Player Discussion Aatu Raty

[vadim sharifijanov]

my suspicion is there is a reason why of all our players, the one guy who never regressed and always came back after the off-season better and with new tools has a dad who’s a hockey lifer that spent over twenty years working in player development for various pro and college teams before (i think) rededicating himself to training his boys. not everybody has access to that, not just a dad with that skillset working with you so closely but also a guy who’s been building contacts in the industry — skating and dedicated skill coaches, trainers, dieticians, etc — since the early 90s. a lot of it is quinn himself too, his hockey IQ, his drive, his executive function and attention to detail, as well as him being raised to problem solve his own game from a young age, but you also need access to the resources.

imagine if, say, the young raw edler had that kind of support.

also, am i confusing them with someone else or is puckmunchkin a she?

 

[tantalum]

Yes the canucks were fined 50k for holding on-ice sessions with the twins who were/are team employees. Keep in mind that the CBA specifically calls out "on ice" training activities with coaching and pre-arranged appointments with strength and conditioning coaches. However, the 2020 amendment states that clubs strength and conditioning coaches are permitted to post office hours and provide guidance if the player shows up to team facilities on their own initiative. They can not schedule advanced appointments or special hours. It also doesn't seem to cover dry land training and as we know Linden tried to get Virtanen into shape one summer...that was OK (Didn't work and of course what Virtanen really needed was intelligence).

ATTACHMENT L
15.11 No Conditioning Camp. Other than the Conditioning Camp described in Section 15.10 above, a Club is prohibited from organizing or holding any mandatory or voluntary camp in the off-season for any Players.

(a) Permissible Off-Season Activities. Clubs are permitted to keep their arena/training/practice facilities open -- both for on-ice and off-ice (dry land and weight room) training -- and to allow the Club’s Players to use those facilities at their own discretion on a voluntary, Player-initiated basis only.

Clubs and/or Club Strength and Conditioning Coach(es) are permitted to post regular hours when they will be at the arena/training/practice facility, and to provide services to Players while at the facility, so long as the Player is coming to the facility on his own initiative. However, Players and Club Strength and Conditioning Coaches are not permitted to schedule advance appointments or “special hours” for Players to workout at the Club’s arena/training/practice facility.

“Player-only” sessions on the ice, including “Captain’s Skates” and group Player skates are also permissible.
Clubs are permitted to allow Players from other teams to use their arena/training/practice facility(ies), and may provide skate sharpening and other equipment-related services to such Players at their discretion. No Club is required to open its arena/training/practice facility(ies) to non-Club members.

(b) Prohibited Off-Season Activities. Clubs are not permitted to have Club Coaching or Hockey Operations personnel (e.g., coaches, skating instructors, other Club employees, contracted service providers, etc.) participate in any on-ice sessions with Players.

Clubs are not permitted to request or encourage Players to come to the Club’s home city during the off-season to utilize the Club’s arena/training/practice facility(ies) and/or to train with Club Coaching or Hockey Operations personnel.

Clubs are not permitted to pay for Players’ travel costs, per diems or housing for Players who choose to stay in or come to the Club’s home city during the off-season to utilize the Club’s arena/training/practice facility(ies) and/or to train with Club Coaching or Hockey Operations personnel. In all instances, if Players choose to stay in or return to the Club’s home city to train over the summer, it must be on a Player-initiated basis only, and all associated costs must be borne by the Player.
Clubs are not permitted to use electronic or computerized programs to track or monitor a Player’s off- season activity or conditioning.

Clubs are not permitted to facilitate or pay for Players to receive training/conditioning services during the off-season from: (i) Club Strength and Conditioning Coaches who may own separate businesses and provide off-site/off-season services (even where Players may want to utilize such services during the off-season); or (ii) third-party services providers that may provide training and conditioning services to Players inside or outside of the Club’s home city (e.g., Gary Roberts, Adam Oates, etc.)

(c) Monitoring and Enforcement. The NHL and the NHLPA agree to establish effective monitoring and enforcement mechanisms to ensure each Club’s compliance with the requirements in this Section 15.11, so as to ensure a level playing surface as among all Clubs in the League and the competitive integrity of NHL competition, among other things. These provisions will therefore be monitored (including by unannounced “spot checks” during the course of the off-season) and strictly enforced. Violations of these provisions will lead to significant penalties, including Club fines in an amount not less than $50,000 and individual fines in an amount not less than $10,000, as well as the potential forfeiture of Club Draft Picks, as determined to be appropriate by the Commissioner or his designee, in consultation with the Executive Director of the NHLPA.

Essentially a player can indeed get guidance through the summer provided nothing special is being arranged (hell I imagine a player can even zoom call a trainer provided it's during the established office hours). And they did try a modification last offseason that a player can request through the NHLPA to have an official on-ice session during the off-season with team coaches. Not sure that is still in effect for this offseason, but regardless guidance is available. Just make it through regular office hours and on players initiative. Also, during the season they can be giving exercises/drills to improve areas for the player to continue during the off-season.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

my suspicion is there is a reason why of all our players, the one guy who never regressed and always came back after the off-season better and with new tools has a dad who’s a hockey lifer that spent over twenty years working in player development for various pro and college teams before (i think) rededicating himself to training his boys. not everybody has access to that, not just a dad with that skillset working with you so closely but also a guy who’s been building contacts in the industry — skating and dedicated skill coaches, trainers, dieticians, etc — since the early 90s. a lot of it is quinn himself too, his hockey IQ, his drive, his executive function and attention to detail, as well as him being raised to problem solve his own game from a young age, but you also need access to the resources.

imagine if, say, the young raw edler had that kind of support.

also, am i confusing them with someone else or is puckmunchkin a she?

You're thinking of ThePuckMonster.

 

[VanJack]

Although it isn't likely to happen......in a 'perfect world', Raty and Sasson would come in and blow the doors off everyone, and becomes serious threats to win the battle for third and fourth line center positions.

Nothing against Blueger and/or Suter. But if the Canucks are going to improve, they need some young guys from Abbotsford to knock down the door and make it impossible for the coaching staff to send them back down. Pressure from below, is ultimately about the only way you're going to dramatically improve your bottom six forward group.

 

[F A N]

it's bizarre to fixate on the claim that Raty lacks the education to self-direct his own offseason training at this level, which is like maybe the only certainly correct thing they've even said.

Regardless of the plan the team has given him for the offseason, I don't really understand how you guys believe the team would be able to give him the education to take the place of high-end training staff and facilities. Like, that's a whole career.

And further to my above post, I don't see why it's "bizarre" to fixate on the claim that Raty lacks the education to do things properly. Obviously, "education" hasn't exactly been well defined here in our conversations so we are left to guess a bit. But education and knowledge of how to do things properly is something I expect the Canucks to impart on their prospects and players.

Let's assume that Raty can't and shouldn't self-direct his own off-season training. Let's assume that PM knows what he's talking about here. So it comes back down to the fact that the Canucks should have a world class hockey training staff with world class hockey fascilities/resources available that are better than 90-99% of what NHL players can get in the offseason. Usually money talks so the expectation shouldn't be that our staff and fascilities/resources available should be as good as sports franchises that generate hundreds of millions more in revenue/profits. But the expectation should absolutely be the Canucks' training staff and fascilities/resources available are better than the local trainers most NHL players train with over the summer. Of course there's also the possibility that what PM thinks athletes should do is really just some unrealistic idea given the resources available.

So with that in mind, there's no reason why Raty can't be "educated" on what he really should be doing. There's no reason why a training and nutritional plan can't be designed for Raty to follow over the summer. If working with a qualified trainer is critical, there's no reason why Raty can't be educated about what working with world-class hockey training staff looks like and what he should be looking for in a trainer. Like this is the type of education that the Canucks can and should impart if it's important to Raty training properly over the summer. Things like you should look for a trainer that does A, B, and C but at least does X, Y, and Z and you should work out in a facility that has A, B, C, equipment or at least X, Y, Z equipment. If Raty isn't getting that, he should be contacting people like his agent to hook him up. Canucks should have some contacts themselves. Finland is not an obscure NHL player producing country. The Canucks have some distinguished alumni from Finland themselves.

Raty isn't some poor clueless teenager from some small town who has never received elite level hockey training in his life. This is a player (with a hockey playing father and older brother who made his NHL debut last season) who has played 15 games in the NHL over two seasons.

 

[Quinton Byfield]

And further to my above post, I don't see why it's "bizarre" to fixate on the claim that Raty lacks the education to do things properly. Obviously, "education" hasn't exactly been well defined here in our conversations so we are left to guess a bit. But education and knowledge of how to do things properly is something I expect the Canucks to impart on their prospects and players.

Let's assume that Raty can't and shouldn't self-direct his own off-season training. Let's assume that PM knows what he's talking about here. So it comes back down to the fact that the Canucks should have a world class hockey training staff with world class hockey fascilities/resources available that are better than 90-99% of what NHL players can get in the offseason. Usually money talks so the expectation shouldn't be that our staff and fascilities/resources available should be as good as sports franchises that generate hundreds of millions more in revenue/profits. But the expectation should absolutely be the Canucks' training staff and fascilities/resources available are better than the local trainers most NHL players train with over the summer. Of course there's also the possibility that what PM thinks athletes should do is really just some unrealistic idea given the resources available.

So with that in mind, there's no reason why Raty can't be "educated" on what he really should be doing. There's no reason why a training and nutritional plan can't be designed for Raty to follow over the summer. If working with a qualified trainer is critical, there's no reason why Raty can't be educated about what working with world-class hockey training staff looks like and what he should be looking for in a trainer. Like this is the type of education that the Canucks can and should impart if it's important to Raty training properly over the summer. Things like you should look for a trainer that does A, B, and C but at least does X, Y, and Z and you should work out in a facility that has A, B, C, equipment or at least X, Y, Z equipment. If Raty isn't getting that, he should be contacting people like his agent to hook him up. Canucks should have some contacts themselves. Finland is not an obscure NHL player producing country. The Canucks have some distinguished alumni from Finland themselves.

Raty isn't some poor clueless teenager from some small town who has never received elite level hockey training in his life. This is a player (with a hockey playing father and older brother who made his NHL debut last season) who has played 15 games in the NHL over two seasons.

I think what PM is saying (or implying) makes no f***ing sense for all the reasons you stated. This is a world class sports organization, with resources and connections beyond compare. What is being stated is illogical for any athlete in any sport at this level, where investment results in a yield and teams want the best and greatest yield possible.

I think there's an agenda at play, wanting to paint some side as bad or incompetent. I suppose to a certain degree everyone has some kind of agenda. We just don't understand to what ends, to make Raty seem incompetent, or his agents, Finnish development program, Canucks development staff...honestly, I just don't get it.

I think we as a collective should stick closer to things that are fact, and less opine. There are things to like about Raty. He hasn't stagnated as a prospect yet, and seems to get better in each league he plays in until he graduates to the next one. He has a heady, 200-foot game. He's good at faceoffs. Prototypical center frame at 6'2, 190lb.

For him to slot into an eventual 3rd line shutdown C would be him filling an important role for the Canucks. If he could do that and flash a bit more higher end skill while doing that would be amazing for our depth in the future.

 

[Vector]

Yes the canucks were fined 50k for holding on-ice sessions with the twins who were/are team employees. Keep in mind that the CBA specifically calls out "on ice" training activities with coaching and pre-arranged appointments with strength and conditioning coaches. However, the 2020 amendment states that clubs strength and conditioning coaches are permitted to post office hours and provide guidance if the player shows up to team facilities on their own initiative. They can not schedule advanced appointments or special hours. It also doesn't seem to cover dry land training and as we know Linden tried to get Virtanen into shape one summer...that was OK (Didn't work and of course what Virtanen really needed was intelligence).



Essentially a player can indeed get guidance through the summer provided nothing special is being arranged (hell I imagine a player can even zoom call a trainer provided it's during the established office hours). And they did try a modification last offseason that a player can request through the NHLPA to have an official on-ice session during the off-season with team coaches. Not sure that is still in effect for this offseason, but regardless guidance is available. Just make it through regular office hours and on players initiative. Also, during the season they can be giving exercises/drills to improve areas for the player to continue during the off-season.

As of last off-season, although it was supposed to only be one season it seems was extended, players are allowed to request, through the NHLPA, a team trainer/coach be present for on-ice activities. That's why Krog and Torenius were at yesterday's skate.

 

[tantalum]

As of last off-season, although it was supposed to only be one season it seems was extended, players are allowed to request, through the NHLPA, a team trainer/coach be present for on-ice activities. That's why Krog and Torenius were at yesterday's skate.

I figured it would have been extended. Makes little sense for it not to be. In the end, there is no teams must be completely hands off thing anymore. Plenty of ways for a team to give guidance to a player that cares about getting better.

 

[RobertKron]

And further to my above post, I don't see why it's "bizarre" to fixate on the claim that Raty lacks the education to do things properly. Obviously, "education" hasn't exactly been well defined here in our conversations so we are left to guess a bit. But education and knowledge of how to do things properly is something I expect the Canucks to impart on their prospects and players.

Let's assume that Raty can't and shouldn't self-direct his own off-season training. Let's assume that PM knows what he's talking about here. So it comes back down to the fact that the Canucks should have a world class hockey training staff with world class hockey fascilities/resources available that are better than 90-99% of what NHL players can get in the offseason. Usually money talks so the expectation shouldn't be that our staff and fascilities/resources available should be as good as sports franchises that generate hundreds of millions more in revenue/profits. But the expectation should absolutely be the Canucks' training staff and fascilities/resources available are better than the local trainers most NHL players train with over the summer. Of course there's also the possibility that what PM thinks athletes should do is really just some unrealistic idea given the resources available.

So with that in mind, there's no reason why Raty can't be "educated" on what he really should be doing. There's no reason why a training and nutritional plan can't be designed for Raty to follow over the summer. If working with a qualified trainer is critical, there's no reason why Raty can't be educated about what working with world-class hockey training staff looks like and what he should be looking for in a trainer. Like this is the type of education that the Canucks can and should impart if it's important to Raty training properly over the summer. Things like you should look for a trainer that does A, B, and C but at least does X, Y, and Z and you should work out in a facility that has A, B, C, equipment or at least X, Y, Z equipment. If Raty isn't getting that, he should be contacting people like his agent to hook him up. Canucks should have some contacts themselves. Finland is not an obscure NHL player producing country. The Canucks have some distinguished alumni from Finland themselves.

Raty isn't some poor clueless teenager from some small town who has never received elite level hockey training in his life. This is a player (with a hockey playing father and older brother who made his NHL debut last season) who has played 15 games in the NHL over two seasons.

Because the idea that Raty likely lacks the education to take over the role of the elite-level trainer or, more realistically, multiple high-end professionals that OP claims aren't involved in guiding his training is probably the only thing that OP has said that's near guaranteed to be true, and it's bizarre to think that the Canucks could train him to fill these roles over the course of a few months.

Like, just about everything else that OP has claimed is downright questionable at best, but for some reason you're keying in on the one thing that they've claimed that's basically a given to the point that it's irrelevant in the bigger picture.

 

[F A N]

Because the idea that Raty likely lacks the education to take over the role of the elite-level trainer or, more realistically, multiple high-end professionals that OP claims aren't involved in guiding his training is probably the only thing that OP has said that's near guaranteed to be true, and it's bizarre to think that the Canucks could train him to fill these roles over the course of a few months.

Like, just about everything else that OP has claimed is downright questionable at best, but for some reason you're keying in on the one thing that they've claimed that's basically a given to the point that it's irrelevant in the bigger picture.

It's odd that you're so fixated on this without adding anything of substance to the discussion. I think you're also adding your own spin to what PM said.

Again, if you have actually read and comprehended the discussions that has taken place, nobody is saying that Raty should be designing his own training program or guiding his own training. I expect the Canucks to have developed a somewhat tailored plan for Raty to work on over the summer or at least have an informative discussion as to what he should be doing over the summer. There is zero indication that the Canucks have not done this.

And if working with a trainer is crucial, the Canucks should work with Raty's agent to connect him to a good one or at least educate Raty on what to look for in a trainer. Meanwhile, Raty should know what working with a world class hockey training staff and working with world class hockey training fascilities and resources look like on the assumption that the Canucks have that. If Finland is the issue then you do what you can without violating the CBA to steer the player away from returning home to workout.

Furthermore if the focus is on his skating, the Canucks get 8-10 months a year observing Raty skate and working with him. Whatever the issue, Raty should not training like aimlessly as PM is suggesting. I also fail to see how the advanced sports science like testing his blood will be that big of a factor here but I admittedly know very little about this. My understanding is that the current approach besides improving leg strength is a lot of jump based training, foot speed drills, change of directions etc.

 

[arttk]

Raty should not training like aimlessly as PM is suggesting

I think that's the thing everyone is skeptical on.

Raty not being able to improve on his skating has always been the most likely outcome. If he could've made big improvements to skating he probably would've already. I think to attribute that to either a) he is too stupid (really horrible take) or b) org is incompetent (bring receipts if any one wants to make that claim) is just pointless. Since it is PM, I am not surprised because that is how he does things.

 

[ohnoeszz]

It's odd that you're so fixated on this without adding anything of substance to the discussion. I think you're also adding your own spin to what PM said.

Again, if you have actually read and comprehended the discussions that has taken place, nobody is saying that Raty should be designing his own training program or guiding his own training. I expect the Canucks to have developed a somewhat tailored plan for Raty to work on over the summer or at least have an informative discussion as to what he should be doing over the summer. There is zero indication that the Canucks have not done this.

And if working with a trainer is crucial, the Canucks should work with Raty's agent to connect him to a good one or at least educate Raty on what to look for in a trainer. Meanwhile, Raty should know what working with a world class hockey training staff and working with world class hockey training fascilities and resources look like on the assumption that the Canucks have that. If Finland is the issue then you do what you can without violating the CBA to steer the player away from returning home to workout.

Furthermore if the focus is on his skating, the Canucks get 8-10 months a year observing Raty skate and working with him. Whatever the issue, Raty should not training like aimlessly as PM is suggesting. I also fail to see how the advanced sports science like testing his blood will be that big of a factor here but I admittedly know very little about this. My understanding is that the current approach besides improving leg strength is a lot of jump based training, foot speed drills, change of directions etc.

PM is not a source for this. Until PM wants to provide some sort of proof of what he said, it should be treated as hearsay by us rather than spending pages delineating the possibilities of how Raty's training is possibly inadequate compared to his peers. There is no outside evidence of this.

It falsely frames the discussion of Raty around whether or not PMs claims have merit.

If you actually read and comprehend the discussions that has taken place it is apparent that the simplest explanation to the conundrum of how could Raty be so dense as to not train at the level of the team he spends all his time with... is that PM's alleged statements are wrong.

No one wants to address that because PM is not the one here peddling this information and you shouldn't be running with someone else's hearsay.

 

[F A N]

PM is not a source for this. Until PM wants to provide some sort of proof of what he said, it should be treated as hearsay by us rather than spending pages delineating the possibilities of how Raty's training is possibly inadequate compared to his peers. There is no outside evidence of this.

It falsely frames the discussion of Raty around whether or not PMs claims have merit.

If you actually read and comprehend the discussions that has taken place it is apparent that the simplest explanation to the conundrum of how could Raty be so dense as to not train at the level of the team he spends all his time with... is that PM's alleged statements are wrong.

No one wants to address that because PM is not the one here peddling this information and you shouldn't be running with someone else's hearsay.

Well what PM said is hearsay: he heard it from people who had apparently observed Raty skating and then PM added his own analysis and spiel.

I get what you're saying but whether what PM said has merit or not I do think it's a topic for discussion. Simply dismissing PM's statements as BS is fine too. If you think PM is wrong and it's all BS there's no need to engage in the discussions.

Player development (or lack thereof) has a long standing problem for the Canucks. The Canucks the past two drafts have also selected forwards whose main weakness might be skating. Especially with training camp about to open, how a prospect like Raty is progressing is a fine topic for discussion. We have a long-time poster claiming he has inside information on how Raty's skating is progressing and an explanation of why Raty's offseason training sucks, so I don't see how it's not something to discuss.

As for what I should or should not do here. You're not a mod. I'm free to spend my time posting and you're free to spend your time lurking.

 

[VanJack]

Raty and Lekkerimaki are my guys to watch in Penticton. Both are being relied on heavily by the Canuck braintrust to eventually beat down the door to the NHL.

 

[Coffee]

Raty and Lekkerimaki are my guys to watch in Penticton. Both are being relied on heavily by the Canuck braintrust to eventually beat down the door to the NHL.

How’d he look like at practice ?

 

[im gangster]

How’d he look like at practice ?

Forget that.

What's your go to coffee order? Or if you're not a purchaser of it via a lineup and a barista, how do you make it for yourself when you want to live it up a little?

 

[Lindgren]

IMac has an article on Raty's off-season, with some interesting comments from the player, who sounds pretty optimistic about improvements he made in his skating:

“I think we made some huge strides in the skating department,” he said. “It feels weird when you get that light-bulb moment, you think: How haven't I been able to do this before? But, you know, better late than never.”

What changed?

“There's a lot of things,” he explained. “A lot of body lean. My crossovers were horrible. I switched something in my blades. The specs are different in Finland, but (my blades) are sharper for the turns. In Europe, they have a lot of glide in their blades (for bigger ice surfaces). So I switched that a little bit, and it gave me more confidence to have the body lean required for those crossovers. If you look at those good players, they get the speed from crossovers and then they get the puck. If I can get my speed faster and kind of get through some guys, I think that's going to be the difference.”

Full article:
Aatu Raty's 'huge strides' reigniting hype around Canucks' former top prospect

 

[TruGr1t]

Although it isn't likely to happen......in a 'perfect world', Raty and Sasson would come in and blow the doors off everyone, and becomes serious threats to win the battle for third and fourth line center positions.

Nothing against Blueger and/or Suter. But if the Canucks are going to improve, they need some young guys from Abbotsford to knock down the door and make it impossible for the coaching staff to send them back down. Pressure from below, is ultimately about the only way you're going to dramatically improve your bottom six forward group.

I think there's about zero chance Tocchet replaces Suter/Blueger with a rookie. They probably have a better chance on the wing, but there's not much room even then. If it were to happen, I suppose Suter could move back to wing, but there is absolutely no chance Blueger isn't playing C on the Canucks this year. He was the team's top penalty killer, and is basically locked in the line-up.

 

[arttk]

IMac has an article on Raty's off-season, with some interesting comments from the player, who sounds pretty optimistic about improvements he made in his skating:

Full article:
Aatu Raty's 'huge strides' reigniting hype around Canucks' former top prospect

Looks like his skating improved?

 

[sting101]

Raty will replace Suter if not this year by next.

Skating looked noticeably better

 

[Peen]

We’ll find out in preseason. I don’t think management is scared to waive PDG, Aman considering their ceiling is known and their minors salary.

Or sprong if he doesn’t show a change in defensive intensity during camp & preseason.

 

[ohnoeszz]

Looks like his skating improved?

Also worth noting that our AGM seems to be raving about his toolset and work ethic.

He seems in line for an A this year as he mentions taking on a leadership role.

 

[RobertKron]

Only watched like 1/3 of the game, but Raty did seem to be moving somewhat better. I will say that there's a danger in putting too much weight on these games, as him being a smart player who plays a pro-type game can be enough to make it look like he's getting around well due to the level of play, but it's at least promising.

For guys like Raty, Bains, Lekkerimaki, etc. these tournaments are kind of a trap as impressions really only matter in one direction for that type of talent; but still it's something, and hopefully he continues getting around the rink better in the preseason as that'd be a huge development for him.

 

[bobbyb2009]

To me, this was an interview that showed him as a very self aware, committed, and appreciative person. He gets where he is at and is willing to put the work in to grow his game, and he knows he has to. Pretty darn impressive if you ask me. For this, I have just become a fan of his and will watch more of him and his progress. He just seems likeable and someone who would be a good teammate.

I didnt have much hope for him, but I am pulling for him now.

Also, I have been intrigued by Sasson, and I still think he has a shot at making it as a bottom six guy. I am just not sure there will ever be room for both of them.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I find the discussion of the technical aspects of skating and what he did to improve his skating really fascinating. I always thought that by this stage the technical deficiencies would be fixed but it sounds much more complex than I’d thought. His statement that the penny finally dropped is an interesting one as well.