Prospect Info: #8OA, Marco Kasper

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
yeah it's not so much Yzerman himself that's annoying with that(he probably doesn't even value size an above average amount as far as forwards go)

it's just that the fans buy into it like a hundred times more with him than they ever did with someone like Babcock
I guess? I just remember all of the tiresome discussions with people on various boards that the Wings are small and soft and a very vocal group of fans would have preferred the Bruise Brother days of the 80s Wings bullying teams but not actually winning anything. The type of guys that attribute the '08 win solely on Drake, Downey, and DMac.

This was mostly in the gap between the '02 and '08 Cups.
 
Not only are there body types, there's also all the other genetics at play. Genetics that affect how easy it is to add weight, how that weight is added, and, most importantly when you're a professional hockey player, how that weight affects your game. Some guys get big and then thrive, but some guys get big and then suck.

I don't know what it is around here with this effort to show that there's nothing stopping tiny guys from not being tiny and then easily becoming NHLers, but the reality is that guys wash out of pro hockey and fail to make the NHL due to their small size all the damn time. Something is stopping those guys from getting to the right size, and it's not that they are all lazy.
There is very little evidence that there are three.main body types. Genetics absolutely play a role in ability to gain muscle, fat distribution , etc but this is a huge spectrum and each person is unique, the idea of 3 unique somatotypes is outdated and only seen in some sports literature and even there its validity is debated. There’s plenty of evidence surrounding ease of ability to add muscle, etc, as you say, but once again there is no evidence that a caloric surplus does not work. If you eat surplus calories, you will gain weight. There is no way to deny this.

Small guys fizzle out because they’re short. Not usually because they can’t gain weight. If they can’t gain weight, that is on them for being lazy, yes.
 
Last edited:
Danny DeKeyser was a good example of a guy that had a "body type" and had a hard time gaining weight.

Could of used 20lbs his whole career.


What even happened to this thread?

It wasnt really talked about while he was actually playing here so many might not know about it... but Dekeyser actually had issues maintaining weight. and He at one point was on a diet of 10,000 calories per day during the season.

So this BS saying just anyone can gain weight is just that, BS. Obviously everyone can, but your body type has a big effect on it. Especially with the strain of a hockey season going at the same time. These guys arent just sitting at home, going to the gym and eating, theyre playing elite level hockey
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ed Ned and Leddy
It wasnt really talked about while he was actually playing here so many might not know about it... but Dekeyser actually had issues maintaining weight. and He at one point was on a diet of 10,000 calories per day during the season.

So this BS saying just anyone can gain weight is just that, BS. Obviously everyone can, but your body type has a big effect on it. Especially with the strain of a hockey season going at the same time. These guys arent just sitting at home, going to the gym and eating, theyre playing elite level hockey
Physiologically not possible. There isn’t much to debate here…this is basics of how the human body works. There is no way Dekeyser was eating 10K calories a day and not gaining weight unless he was somehow burning more than 10K calories a day. Running a full marathon burns about 2.5K calories for a 160lb person for some context.
 
Physiologically not possible. There isn’t much to debate here…this is basics of how the human body works. There is no way Dekeyser was eating 10K calories a day and not gaining weight unless he was somehow burning more than 10K calories a day. Running a full marathon burns about 2.5K calories for a 160lb person for some context.

You’re smart enough to be able to wrap your head around caloric deficits and surpluses, but can’t seem to wrap your head around BMR. Different people have different BMR’s. Some people have a metabolism that naturally run high and ramps up significantly with activity levels. Some people have a metabolism that is a bit laggy.

Then you get into the concept of efficient weight for athletic performance. Small players don’t stick in the league because of their height, not their weight? Kind of related there. Weight and muscle mass is necessary for effectiveness in a physical sport like hockey. Gaining position, not being moved off your spot, separating opponents from the puck, etc. are all impacted by physical strength. Weight and mass influence this, as well as length for leverage. However, mass reaches a point where it also limits agility, explosiveness, flexibility, and coordination.

How many NHLers do you see at 5’10 and comfortably at 210+? Not many. Because it’s not feasible to add that weight and maintain athletic efficiency. When people say there are body types, it’s that certain players can’t efficiently carry themselves at a given weight. Some are at their best at 5’9 160 and some are at their best at 5’9 195. No amount of counting calories can or will change that because of the genetics dynamic.
 
You’re smart enough to be able to wrap your head around caloric deficits and surpluses, but can’t seem to wrap your head around BMR. Different people have different BMR’s. Some people have a metabolism that naturally run high and ramps up significantly with activity levels. Some people have a metabolism that is a bit laggy.

Then you get into the concept of efficient weight for athletic performance. Small players don’t stick in the league because of their height, not their weight? Kind of related there. Weight and muscle mass is necessary for effectiveness in a physical sport like hockey. Gaining position, not being moved off your spot, separating opponents from the puck, etc. are all impacted by physical strength. Weight and mass influence this, as well as length for leverage. However, mass reaches a point where it also limits agility, explosiveness, flexibility, and coordination.

How many NHLers do you see at 5’10 and comfortably at 210+? Not many. Because it’s not feasible to add that weight and maintain athletic efficiency. When people say there are body types, it’s that certain players can’t efficiently carry themselves at a given weight. Some are at their best at 5’9 160 and some are at their best at 5’9 195. No amount of counting calories can or will change that because of the genetics dynamic.
Yes, BMR varies but not by a huge amount outside of disorders, etc. I’m a practicing physician and I went to school for a very long time to learn this stuff. There are lots of misconceptions around weight and body types. 210 at 5’10” is very overweight, so the vast majority of that mass needs to be muscle to have athletic efficiency, as you say. Athletes who are 210 with 12% body fat will not fail regardless of their “body type”.

I’m not trying to deny that genetic variance with this stuff exists. I’m just saying that all the genetics do is make it easier or harder to achieve certain goals, but they do not prevent someone from achieving a goal. Anybody, and I do mean anybody, can become shredded and strong with the right diet and exercise regimen. And so success at the NHL level for a 5’10” dude really is just about ability to focus and maintain that drive to gain muscle and strength.

By the way, there’s no reason a person who is 5’10” would genetically have a harder time gaining muscle than a guy who’s 6’3”. If this was the limiting factor as you all say, we should see plenty of 6ft+ guys with the wrong “body type” fizzle out because they’re too weak, because their body types prevent them from being able maintain the necessary strength. But that doesnt happen, because it’s much more about a combination of height and weight, and really anyone can get to the requisite weight. a 5’10” guy like Crosby who is extremely strong will succeed, while a guy like hudler who never gained much strength at all will not. A guy like mantha who isn’t that strong despite his height will succeed because his height alone gives him enough leverage to manage well enough physically.
 
Last edited:
Obviously you are being letcured by some type of athletic trainer that can't put himself into another skinny person situation. Literally called someone who's skinny lazy... lol.

Fat guy who works out and got muscular syndrome.

I'm skinny, I had to gain weight for hockey, if I did eat get more, I'll gain weight( not a ton) but i'll also go to the bathroom way more, my metabolism is extremely high, and i'll even get sick trying to force food down. If I don't maintain this crazy diet I go right down to a 150-140lbs weight. I'm 5'9. I'm a 4th generation farmer, all my family is rather smaller/skinny.

This argument is dumb, it's the reverse of fat people can be small and ignores all nuances. Not even close to black & white.
 
Obviously you are being letcured by some type of athletic trainer that can't put himself into another skinny person situation. Literally called someone who's skinny lazy... lol.

Fat guy who works out and got muscular syndrome.

I'm skinny, I had to gain weight for hockey, if I did eat get more, I'll gain weight( not a ton) but i'll also go to the bathroom way more, my metabolism is extremely high, and i'll even get sick trying to force food down. If I don't maintain this crazy diet I go right down to a 150-140lbs weight. I'm 5'9. I'm a 4th generation farmer, all my family is rather smaller/skinny.

This argument is dumb, it's the reverse of fat people can be small and ignores all nuances. Not even close to black & white.
I’m sorry you went through those things. For the record I’ve been very skinny my whole life so it really has nothing to do with that.

This conversation is clearly going nowhere and this board isn’t a place to discuss the science anyway. Best to get back on topic.

Kasper will be our next Zetterberg.
 
Obviously you are being letcured by some type of athletic trainer that can't put himself into another skinny person situation. Literally called someone who's skinny lazy... lol.

Fat guy who works out and got muscular syndrome.

I'm skinny, I had to gain weight for hockey, if I did eat get more, I'll gain weight( not a ton) but i'll also go to the bathroom way more, my metabolism is extremely high, and i'll even get sick trying to force food down. If I don't maintain this crazy diet I go right down to a 150-140lbs weight. I'm 5'9. I'm a 4th generation farmer, all my family is rather smaller/skinny.

This argument is dumb, it's the reverse of fat people can be small and ignores all nuances. Not even close to black & white.

What's that got to do with Kasper? He's 6'1" 192lbs how is that skinny?
 
I've seen comparaisons to Kempe, Couturier, Marchand, Cirelli, Bennett, is this accurate? 200 foot center with snarl, high compete level and capable of 50-60 points, maybe more if he reaches his full potential?
 
If you ask this board... He's a walking HOF'er already...
There is a slight difference between considering someone a HOFer and not wanting to trade him for a middling top6 forward 10 years older than him. Or in a package also including Edvinsson and multiple 1sts.

Those are trades that are very rarely won.
 
Physiologically not possible. There isn’t much to debate here…this is basics of how the human body works. There is no way Dekeyser was eating 10K calories a day and not gaining weight unless he was somehow burning more than 10K calories a day. Running a full marathon burns about 2.5K calories for a 160lb person for some context.

Take it up with the red wings nutritionist who openly talks about it in a couple of interviews. I have a degree that involved a lot of this stuff, calories in vs calories out is an extremely basic way of looking at things.

Youre a little out of your depth if without even knowing individuals you just want to say calories in vs valories out is how weght gain works. Have you ever heard of a thyroid?
 
Take it up with the red wings nutritionist who openly talks about it in a couple of interviews. I have a degree that involved a lot of this stuff, calories in vs calories out is an extremely basic way of looking at things.

Youre a little out of your depth if without even knowing individuals you just want to say calories in vs valories out is how weght gain works. Have you ever heard of a thyroid?
I think the calories in and out + genetics thing is a good 30 years old now in the metabolism field. Nowadays I’m seeing microbiome + perinatal nutrition considered dominant over genetics, exercise, and nutrition. For example: “We have shown that a lifetime of HF (high fat) nutrition up to and including pregnancy and lactation resulted in an obese phenotype in offspring irrespective of postnatal nutrition.” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669979/)
 
I think the calories in and out + genetics thing is a good 30 years old now in the metabolism field. Nowadays I’m seeing microbiome + perinatal nutrition considered dominant over genetics, exercise, and nutrition. For example: “We have shown that a lifetime of HF (high fat) nutrition up to and including pregnancy and lactation resulted in an obese phenotype in offspring irrespective of postnatal nutrition.” (Maternal nutritional history predicts obesity in adult offspring independent of postnatal diet)
This is a study in rats, dude. I think we’re getting way out here. And yes I understand that thyroid function plays a role in nutrition. I think we’re not going to get anywhere with this conversation - best to leave it alone.
 
Yes, BMR varies but not by a huge amount outside of disorders, etc. I’m a practicing physician and I went to school for a very long time to learn this stuff. There are lots of misconceptions around weight and body types. 210 at 5’10” is very overweight, so the vast majority of that mass needs to be muscle to have athletic efficiency, as you say. Athletes who are 210 with 12% body fat will not fail regardless of their “body type”.

I’m not trying to deny that genetic variance with this stuff exists. I’m just saying that all the genetics do is make it easier or harder to achieve certain goals, but they do not prevent someone from achieving a goal. Anybody, and I do mean anybody, can become shredded and strong with the right diet and exercise regimen. And so success at the NHL level for a 5’10” dude really is just about ability to focus and maintain that drive to gain muscle and strength.

By the way, there’s no reason a person who is 5’10” would genetically have a harder time gaining muscle than a guy who’s 6’3”. If this was the limiting factor as you all say, we should see plenty of 6ft+ guys with the wrong “body type” fizzle out because they’re too weak, because their body types prevent them from being able maintain the necessary strength. But that doesnt happen, because it’s much more about a combination of height and weight, and really anyone can get to the requisite weight. a 5’10” guy like Crosby who is extremely strong will succeed, while a guy like hudler who never gained much strength at all will not. A guy like mantha who isn’t that strong despite his height will succeed because his height alone gives him enough leverage to manage well enough physically.
That is just not accurate. For a practicing physician who went to school for a long time, you are missing a lot of information here. Or you don't keep up with medical journals like practicing physicians should be doing. Speaking of height and weakness, look at Kevin Durant, dude is an ectomorph and there is no way he can gain weight, his body is just not built to be that way. He could be considered an anomaly in a sense because there is no way he has any real strength to speak of, but he has enough to do what his daily activity demands. No one would be able to prove to me that Durant could end up looking like Lebron (complete mesomorph) at any point in his life. It would be impossible to maintain if he was even able to do so. (god I hate basketball and i just made that reference, shoot me now)

Hormones matter and each body type has a difference in their hormone sensitivity. Cortisol levels matter a lot. I could have the same exact diet as you, same frame, same workout intensity and days of the week of working out, same job, but if I am more stressed than you because of other factors, then the possibility of not maintaining the same efficiencies that you are achieving becomes higher. Not to mention sleep is a major factor and a few others including insulin.

-This study literally studies the different somatotypes of athletes for a particular action
-Most athletes in the study, and you can argue elite athletes in general, have the endomorphic mesomorph body type (more meso than anything in leagues like NHL/NBA/NFL)
-This is the conclusion of the study if you don't want to read it like everyone should:

Conclusion​

Anatomic structure of the body, which is suitable for the sports branch, has an increasing effect on performance.

I mean, if you really are a practicing physician, I commend you for being able to get through the schooling, residency, etc to get where you are, so respect on that. But if you purely believe that calories in vs. calories out is the formula to losing weight and not care about anything else, such as the different somatotypes of the human body, hormones (stress in particular), and overall REM sleep, then I really hope you are not telling or professing this information to your patients. That is just being ignorant, not understanding others, and not opening your mind to the fact that there may be knowledge and evidence that contradicts your opinions (aka close-minded). You may be someone that doesn't have overwhelming stress in your life, you work out, eat right and your physiology is great, but that is just not the case in all people.

Quick example, my brother is a Ectomorph trying to be a Endomorph. Ecto's can't gain weight efficiently because their metabolism is amazing. I am an Endomorph with Mesomorph tendencies. When my brother and I went to a Hibachi grill, he will scrape all of the food into his mouth. I will eat the protein and some rice, and he takes the rest of my food. He lifts weights, no real stress to speak of in his life, and he barely gains an ounce, and this is after eating roughly 4k calories. If that were me, I am gaining a pound and have to work harder to lose that pound than he would ever have to. It's human physiology. It is the exact same as there are some bodybuilders that have a perfect V-shape and other body builders that are just wide shoulders, thick waste.

Other video's to tickle people's fancies:



 
This is a study in rats, dude. I think we’re getting way out here. And yes I understand that thyroid function plays a role in nutrition. I think we’re not going to get anywhere with this conversation - best to leave it alone.
Lol, agreed. Only thing I'd spit-ball back towards you is that most people insisting that there aren't body types or whatever stick to a study from 1940 where the original idea was also centered around personality traits.

The trainers I worked with in college definitely had me on a different workout regime/diet than others based on how my body reacted to food and how it absorbed/metabolized it, the works outs needed to gain muscle vs the ones to avoid. I wasn't allowed to have sugar... you'll figure out fast you are a walking crack-head for sugar! Other guys could do what they wanted it seemed. They never specifically called me an endomorph or whatever morph though... In long- idk if I'm a "type" but they definitely treated me special compared to others. I'm gonna leave it alone now but it's not as black and white as you keep suggesting.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: RedHawkDown
Lol, agreed. Only thing I'd spit-ball back towards you is that most people insisting that there aren't body types or whatever stick to a study from 1940 where the original idea was also centered around personality traits.

The trainers I worked with in college definitely had me on a different workout regime/diet than others based on how my body reacted to food and how it absorbed/metabolized it, the works outs needed to gain muscle vs the ones to avoid. They never specifically called me an endomorph or whatever morph though... In long- idk if I'm a "type" but they definitely treated me special compared to others.
TLDR: body types are a thing

Differences:
Ectomorph - Can eat anything without really having any issues of carrying fat at all. Difficult to gain weight and muscle regardless of how hard you work. Extremely easy to lose weight.
Mesomorph - The best body type bar none. You can eat what you want and as long as you workout in any fashion (basketball game or lift weights or just active lifestyle in general) you will always be considered "fit". Can gain muscle with ease and usually able to get the v-shape and cut look a lot easier
Endomorph - Gain weight extremely easy (good and bad, mostly bad). Can gain muscle extremely easily compared to others, but you need to keep working out consistently every day or you lose muscle mass quicker and gain fat from the loss of calories burned of less muscle. Your diet needs to be extremely strict with no cheat meals unless you want to set yourself back from the week. Stress levels are extremely important to keep down or it doesn't really matter what you do unless you just stop eating and go full fasting for a few days at a time (tried that).

I've said it earlier in this thread. I am an endomorph. I was a big guy, so I decided one day that I hit rock bottom and need a change. I wanted to look somewhat like Hugh Jackman or Rich Froning Jr. (more Rich now, but I digress). I ate what Hugh said he at to get the wolverine body: salad and chicken, non-stop. I worked out 3 times a day (Insanity workout program twice a day, and P90x for the other one). I did this to join the military. I was doing great in the workouts, continuously improved my stamina and increased weights all the time. For 2 months straight I did this (I was pretty obese) and I lost a grand total of 4 pounds.

Had a diet log to guarantee everything in my mouth was clean. Workout log to see the improvements. It didn't matter what I was doing because my cortisol levels were through the roof. I got tested for my thyroid function, testosterone, estrogen, insulin to see if there was something holding me back. All of them were in perfectly normal range and I wasn't even pre-diabetic. I took the recommended rest days for each program I was doing (insanity was 1 rest day a week and then after 4 weeks you take a week of "lower intensity" which really wasn't lower, and followed p90x to a "T"). I even made sure to get 15k steps in a day that didn't include my workouts!

Once I put myself in less-stress scenarios (family, job, school, etc.) it started coming off a lot quicker and I did less workouts (2 a days instead of 3). I still gain weight easy if I have a random cheat meal or eat bad food. My brother still can't gain weight because his metabolism and body type just won't allow it.

Edit: Also, I was 19 years old, so age wasn't an issue. I ended up not joining the military after a technicality (stupidly said I used an inhaler before but got 4 different doctors to sign a letter and make me do the asthma test to prove I didn't have it, but they still denied me from joining. Said I used an inhaler and that means I got asthma. MIND YOU I used the inhaler once when I was 5, literally once lol). I went to college in a different state from my family (main stresser, messy divorced parents/custody problems blah blah) and talked to them maybe once every couple of weeks and it all started working for me, so much less stress lmao.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: wingerdinger
ANYWHO

so that marco kaspar guy is pretty snazzzzy eh? His story is pretty interesting on how he went to a school that was a different language than what he grew up with and still learned that language that quickly? Ah to be young again!
 
I should clarify that my main point wasn’t that body types and variances don’t exist because they obviously do. It’s easier for some and harder for others and everyone is different. My point was just that everyone can still gain weight and muscle. The absolute peak of each persons potential may also be different, but it isn’t really true that some people are biologically programmed to be skinny no matter what. Everything you all are saying about cortisol, thyroid hormone, testosterone levels, and everything else is certainly relevant but it still doesn’t mean a person with genetic disadvantages is completely unable to gain muscle. That’s all. I think we agree for the most part, lol.

And yes this conversation is now circular so let’s stick to Kasper.
 
This is a study in rats, dude. I think we’re getting way out here. And yes I understand that thyroid function plays a role in nutrition. I think we’re not going to get anywhere with this conversation - best to leave it alone.
Just do a bit of reading man. Rats were used for an isogenic study group and to control diet, but it shows more causation than the prompting study done in humans (Maternal size in pregnancy and body composition in children). There’s more work done in humans that prompts similar conclusions (Body weight at developmental age in siblings born to mothers before and after surgically induced weight loss - PubMed), and recent molecular work that shows this too (Increasing breast milk betaine modulates Akkermansia abundance in mammalian neonates and improves long-term metabolic health) (Effects of Maternal Obesity on Fetal Programming: Molecular Approaches). Also because clinicians love NEJM, here’s a review (Effect of In Utero and Early-Life Conditions on Adult Health and Disease).

Now if we can get back to Kasper, who does everyone see as the ideal wingers for him (either in the pipeline or 2023 draft targets)?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad