Post-Game Talk: #8 - 10/21/18 | flames @ RANGERS | 7:00 - MSG

[Shesterkybomb]

watched the entire game for change. it was good then went bad in a hurry. then it was just bad

this team just isnt talented enough. we outshot them sure, but out chance them ? no.

we really don't have a true 1st line. we dont have a true 1st pair dman.

calgary has loads of talent. we just dont.

this team tries hard but thats not enough. were now that team that the opponent plays their backup against.

my how weve fallen. its gonna be a long year.

better times ahead if we can draft a big time difference maker player or 2.

How would you feel about our 1st line if Panarin was added to kreider and Zibanajad, and our forward depth with Anderson and Kravtsov and our D if Hajek jumps in next year with DeAngelo? I dont think we are that far off really, a couple players could change the outlook and that's the whole point of this rebuild.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

watched the entire game for change. it was good then went bad in a hurry. then it was just bad

this team just isnt talented enough. we outshot them sure, but out chance them ? no.

we really don't have a true 1st line. we dont have a true 1st pair dman.

calgary has loads of talent. we just dont.

this team tries hard but thats not enough. were now that team that the opponent plays their backup against.

my how weve fallen. its gonna be a long year.

better times ahead if we can draft a big time difference maker player or 2.

We heavily out chanced them.

The lack of finishers on this team is a thing but let’s not get it twisted, their goalie straight up won them this game.

 

[haveandare]

Not sure what people expected. It's going to be a long year with more losses than wins. Luckily for us it's also a great year to be bad in terms of the draft.

I have some issues with the way things have been run - DeAngelo should be in a lot more, Buch should be on the PP point consistently, PK needs work. But overall this is about what I expected. The effort seems to be there more often than not.

 

[Edge]

These games have been the evidence we need that the team was on the precipice last season, and keeping Nash, McDonagh, and Grabner around would not have saved this team from collapse.

It's not a purely effort or coaching thing, it was that the bill had truly come due and the team didn't have the aggregate talent any more.

I remain steadfast in my belief that the time had come.

At best, keeping those guys would've kept us in the dreaded middle --- quite possibly near the bottom of that zone.

I think if McD was still in 2014 form, you might be able to at least make the argument that we have core pieces in place. Maybe.

But that wasn't the case and to me this team looked like it needed a reset.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The guy actually pulled up. All Skjei did was give up a breakaway. Cmon!

Horror! Pogroms! Not a breakaway late in a game that was already over! By the Gods, string this fellow up, tar and feather him. may his ancestors hear his cries of agony for all time. Only the harshest of penalties could be warranted after such a devastating error

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

It sucks more than anything that there isn't anything else to get into while the Rangers are doing their rebuild.

Dark times in NY sports.

At least the Giants, Jets, and Knicks have Barkley, Darnold, and Porzingis. I'll feel much better if the Rangers can get a player of that ilk for all their losing.

You're putting darnold and Porzingis in that category even though Kravtsov, chytil, shesty and Lias are all every bit as promising in their own ways.

You are presenting a lot of poor, potentially dishonest arguments, continually offering points that are dishonest by omission.

Another example is how badly you trash Skjei while NEVER acknowledging that he is put in a position that is above his head, experience and pay grade. With so much inexperience throughout the lineup and with a new coach/system/etc. it makes a TON of sense for him to be struggling. But no mention of this. Reading your posts, you'd think he was in a perfect situation to succeed and was just flat out failing.

You talk about being bottom 3 with this management team as if they easily could've built a winner for this year and botched it. This is pretty dishonest by omission because it's EXTREMELY reasonable to instead acknowledge that the bill simply came due for a decade of sustained high level play and 4 years worth of legitimate Stanley cup contention.

It also ignores how much potential we traded away for our shots at the cup. 3 1st round talents would probably look awwwfully nice on this team right now. It was reasonable to trade away that potential to try for the cup. So why pretend like some egregiously incompetent moves led us to this?

I'm extremely displeased with the botched Mcilrath pick and the absolute barren wasteland that has been our drafts outside of the 1st round in recent years. There are arguments to be had that this isn't the right management team. Simply stopping at "Well we're a bottom 3 team right now" is an argument so bad that it's about to the level of quality that you think our management is at.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

We’ll see where you stand when 2-3 turns into 4-6 and even 10.

LOL. Of all the hot takes. You just mined the Earth's mantle for this one. We're legitimately looking at the potential for a 10 year rebuild folks. Wow. Forget all of the talking about how frustrating it is to see half the board panic and post irrational hot takes. This stuff is gold

 

[chosen]

Why not?

40 forwards hit 60 points in 15-16.

39 forwards hit 60 points in 16-17.

68 forwards hit 60 points last year.

53 points would rank:

86th among forwards last year.

68th among forwards in 16-17.

62nd among forwards in 15-16.

That is first line production though obviously not elite production.

Interesting and meaningless stat.

You are comparing a career year to stats in a given year. Look up the career best for all your cited players and note where Kreider falls in your rankings.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

LOL. Of all the hot takes. You just mined the Earth's mantle for this one. We're legitimately looking at the potential for a 10 year rebuild folks. Wow. Forget all of the talking about how frustrating it is to see half the board panic and post irrational hot takes. This stuff is gold

The only people who have the right to be upset about a rebuild are the ones who are the terminally ill, or over 70 years old.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The issue is, this roster is completely devoid of talent. Just look at how many scoring chances generated vs scoring chances capitalized on. It’s a perfect indication of skill level. So many chances and only 1 goal.

Why arent you acknowledging that it's early in the season and that this could be attributed more to having a lineup full of new, inexperienced players. Why the complete quantum leap to assuming wr have ZERO talent

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I'm willing to be happy with the effort and look forward to this lineup next year. Add in whatever we get for Zuc,Hayes, McQuaid, Vesey,Staal(if we can) Smith(if we can). That's just year 2 if we can lure Panarin here, year 3 should be even better. I'll admit Panarin or someone of that ilk is pretty important.

Panarin Zibanajad Buchnevich
Kreider Howden Chytil
Spooner Anderson Kravtsov
Letteri Namesticov Fast.

Skjei Pionk
Hajek shattenkirk
DeAngelo Smith
Staal

 

[MetalJaws]

Fast is killing Zib and Kreider 5v5. Why the hell is this 4th line player, playing top line min still? This has to be a tank strategy to limit Kreider and Zib, no other reason. Literally every player on our current roster aside from Lettieri would be a better fit. Fast is a try hard 4th liner. This Fast love has been going on long enough. This insanity needs to end. Fast has ZERO business playing a top 6 role. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Kreider - Zib - Buch
Chytil - Howden - Zucc
Names - Hayes - Vesey
Lettieri - Spooner - Fast <--- 4th line player on the 4th line!

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

This is and has been my point all along. The team is terrible and the so called "talent" that is here has never proven anything that shows me that this team deserves to be built around them. Kreider is not 23 anymore-- he is what he is by this point. Hayes, also not 23--he is who he is.

I feel like you're using the term "built around them" wrong here.

To me "built around them" implies that we aim to win with those guys at the core. This is the opposite of what's going on. management literally came out last season and said "We're going to suck, we're going to rebuild while we suck" and these were the guys left over. management KNOWS that you won't build a winner around these guys. But some of them are great vets and locker room leaders who bust their ass and couldn't return a lot in a trade and so they were kept.
There are a few like Kreider and Hayes who still could have potentially blossomed in a larger role. So if there were no significant trade offers, why force them out before now? You need SOME vets and we couldn't get a good enough offer for some of these guys (Zucc, Zib) so they remain.

A lot of these guys remind me of the way people used to talk about Derek Stepan back in the day. Everyone kept holding out for that "breakthrough" year when he would justify their analysis that he was a first line center. It never happened and he went to Arizona, where, again he is proving he is not a first line center.

I haven't seen this happen as much as I think you're implying it happens .

I don't think too many people were legitimately hoping for any of our current guys to suddenly morph into a bona fide top 20 forward with amazing production and game breaking ability. Maybe a few scattered souls were chatting up Mika and Kreider but I really haven't seen much besides doubt and skepticism regarding those two.

People have a tendency to believe first round talent can be organically grown. It's a fallacy. To play on the first line you need the talent. No one on this current roster is a first line player because no one has the talent. Zib would be a solid second liner and so would Kreider on any competitive roster. Our 3rd and 4th line, would not even be in the NHL on any competitive roster.

I think we need to clarify your definition of first line talent.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I feel like you're using the term "built around them" wrong here.

To me "built around them" implies that we aim to win with those guys at the core. This is the opposite of what's going on. management literally came out last season and said "We're going to suck, we're going to rebuild while we suck" and these were the guys left over. management KNOWS that you won't build a winner around these guys. But some of them are great vets and locker room leaders who bust their ass and couldn't return a lot in a trade and so they were kept.
There are a few like Kreider and Hayes who still could have potentially blossomed in a larger role. So if there were no significant trade offers, why force them out before now? You need SOME vets and we couldn't get a good enough offer for some of these guys (Zucc, Zib) so they remain.



I haven't seen this happen as much as I think you're implying it happens .

I don't think too many people were legitimately hoping for any of our current guys to suddenly morph into a bona fide top 20 forward with amazing production and game breaking ability. Maybe a few scattered souls were chatting up Mika and Kreider but I really haven't seen much besides doubt and skepticism regarding those two.



I think we need to clarify your definition of first line talent.

I think Mika could possibly be a 1st line center if he has 1st line wingers, other than that we are pretty barren for first line talent on this team.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Y'know I keep hearing about Panarin this, Panarin that. Just wait for Panarin.
Panarin is the latest panacea in a long line of hyped up panacea's for this teams issues with finding a top line.
I have to ask
What is he able to do that will allow him to take over games for us and carry us to wins? Because what usually happens is that the shiny toy comes over and fits right in with the rest of the guys who score maybe 50 points because none of them is truly a top talent.

Outside of Jagr and Gaborik, who has lived up to even half the hype that this board has given them?

I'm not even saying it won't be Panarin, I'm asking why it will be.

Redden, yandle, shattenkirk, Richards, St. Louis, Nash, Erixon, Vesey, Hayes, Gilroy. Let's not forget the hype for Gomez and Drury. Each time, this place has DROOLED over these guys almost unanimously and this place is wrong. Every. Single. Time.

Can anyone actually breakdown Panarin's game and demonstrate how he can come in here, carry a line by himself or elevate his teammates enough to justify the hype he's getting?

 

[nyr__1994]

Y'know I keep hearing about Panarin this, Panarin that. Just wait for Panarin.
Panarin is the latest panacea in a long line of hyped up panacea's for this teams issues with finding a top line.
I have to ask
What is he able to do that will allow him to take over games for us and carry us to wins? Because what usually happens is that the shiny toy comes over and fits right in with the rest of the guys who score maybe 50 points because none of them is truly a top talent.

Outside of Jagr and Gaborik, who has lived up to even half the hype that this board has given them?

I'm not even saying it won't be Panarin, I'm asking why it will be.

Redden, yandle, shattenkirk, Richards, St. Louis, Nash, Erixon, Vesey, Hayes, Gilroy. Let's not forget the hype for Gomez and Drury. Each time, this place has DROOLED over these guys almost unanimously and this place is wrong. Every. Single. Time.

Can anyone actually breakdown Panarin's game and demonstrate how he can come in here, carry a line by himself or elevate his teammates enough to justify the hype he's getting?

How Blue Jackets' Cam Atkinson and Pierre-Luc Dubois have...


"With full respect to Dubois and Atkinson, Panarin is the catalyst of that line and of the Blue Jackets offense. As Tortorella said Friday, he has the ability “to change the defense with his body language, his eyes.”

"But I think that’s where he’s elite, when the first option isn’t there. He doesn’t lose the puck. He doesn’t get pinned. He just has a Plan B (snaps fingers) like that! And that’s often the most dangerous play, because nobody knows what’s next."

"I played with (Chicago’s Patrick) Kane and (Calgary’s Johnny) Gaudreau at the World Championships (last spring). They’re similar. They want the puck. They always want the puck, so get open. I’ve played with a lot of great players here (in Columbus), too, but he’s by far the best one."

"It’s almost like … it’s hard to explain. If you just watch him messing around in practice … I can’t explain it, but he’s got the puck on a string like I’ve never seen. It’s like his mind is going 1 million miles per hour and his hands are able to follow. That’s why he’s elite, right?"

All from a recent article in The Athletic

 

[Crease]

It's the old adage: if a player is on a breakaway, but that player is Brandon Prust, is it really a breakaway?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Y'know I keep hearing about Panarin this, Panarin that. Just wait for Panarin.
Panarin is the latest panacea in a long line of hyped up panacea's for this teams issues with finding a top line.
I have to ask
What is he able to do that will allow him to take over games for us and carry us to wins? Because what usually happens is that the shiny toy comes over and fits right in with the rest of the guys who score maybe 50 points because none of them is truly a top talent.

Outside of Jagr and Gaborik, who has lived up to even half the hype that this board has given them?

I'm not even saying it won't be Panarin, I'm asking why it will be.

Redden, yandle, shattenkirk, Richards, St. Louis, Nash, Erixon, Vesey, Hayes, Gilroy. Let's not forget the hype for Gomez and Drury. Each time, this place has DROOLED over these guys almost unanimously and this place is wrong. Every. Single. Time.

Can anyone actually breakdown Panarin's game and demonstrate how he can come in here, carry a line by himself or elevate his teammates enough to justify the hype he's getting?

We have a team full of passers and we need a shooter. We have needed one since a while, we've gotten Zibanajad and that helped but we need someone else who shoots first. Theres no guarantee he can take us anywhere but if you have a chance at getting an elite scorer without giving up assets you do it. The key part is that he just costs money and we continue to rebuild around him.

 

[offdacrossbar]

We heavily out chanced them.

The lack of finishers on this team is a thing but let’s not get it twisted, their goalie straight up won them this game.

eh not so fast.

we had chances but shots arent chances and we both know that. they were/are the far better team.

we definitely lack finishers and have for ever it seems. maybe MSL was the last true sniper and he was on the tail end of that career.

their goalie won the game i agree but again, no name comes into garden and suddenly becomes a patrick roy/ dominik hasek hybrid in net.

some luck and skill on the net minders part sure plus a shit ton of average on our part.

 

[haveandare]

If I never ever hear the term "hot take" again, I'll be a happy man.

 

[SA16]

Interesting and meaningless stat.

You are comparing a career year to stats in a given year. Look up the career best for all your cited players and note where Kreider falls in your rankings.

It's not really a career year. It just happens to be the first year he was allowed to play over 16 minutes a game. As I've posted earlier there is not one player in the entire history of the NHL who has scored 70 points playing 16 minutes a game or less so his numbers were very capped in previous years playing only 15:30. And last year he was on the same pace but missed time hurt.

If you look at under 15 mins only one player has ever hit 60 (Kucherov). Don't think NHL.com lets me filter for non-integers unfortunately but Kreider averaged 15:50 those few years which is close enough to 16 that I doubt it makes a difference.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

How Blue Jackets' Cam Atkinson and Pierre-Luc Dubois have...


"With full respect to Dubois and Atkinson, Panarin is the catalyst of that line and of the Blue Jackets offense. As Tortorella said Friday, he has the ability “to change the defense with his body language, his eyes.”

"But I think that’s where he’s elite, when the first option isn’t there. He doesn’t lose the puck. He doesn’t get pinned. He just has a Plan B (snaps fingers) like that! And that’s often the most dangerous play, because nobody knows what’s next."

"I played with (Chicago’s Patrick) Kane and (Calgary’s Johnny) Gaudreau at the World Championships (last spring). They’re similar. They want the puck. They always want the puck, so get open. I’ve played with a lot of great players here (in Columbus), too, but he’s by far the best one."

"It’s almost like … it’s hard to explain. If you just watch him messing around in practice … I can’t explain it, but he’s got the puck on a string like I’ve never seen. It’s like his mind is going 1 million miles per hour and his hands are able to follow. That’s why he’s elite, right?"

All from a recent article in The Athletic

Sounds good but how do I know it isn't just teammates blowing smoke?

 

[nyr__1994]

Sounds good but how do I know it isn't just teammates blowing smoke?

Oh I don;t know, maybe because you can say that about any person talking about anything....

You asked, I provided an answer, you obviously didn't like the answer so you disregarded it.

But, who better to break down what Panarin does that makes him good thank his coach and the two players who play with him.

 

[Inferno]

eh not so fast.

we had chances but shots arent chances and we both know that. they were/are the far better team.

we definitely lack finishers and have for ever it seems. maybe MSL was the last true sniper and he was on the tail end of that career.

their goalie won the game i agree but again, no name comes into garden and suddenly becomes a patrick roy/ dominik hasek hybrid in net.

some luck and skill on the net minders part sure plus a **** ton of average on our part.

I have no idea what the scoring chances were...but it felt like we out chances them 4 to 1.

 

[JohnC]

I think Mika could possibly be a 1st line center if he has 1st line wingers, other than that we are pretty barren for first line talent on this team.

Kreider is a 1st line winger.

Those two with a 2013-2015 Rick Nash would’ve been nasty.