right program, Raty is just not getting faster. Most players don't drastically improve their skating and even the Sedins took YEARS of roller blading up mountains in the offseason to get to average.

 

[F A N]

Regardless of the plan the team has given him for the offseason, I don't really understand how you guys believe the team would be able to give him the education to take the place of high-end training staff and facilities. Like, that's a whole career.

i just think it's not far fetched to think nhl prospects (especially those with limited financial means) aren't getting the kind of offseason training they need

I think at the end of the day we're trying to gain a competitive advantage. If 99% of NHL players aren't training to their full potential then it's about whether our team can help our players get to that 1%. Of course I'm sure players would benefit from the most advanced sports science training but there are players who grew up without the privileges and that's just life.

Again, if we are to operate on the basis that players really should be working with a qualified trainer, then the team should be putting our players in touch with one. Obviously the team can't force a player to pay for and work with a trainer or even encourage them to stay in town but there are ways to communicate the importance of working with a trainer and giving the player options. You would expect your family doctor to refer you to a good specialist if you need it.

Quite frankly, if the availability of high-end training staff and facilities aren't available and a player/prospect like Raty is training inadequately over the summer, the team should do what they can (including hint hint to the player and agent) to ensure Raty works with a qualified trainer. If Finland is the problem and the player refuses to change his routine then maybe that's a player you get rid of. Personally I'm skeptical about this whole Finland issue. From watching BTS workout videos, it's not like the top NHL players are using some advanced sports science equipment. Like off-ice excerises can involve a lot of foot speed drills on a grass field and of course weight training for maximum power.

Boeser stopped playing in Da Beauty League and got a new trainer (yes availability of one in Edina Minnesota helped). Switching things up was something Boeser said he talked to the Canucks about.

I do expect the CBA to continue to relax their rules involving teams' involvement in a player's off-season training.

 

[sting101]

Raty Lekkerimaki Hoglander Bains Sasson up front and Mynio McWard and EP2 on D are all the most intriguing camp watches for me for various reasons.

As per usual unless something sends alarm bells i mostly couldn't care about the vets as their approaches are measured and results mean less than process and getting themselves ready for Game 1