GDT: #40 | Flyers at Leafs | Sunday, January 5, 2024 | 7:00 PM TONIGHT | NBCSP, 97.5 FM

[ybnvs]

No. The talent has to come into the culture. If not, you get Buffalo.

Teams across every sport draft and trade for talent first, not culture.

You may want the Flyers to draft and trade for culture first, but that's just not how the sports world works.

Tell me, when drafting players for culture - what exactly are you looking for? Itemize the criteria you require for 17-18yr old boys.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

To be clear, nowhere have I said the current team is any good. It's not.

Where we differ is that I see a pathway that leads to success and continued success after the 26/27 season. They might screw it up of course, but I can see a way it can work out well. I will not hold Briere or Jones to mistakes made by Fletcher or earlier. I find that just negativity for the sake of being negative. It's an easy "told you so" and it seems to revel in failure. I would not watch at all rather than live in that world.

I see you're still ignoring the massive blunders current management has been making while talking this fair shake nonsense. Also choosing to ignore that this management group is in the same mold of management that's been in place for the Flyers since the 1990s. It's amazing how you equate facts into being negative

Yours is the half empty pessimist view. You can have that. Not for me. I find that way of living unhealthy. If I felt that pessimistic about my sports team I would stop watching just to clear my head of the negativity. Or I'd find a new team.
So you can have that view, and you can say the past mistakes guarantee future ones but you won't get me to sail on that sinking ship.

No one's living pessmisticly we're talking about a hockey team not our lives. You're method of enjoying the team is sticking your head in the sand labeling posters as negative because you don't have any cogent arguments against the reality that is this team. No one cares how you live your life or what you do as a fairweather fan just start posting shit that makes sense.

 

[deadhead]

Teams across every sport draft and trade for talent first, not culture.

You may want the Flyers to draft and trade for culture first, but that's just not how the sports world works.

Tell me, when drafting players for culture - what exactly are you looking for? Itemize the criteria you require for 17-18yr old boys.

That's not true, smart teams build draft boards around players they think are good fits.

They'll take players off the draft board or drop them a tier or two if they don't have the right intangibles (or the wrong ones).

"Talent" is a mix of attributes, work ethic for example increases the odds a player will translate raw physical talent to production. Motor, IQ, etc. You're drafting a package of physical and mental attributes and character. And you're projecting from lower level performance to high level pro performance, so looking great in the CHL doesn't necessarily translate to the NHL. Projecting a player at 18 to 22-23 isn't an exact science.

 

[deadhead]

Tell me, when drafting players for culture - what exactly are you looking for? Itemize the criteria you require for 17-18yr old boys.

You don't draft for "culture," you draft for attributes that correlate to professional success.
The one's I'd look for apart from raw physical talent:

IQ, on offense, vision, seeing the ice and how plays unfold, being able to anticipate, on defense, understanding responsibilities and positioning and angles.
Work Ethic: some players work harder off the ice, they improve their skating, their shot, get stronger, study film more than their peers, and given their physical limits, improve more
Motor: some players have more drive, stamina, recover quicker, play at full speed every shift
Competitiveness: some players hate to lose and play that way
Self-motivated/emotionally secure: some players can handle criticism and use it to self-evaluate, don't need to be pushed, set an example for teammates, natural leaders

These attributes can't turn an average player into McDavid, but they increase the odds that the player will improve over time and outperform expectations based on current play at lower levels.

 

[MJL66]

That's not true, smart teams build draft boards around players they think are good fits.

They'll take players off the draft board or drop them a tier or two if they don't have the right intangibles (or the wrong ones).

"Talent" is a mix of attributes, work ethic for example increases the odds a player will translate raw physical talent to production. Motor, IQ, etc. You're drafting a package of physical and mental attributes and character. And you're projecting from lower level performance to high level pro performance, so looking great in the CHL doesn't necessarily translate to the NHL. Projecting a player at 18 to 22-23 isn't an exact science.

Yes, it is true. A team is not going to take a more talented player and drop him down the board because of a lesser important intangible. Unless there is some serious red flag. These are kids that are not adults. Are not physically, mentally or emotionally mature. At least the smart team won't, Now if players are similarly talented then other factors can be a tie breaker. That's the Flyers problem. The most likely reason they drafted Luchanko over Buium is because they liked his intangibles. His 200 foot game, work ethic, etc. They continually overvalue other factors over talent. It's part of why they're not a well run franchise and in fact, one of the worst run franchises in the NHL.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No. The talent has to come into the culture. If not, you get Buffalo.

Colorado and Pittsburgh completely puke on this idea. Likewise Florida.

There's a reason the Flyers have spent a decade hyper focused on building culture and the sum result is that the culture is still crap and the team is bad.

Edit: oh TB too, we heard all about how their culture is bad.


Weird how so many teams can have wretched culture that has to be fixed via sweeping trades, only for the team's to do nothing and the culture to be magically fixed by winning. Winning breeds culture. Talent breeds winning. You want culture? Get the talent.

Edit 2: The Flyers are already Buffalo. The exact same. We are already there.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Red Queen effect. As the rules allowed smaller, more skilled players to thrive, the league got slightly smaller (about 5 lbs) and faster. But this also made players who could skate, forecheck and play defense more valuable than bigger, slower, more physical players. So the league has gotten faster in the bottom six, and those small skilled players have smaller windows and face physical play from faster players who can hound them.

Flyers are 13th in ES scoring, ahead of Minnesota, NJ and Florida.
Last 21 games, they're 4th in ES scoring, so seems they've become the team you want.
They're 6th in xGF/60, so they're not doing it on some sort of scoring heater.
They need to improve STs and goalies to be competitive.
ES scoring will continue to improve as they incrementally add talent and get more experience.

Now compare shooting percentages last year and this year and tell me if you think an enormous jump up the ladder by the same players is due to last.

 

[MJL66]

Colorado and Pittsburgh completely puke on this idea. Likewise Florida.

There's a reason the Flyers have spent a decade hyper focused on building culture and the sum result is that the culture is still crap and the team is bad.

As you know, the situation in Buffalo has nothing to do with culture. For the Flyers, culture is an invisible product and talking point that they market and sell to their mostly gullible fan base. Yea, we suck but we're doing things the right way, building culture. It's used car salesman BS.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Colorado and Pittsburgh completely puke on this idea. Likewise Florida.

There's a reason the Flyers have spent a decade hyper focused on building culture and the sum result is that the culture is still crap and the team is bad.

Edit: oh TB too, we heard all about how their culture is bad.


Weird how so many teams can have wretched culture that has to be fixed via sweeping trades, only for the team's to do nothing and the culture to be magically fixed by winning. Winning breeds culture. Talent breeds winning. You want culture? Get the talent.

Don't forget that they've had the best locker room in the league several times only for the locker room to be blamed for the issues.

 

[Beef Invictus]

As you know, the situation in Buffalo has nothing to do with culture. For the Flyers, culture is an invisible product and talking point that they market and sell to their mostly gullible fan base. Yea, we suck but we're doing things the right way, building culture. It's used car salesman BS.

There's also the fact that the Flyers are the same as Buffalo so they don't work as a boogeyman

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

There's also the fact that the Flyers are the same as Buffalo so they don't work as a boogeyman

Saw today on Twitter that the Flyers, Sabres, and Utah’s are the only teams not to host a second round game since the 2013 lockout.

Would really suck to be the Sabres.

 

[kudymen]

Backreading feels like there is some really weird new animal at the zoo. Like really, really weird.

 

[ybnvs]

That's not true, smart teams build draft boards around players they think are good fits.

When drafting at the top of the 1st round, you do not draft for fit.

 

[deadhead]

Of course you draft for fit, why would you want a player who's a bad fit to your style of play?
When Rutherford promoted Sullivan, he also replaced a half dozen players who didn't fit the way Sullivan wanted the Pens to play.

This doesn't mean you reach, rather, when putting draft tiers together, you weigh all these different attributes and how they impact value to your team. Most players have flaws and limitations, building a team is like putting a crossword puzzle together, which is why even smart GMs have different values for different prospects.

Really talented players with good intangibles can play any style, that's why they go at the top of the draft. Other players are best in certain systems that play to their strengths and hide their weaknesses. Makar would have succeeded anywhere, Toews is much better on the Avs than he was on the Isles.

 

[Boocowski]

Teams across every sport draft and trade for talent first, not culture.

You may want the Flyers to draft and trade for culture first, but that's just not how the sports world works.

Tell me, when drafting players for culture - what exactly are you looking for? Itemize the criteria you require for 17-18yr old boys.

First off, NHL draft is very different from NFL or even NBA. Go look over the NHL drafts and see how few players make it and how little difference there is after the first few top picks. Sure, you build with draft picks but whether you pick 6th, 12th, even 18th. it doesn't make all that much difference.

Didn't say you "draft for culture" I said you build the culture first and then bring the young guys into that culture.

 

[Boocowski]

I see you're still ignoring the massive blunders current management has been making while talking this fair shake nonsense. Also choosing to ignore that this management group is in the same mold of management that's been in place for the Flyers since the 1990s. It's amazing how you equate facts into being negative

No one's living pessmisticly we're talking about a hockey team not our lives. You're method of enjoying the team is sticking your head in the sand labeling posters as negative because you don't have any cogent arguments against the reality that is this team. No one cares how you live your life or what you do as a fairweather fan just start posting shit that makes sense.

I'm quite the opposite of a "fair weather fan". A fair weather fan wouldn't be here would he?

What are the current "massive blunders"? A trade that didn't happen? You don't like a draft pick? What? I don't see these massive blunders. You probably just want to talk Gauthier, but the truth of that is imo muddy at best. Even if it is a massive blunder, that's one. What's the rest of the list?

 

[Boocowski]

Colorado and Pittsburgh completely puke on this idea. Likewise Florida.

There's a reason the Flyers have spent a decade hyper focused on building culture and the sum result is that the culture is still crap and the team is bad.

Edit: oh TB too, we heard all about how their culture is bad.


Weird how so many teams can have wretched culture that has to be fixed via sweeping trades, only for the team's to do nothing and the culture to be magically fixed by winning. Winning breeds culture. Talent breeds winning. You want culture? Get the talent.

Edit 2: The Flyers are already Buffalo. The exact same. We are already there.

Nope and nope and nope.

Colorado and Pittsburgh are the exceptions because their superstars (McKinnon and Crosby) are the kind of star players that have it all and are leaders and drag others into the fight. Their compete level is off the charts. If you can get a guy like that sure it works, but they are rare to say the least.

Florida argues against your point. Take Reinhart for example. Look at how much better he is when inserted into that culture than he was in Buffalo, a team with zero culture so far.

The TB story is obvious. They were talented but were early exit until they added the grit and toughness. So it's not impossible to go that way, but it still takes time and key additions. Chicken and egg stuff.

We're not Buffalo. They are extremely talented with a load of high picks on the roster but they have a crap culture and so they still lose. Philly works harder, has a better team concept and generally a better work ethic but they lack talent. Exact opposite. I guess we will see which one gets good first and there's your answer to which plan is better.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

I'm quite the opposite of a "fair weather fan". A fair weather fan wouldn't be here would he?

What are the current "massive blunders"? A trade that didn't happen? You don't like a draft pick? What? I don't see these massive blunders. You probably just want to talk Gauthier, but the truth of that is imo muddy at best. Even if it is a massive blunder, that's one. What's the rest of the list?

Funny wasnt it you who just said they wouldnt follow the team and youd find a new one if you ever got to the point of being "negative" towards the team? Sounds pretty fair weather to me.

And again you cant make cogent arguments you just completely ignore facts. Current management has run a folly at every turn save for actually picking Michkov. The Gauthier situation was a triple whammy by itself. 1 they f***ed it up so much he no longer wanted to sign here 2 they traded him for peanuts (decision made based off intel from an advisor) and 3 supposedly one of the reasons they passed on Buium was because his agent is Gauthiers agent and they were afraid they couldnt sign him.

Also its not just "picks I dont like" its draft talent left on the table. Perrault is proving he should of been the pick over Bonk, and Buium absolutely should of been the pick over Luchanko. The only other pick Brier has mad that looks like it could yield a high end player is Yegor Zavragin, but goalies are very volatile so cant be too sure as of yet. Every other pick has been meh to blegh. Hopefully they pull off a miracle this draft, but not holding my breath.

Also current management is continuing the trend of trying to compete while "retooling" on the fly, which is what theyve been doing since Hextall. They talked rebuild when Briere started, but Jones stated that was bull they were saying to the fans. So theyve continued to make bad signings (Johnson, Seeler, Hathaway re-up). Theyve refused to cash in on players whos timeslines wouldnt fit a cup contention window. Theyve demoted their 3rd best D cause they apparently dont want too many smol bois, even though Andrae doesnt play small. They lack talent, and have stated that they arent going to go after top talent cause according to Briere the Flyers arent going to be that team with 1 or 2 elite players. So dont expect much happening in your magical 26-27 window.

How many more examples of f*** ups do you want or was that enough? Are all those facts too negative for you? I should probably find a different team eh

 

[deadhead]

Also current management is continuing the trend of trying to compete while "retooling" on the fly, which is what theyve been doing since Hextall. They talked rebuild when Briere started, but Jones stated that was bull they were saying to the fans. So theyve continued to make bad signings (Johnson, Seeler, Hathaway re-up). Theyve refused to cash in on players whos timeslines wouldnt fit a cup contention window. Theyve demoted their 3rd best D cause they apparently dont want too many smol bois, even though Andrae doesnt play small. They lack talent, and have stated that they arent going to go after top talent cause according to Briere the Flyers arent going to be that team with 1 or 2 elite players. So dont expect much happening in your magical 26-27 window.

None of this is true. They're not reloading, they haven't used any real assets on veterans.
What you're talking about is tanking, not rebuilding. Trading everyone and sucking for five years and getting picks in the bottom 5. That train left after the 2018 season when Holmgren refused.

They got lucky when they couldn't move Sanheim (which is what you're recommending).
TK is showing that he's far better than what they would have received in a trade last summer.
Hathaway and Seeler are short-term patches, instead of signing veterans they kept a couple they thought were good mentors. The cost was a couple mid-round picks they might have picked up.

Andrae wasn't their "3rd best D-man," he had a nice 9 game stretch, but he's not a finished product.
And he got sent down b/c Zamula was playing as well and is out of options.
He wasn't going to play ahead of Seeler, b/c Seeler's role is to protect and mentor Drysdale.

They're not going after top talent b/c in their situation, you have be lucky, you either hit on one later in the draft or the right trade comes along - but you can't force it to happen. So you keep accumulating assets and wait for lightning to strike.

Now whether it'll work is unknown, but they have a coherent plan.
They've been patient, they haven't let a bad record push them into hasty moves, they've kept their "eye on the prize."

 

[Beef Invictus]

Nope and nope and nope.

Colorado and Pittsburgh are the exceptions because their superstars (McKinnon and Crosby) are the kind of star players that have it all and are leaders and drag others into the fight. Their compete level is off the charts. If you can get a guy like that sure it works, but they are rare to say the least.

Florida argues against your point. Take Reinhart for example. Look at how much better he is when inserted into that culture than he was in Buffalo, a team with zero culture so far.

The TB story is obvious. They were talented but were early exit until they added the grit and toughness. So it's not impossible to go that way, but it still takes time and key additions. Chicken and egg stuff.

We're not Buffalo. They are extremely talented with a load of high picks on the roster but they have a crap culture and so they still lose. Philly works harder, has a better team concept and generally a better work ethic but they lack talent. Exact opposite. I guess we will see which one gets good first and there's your answer to which plan is better.

Every single team I mentioned was slammed (Pitt most of all) for being huge culture failures who had to fix their culture, and each one of them did nothing of the sort and ended up winning.

We are Buffalo. We are a joke franchise going nowhere. A punchline to the rest of the league. Buffalo has more wine than us going back to 2020, did you know that? In reality we are a bit worse than Buffalo.

It's hilarious for you to throw them out as a boogeyman when Buffalo fans can look at Philly and say "at least we aren't them."

 

[deadhead]

Every single team I mentioned was slammed (Pitt most of all) for being huge culture failures who had to fix their culture, and each one of them did nothing of the sort and ended up winning.

That's not true at all, Pittsburgh was completely revamped by Rutherford.
After they lost in the first round in 2015,
subtracted: Downie, Sutter, Spaling, Martin, Comeau, Perron, Lapierre, Winnik, Scudari, Chorney
added: Kessel, Bonino, Hagelin, Cullen, Daley, Fehr, Schultz, Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Maata, Murray

Turned over more than half the roster in one year.

 

[Boocowski]

. The Gauthier situation was a triple whammy by itself. 1 they f***ed it up so much he no longer wanted to sign here 2 they traded him for peanuts (decision made based off intel from an advisor)

and yet, Gauthier booed all night by fans in the building so I don't think they agree with you and Drysdale the peanut scores twice. So whatever.

It's hilarious for you to throw them out as a boogeyman when Buffalo fans can look at Philly and say "at least we aren't them."

I'd like you to find me one that says that. I know lots of Buffalo fans as I grew up close to there and followed them in my youth. Some of them don't think Philly is any good either, but some of them even say Buffalo should have hired Torts and want a version of that but carry on believing your narrative if you want to.