GDT: #40 | Flyers at Leafs | Sunday, January 5, 2024 | 7:00 PM TONIGHT | NBCSP, 97.5 FM

[Rich Nixon]

I deleted the first paragraph because you want to get personal and that's pointless. Give the insults a rest.
Now as to the second (above) there is no ONE WAY and there are many versions of how rebuilds work and don't work. For every success on a "plan" I can give you a team with the exact same "plan" that failed miserably. When I do that, the counter is to point out the differences and so the argument goes forever.
I see a pathway to long term success. You don't. The negativity crew doesn't. Fair enough. You guys want to dominate the conversation and high five the failures for your own self images. Okay, enjoy that. You won't put me off from seeing that pathway. It's real. Like it or not.

Amazing how much content a little positivity can create lol.

Nothing personal about what I said, I'm simply describing the nature of the interactions we've had in this thread. I think "I bet you didn't play hockey" is much closer to "personal" than "you're just consistently misinterpreting, running away from, or ignoring very simple, straightforward points." And neither particularly are.

The other part is that I covered—multiple times—why teams that never escape the bottom end up in that cycle, while you've provided exactly 0 examples of teams that managed to attain sustained contention without ever visiting the bottom. I'm totally open to hearing those. I like good, thoughtful conversations. I don't like evasiveness or bad faith.

I admire the positivity, but I haven't been given reason to share it. Circa ~5 years ago, I was in the "it isn't as bad as others here say it is/things might work out" camp. Hell, at the start of Briere's tenure I had some hope that he'd be a departure from the script and he might bring some honest, modern thinking to the table. But the franchise has beaten all that clean out of me.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

THEY INHERITED?! It’s Briere’s own god damn doing!

P.S. The right hand man of the guy who drafted the guy that “isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire” at fifth overall is still HEAVILY empowered within this organization. That’s a MASSIVE indictment.

 

[MJL66]

THEY INHERITED?! It’s Briere’s own god damn doing!

P.S. The right hand man of the guy who drafted the guy that “isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire” at fifth overall is still HEAVILY empowered within this organization. That’s a MASSIVE indictment.

I don''t have an issue with drafting Gauthier. I think he's going to be a pretty good player.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I don''t have an issue with drafting Gauthier. I think he's going to be a pretty good player.

Which is fine and all but you can’t act as if he’s a nothing player and at the same time hype up the organization.

 

[MJL66]

Which is fine and all but you can’t act as if he’s a nothing player and at the same time hype up the organization.

Agreed

 

[deadhead]

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

 

[MJL66]

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

Where do I begin. I think they could possibly get a 3rd for Hathaway. He is the kind of player that playoff teams like for depth and on the 4th line. Moving him also creates an open space for a younger player. This ties into Lycksell. He's shown he can hold his own in the NHL and should already have been given a consistent opportunity. The Flyers want to try and compete and favor that over player development. They refuse to create openings and are terrified of losing. Even when it's what is neccessary. You're also wrong that the reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula. On a rebuilding team, both should be in the lineup. Again, they need their safety blankets with players like Seeler and Ristolainen. Both shouldn't be on the team.

Briere did not take over in April. He was named interim GM on March 10th 2023 and was named full time GM on May 11th 2023

 

[Beef Invictus]

That is one philosophy. It doesn't work usually, but it is a philosophy used by some and has generated regular season success. It usually fails in the playoffs (eg. Toronto). Consider Cassidy in Vegas as the alternative since you don't like using Florida as the example. Only when these teams added top level defense did they get to the top level.

We obviously have a different view of what the base requires. We will not ever agree, that is obvious.

It actually works brilliantly and is a major reason why the teams with the best defensive results in the league have those results.

Also, Toronto didn't just fail out of the playoffs due to poor defense. Their defense was actually pretty good. They lost because their offense died. You win by scoring goals and they didn't, so that's not a great counter example.

Your idea of a base is 25 years behind the sport. The dead puck era is well over.

 

[MJL66]

It actually works brilliantly and is a major reason why the teams with the best defensive results in the league have those results.

Also, Toronto didn't just fail out of the playoffs due to poor defense. Their defense was actually pretty good. They lost because their offense died. You win by scoring goals and they didn't, so that's not a great counter example.

Your idea of a base is 25 years behind the sport. The dead puck era is well over.

He's living in the stone ages and obviously does not understand the modern day NHL

 

[Boocowski]

You're wrong, it does usually work. Not for every team but that is how every good team wins. It's time for you to leave the stone ages and move into the modern day NHL

There are people that like to say that. The "modern day NHL" but the tough defensive teams keep winning cups and the soft flashy offensive teams keep having good regular seasons and playoff busts. Stoneage alive and well (literally in Vegas).

It actually works brilliantly and is a major reason why the teams with the best defensive results in the league have those results.

Also, Toronto didn't just fail out of the playoffs due to poor defense. Their defense was actually pretty good. They lost because their offense died. You win by scoring goals and they didn't, so that's not a great counter example.

Your idea of a base is 25 years behind the sport. The dead puck era is well over.

Ya it is a good counter. Boston and Florida both beat the Laughs by being tougher and better defensively. It's not a unique thing. Even Tampa, with a heap of talent, got beat down by a tough Columbus team. Then they added the toughness and defensive play they needed and won a couple cups. It's almost always the same.

 

[Boocowski]

I admire the positivity, but I haven't been given reason to share it. Circa ~5 years ago, I was in the "it isn't as bad as others here say it is/things might work out" camp. Hell, at the start of Briere's tenure I had some hope that he'd be a departure from the script and he might bring some honest, modern thinking to the table. But the franchise has beaten all that clean out of me.

To be clear, nowhere have I said the current team is any good. It's not.

Where we differ is that I see a pathway that leads to success and continued success after the 26/27 season. They might screw it up of course, but I can see a way it can work out well. I will not hold Briere or Jones to mistakes made by Fletcher or earlier. I find that just negativity for the sake of being negative. It's an easy "told you so" and it seems to revel in failure. I would not watch at all rather than live in that world.

Honestly imo the biggest thing that screwed this team was the Carter Hart situation. Goaltending has killed this team over the last few years more than anything else. The team loses confidence when those goalies suck as well. That's not say we'd win the cup or anything with good goaltending, but we'd probably have made the playoffs last year, we'd be in the hunt this year and things would just be more fun. As is, we have to be patient and hope they draft well, trade well, and then later sign some key pieces. All of that is very possible and so I believe in 2027 this will be a top tier team led by allstar Michkov.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There are people that like to say that. The "modern day NHL" but the tough defensive teams keep winning cups and the soft flashy offensive teams keep having good regular seasons and playoff busts. Stoneage alive and well (literally in Vegas).


Ya it is a good counter. Boston and Florida both beat the Laughs by being tougher and better defensively. It's not a unique thing. Even Tampa, with a heap of talent, got beat down by a tough Columbus team. Then they added the toughness and defensive play they needed and won a couple cups. It's almost always the same.

No, they outscored them. Using offense. This always seems to come as a surprise to some people, but every single hockey game that has been won has been won by the team that can score more. The best defensive team in the league rarely wins. Top offenses, however, do better when it matters. And when it comes to defensive results? Again, huge correlation between offensive ability and defensive results. When you're scoring, the other team isn't. That's good defense.

The team that scores more wins. Again, we have actual metrics to measure defense. The mythology that the Leafs are bad at defense because they're skilled fails every test.

Here, let's make this simple. One easy question. Is keeping the other team from being able to try to score on you good defense?

 

[MJL66]

There are people that like to say that. The "modern day NHL" but the tough defensive teams keep winning cups and the soft flashy offensive teams keep having good regular seasons and playoff busts. Stoneage alive and well (literally in Vegas).

That's just your uninformed take on it. It's really not the tough defensive teams that keep winning cups. It's the tough offensive teams. You just don't know what you're looking at.

 

[MJL66]

To be clear, nowhere have I said the current team is any good. It's not.

Where we differ is that I see a pathway that leads to success and continued success after the 26/27 season. They might screw it up of course, but I can see a way it can work out well. I will not hold Briere or Jones to mistakes made by Fletcher or earlier. I find that just negativity for the sake of being negative. It's an easy "told you so" and it seems to revel in failure. I would not watch at all rather than live in that world.

Honestly imo the biggest thing that screwed this team was the Carter Hart situation. Goaltending has killed this team over the last few years more than anything else. The team loses confidence when those goalies suck as well. That's not say we'd win the cup or anything with good goaltending, but we'd probably have made the playoffs last year, we'd be in the hunt this year and things would just be more fun. As is, we have to be patient and hope they draft well, trade well, and then later sign some key pieces. All of that is very possible and so I believe in 2027 this will be a top tier team led by allstar Michkov.

You think that this management group in 26/27 is going to magically sign UFA's and or make trades to push this team to contention? This management group that can't even reach the low bar they've set now. Any players drafted in the next couple of years, are years away. Losing Hart was a blessing in disguise. Helps the team get a higher draft pick and kept the team from doing what they wouldn't be smart enough to not do. Sign an average goalie in Hart to a long term contract. There is zero chance this is a top tier team in 2027. Literally zero. If this team reaches the level of contention, it will be 5-10 years from now, Thinking they will be in 2027 is fan boy delusion. This team needs a legit #1 defenseman, another top tier defenseman, a #1C and a 2nd high quality top 6 center and it needs it's goaltending the vastly improve. To believe they can do that in two years, is illogical. It's just blind hope with you with no actual thought to what needs to happen.

 

[Rich Nixon]

To be clear, nowhere have I said the current team is any good. It's not.

Where we differ is that I see a pathway that leads to success and continued success after the 26/27 season. They might screw it up of course, but I can see a way it can work out well. I will not hold Briere or Jones to mistakes made by Fletcher or earlier. I find that just negativity for the sake of being negative. It's an easy "told you so" and it seems to revel in failure. I would not watch at all rather than live in that world.

Honestly imo the biggest thing that screwed this team was the Carter Hart situation. Goaltending has killed this team over the last few years more than anything else. The team loses confidence when those goalies suck as well. That's not say we'd win the cup or anything with good goaltending, but we'd probably have made the playoffs last year, we'd be in the hunt this year and things would just be more fun. As is, we have to be patient and hope they draft well, trade well, and then later sign some key pieces. All of that is very possible and so I believe in 2027 this will be a top tier team led by allstar Michkov.

This might get long, because I want to be thorough about where my criticism and negativity comes from:

Goaltending may have cost them the playoffs last year. I'm not sure if them making it would have changed much—they would have been first round cannon fodder and would have dropped a few slots in the draft, but they'd have still been able to draft Luchanko at 18, so who knows. If anything, I think missing them actually decreased the pressure on management, because they'd have been in the same place this season either way.

But when I say I had hopes for Briere early on, I'm not judging him off of Fletcher's mistakes so much as his unwillingness to undo them and his behavior since taking the job. In terms of what we saw, I think he got off to a strong start with the Provorov trade. They did really well there, and I found that encouraging.

Everything after has been questionable. Someone offers you a 1st+ for Laughton (as was rumored in his first summer)? You take that deal. You wanna sign Konecny long-term? Fine, but why Tippett too? Are we building the first RW-only team? Why are we extending guys like Hathaway and Seeler before their deals end? Why are we letting the coach bury some younger middle-of-the-lineup talent? If they aren't going to be here for the long haul, why aren't we raising their value and then moving them? None of these things make sense to me.

The nail in the coffin for me was the Gauthier situation, which I am tired of rehashing, but was just such a blatant shitshow that it tells us a lot about these people and their preparedness to manage an NHL team. Clearly there was a breakdown in communication between team and player, which may have resulted from expectations set by Fletcher that were not shared by Briere. It isn't necessarily Danny's fault for having to take an important conversation with a difficult player on just his 3rd day as a GM.

But rather than acting like professionals about it and fixing the relationship or just finding the best deal and moving on, they turned it into a media spectacle and marketing moment. It might have galvanized some of the fanbase, but they had the GM, President, and corporate CEO talking shit about a 19-year old on their broadcast. How does that look to prospective players?

Then there's the Johansen situation—where the player was reportedly willing to play for the team but was told not to bother and waived, and then claimed an injury. They just DOA'd an NHL veteran's career because their unfireable coach doesn't like him. Do you think these things go unnoticed throughout the NHLPA?

The idea that all of that may've prevented them from drafting Buium (the three share an agent) is just incredibly damning. Management is a diplomatic job. If you can't make it work with different players and agents who may have difficult personalities, and maintain a fair and neutral tone throughout, you shouldn't be in a management position. If your inability to manage those relationships is limiting your draft board, you should not be an NHL GM.

If the stated goal is to make Philly an attractive player destination again in order to get those mythical impact UFAs, it looks to me like they're doing an awful job of creating the perception of a competent, fair organization that knows what it is doing. And not only that...those impact UFAs almost never hit the market in this capped-out league. 95% of the stars sign long term with the teams that drafted them, which is why this conversation goes back to where it started: You need to build through the very top of the draft.

None of it adds up. I hope it does! I want them to be good! I want them to win! But from where I'm sitting, I don't see a management group that knows how to get there.

 

[deadhead]

You think that this management group in 26/27 is going to magically sign UFA's and or make trades to push this team to contention? This management group that can't even reach the low bar they've set now. Any players drafted in the next couple of years, are years away. Losing Hart was a blessing in disguise. Helps the team get a higher draft pick and kept the team from doing what they wouldn't be smart enough to not do. Sign an average goalie in Hart to a long term contract. There is zero chance this is a top tier team in 2027. Literally zero. If this team reaches the level of contention, it will be 5-10 years from now, Thinking they will be in 2027 is fan boy delusion. This team needs a legit #1 defenseman, another top tier defenseman, a #1C and a 2nd high quality top 6 center and it needs it's goaltending the vastly improve. To believe they can do that in two years, is illogical. It's just blind hope with you with no actual thought to what needs to happen.

Actually it's three years, but who's counting?

And yes, I think it can very easily be done, just take Danny Boy out to Highway 61.

1. If York - Sanheim aren't among the top ten D-pairs in the league, they're awfully close, minutes per game, xGF%, etc. Andrae, Bonk, Zamula, Drysdale, and whomever they draft this summer

2). Cates line, I think next year Couts - Frost - Michkov, Poehling may be a placeholder for Jett on a line with Tippett/TK. Again, Farabee, draft picks, they can add more talent.

Really comes down to experience and goalies.
Develop an above average goalie, add a couple solid starters, and they're a top 8 team in 3 years.
Michkov is a baby, a couple years filling out, adding a stride and learning to play NHL hockey and he'll be a star.

 

[MJL66]

Actually it's three years, but who's counting?

And yes, I think it can very easily be done, just take Danny Boy out to Highway 61.

1. If York - Sanheim aren't among the top ten D-pairs in the league, they're awfully close, minutes per game, xGF%, etc. Andrae, Bonk, Zamula, Drysdale, and whomever they draft this summer

2). Cates line, I think next year Couts - Frost - Michkov, Poehling may be a placeholder for Jett on a line with Tippett/TK. Again, Farabee, draft picks, they can add more talent.

Really comes down to experience and goalies.
Develop an above average goalie, add a couple solid starters, and they're a top 8 team in 3 years.
Michkov is a baby, a couple years filling out, adding a stride and learning to play NHL hockey and he'll be a star.

It's 2025. The 26/27 season is not 3 years away. If you think experience, an average goalie and a couple of solid starters will make them a legit contender. You're delusional. You're the type of fan the Flyers are targeting.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's 2025. The 26/27 season is not 3 years away. If you think experience, an average goalie and a couple of solid starters will make them a legit contender. You're delusional. You're the type of fan the Flyers are targeting.

I'm starting to ponder the option that the Flyers goal at this point is to grift off of suckers until there's no more money to suck dry, then sell or move the team. That's the most logical explanation for the team's actions that can be based on malice.

The most likely outcome is still basic incompetence rooted in cronyism and egomania. They're leaning so hard into the small rump of the fan base that's still engaged either to suck them dry, or because they want to appease the only group that still claps for them. Either way the result is the same so I guess it doesn't functionally matter.

 

[deadhead]

This might get long, because I want to be thorough about where my criticism and negativity comes from:

Goaltending may have cost them the playoffs last year. I'm not sure if them making it would have changed much—they would have been first round cannon fodder and would have dropped a few slots in the draft, but they'd have still been able to draft Luchanko at 18, so who knows. If anything, I think missing them actually decreased the pressure on management, because they'd have been in the same place this season either way.

But when I say I had hopes for Briere early on, I'm not judging him off of Fletcher's mistakes so much as his unwillingness to undo them and his behavior since taking the job. In terms of what we saw, I think he got off to a strong start with the Provorov trade. They did really well there, and I found that encouraging.

Everything after has been questionable. Someone offers you a 1st+ for Laughton (as was rumored in his first summer)? You take that deal. You wanna sign Konecny long-term? Fine, but why Tippett too? Are we building the first RW-only team? Why are we extending guys like Hathaway and Seeler before their deals end? Why are we letting the coach bury some younger middle-of-the-lineup talent? If they aren't going to be here for the long haul, why aren't we raising their value and then moving them? None of these things make sense to me.

The nail in the coffin for me was the Gauthier situation, which I am tired of rehashing, but was just such a blatant shitshow that it tells us a lot about these people and their preparedness to manage an NHL team. Clearly there was a breakdown in communication between team and player, which may have resulted from expectations set by Fletcher that were not shared by Briere. It isn't necessarily Danny's fault for having to take an important conversation with a difficult player on just his 3rd day as a GM.

But rather than acting like professionals about it and fixing the relationship or just finding the best deal and moving on, they turned it into a media spectacle and marketing moment. It might have galvanized some of the fanbase, but they had the GM, President, and corporate CEO talking shit about a 19-year old on their broadcast. How does that look to prospective players?

Then there's the Johansen situation—where the player was reportedly willing to play for the team but was told not to bother and waived, and then claimed an injury. They just DOA'd an NHL veteran's career because their unfireable coach doesn't like him. Do you think these things go unnoticed throughout the NHLPA?

The idea that all of that may've prevented them from drafting Buium (the three share an agent) is just incredibly damning. Management is a diplomatic job. If you can't make it work with different players and agents who may have difficult personalities, and maintain a fair and neutral tone throughout, you shouldn't be in a management position. If your inability to manage those relationships is limiting your draft board, you should not be an NHL GM.

If the stated goal is to make Philly an attractive player destination again in order to get those mythical impact UFAs, it looks to me like they're doing an awful job of creating the perception of a competent, fair organization that knows what it is doing. And not only that...those impact UFAs almost never hit the market in this capped-out league. 95% of the stars sign long term with the teams that drafted them, which is why this conversation goes back to where it started: You need to build through the very top of the draft.

None of it adds up. I hope it does! I want them to be good! I want them to win! But from where I'm sitting, I don't see a management group that knows how to get there.

No one knows what really happened with Gauthier, their anger wasn't so much hurt feelings but frustration b/c his people wouldn't even talk to them and let them try to rectify the situation. Which suggests the decision may have been made before Briere was even on the job - there are ways to make amends with bonus clauses, etc.

Johansen situation was simple, they took the salary dump but didn't want the player, he didn't want to play for them, he just didn't want to be bought out. Had he been claimed on waivers, he'd happily have gone to another team. The buyout would cost him 1/3 of the $4M remaining on his deal.

I doubt Buium was about either the agent (unless he scared 10 other teams), nor size (Buium is going to be 6'0 200+, when was that "small") but that the Flyers shared a general consensus that he's a better college player than he will be a pro one - or he'd have gone ahead of Parekh (same size), etc. Whether that judgement is right - check back in 3 years.

You need to build through the draft, being at the top helps, so does having more picks in the top 40-50. The odds are better at the top, but more picks also improves your odds. More high picks also means more depth, you not only need top 6/top 4 talent, you need to fill out the roster and have protection against injuries.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No one knows what really happened with Gauthier,

We know more than enough. Saying otherwise is feigning ignorance because it's the only way to defend the team.

their anger wasn't so much hurt feelings but frustration b/c his people wouldn't even talk to them and let them try to rectify the situation.

They made no serious attempt at this. We also know this for a fact. This has been laid out in detail repeatedly.

Which suggests the decision may have been made before Briere was even on the job

No it wasn't, no it doesn't.

Johansen situation was simple, they took the salary dump but didn't want the player, he didn't want to play for them

He did

I doubt Buium was about either the agent (unless he scared 10 other teams), nor size (Buium is going to be 6'0 200+, when was that "small")

They explicitly went out of their way to say it was about size.

but that the Flyers shared a general consensus that he's a better college player than he will be a pro one - or he'd have gone ahead of Parekh (same size), etc. Whether that judgement is right - check back in 3 years.

A consensus they shared with a series of other horribly managed and incompetent teams. This is the worst appeal to authority possible.

"How was I supposed to know that drinking bleach instead of taking tylenol wouldn't fix my headache? Sewer Joe who lives in a pile of shit in the city sewers and who attacks all children and wears a suit of tinfoil to keep the alien rays out of his body also does that! Just like Hooker-Stabber Greg! If they also do it then I must be justified in my assessment!"

You need to build through the draft, being at the top helps, so does having more picks in the top 40-50. The odds are better at the top, but more picks also improves your odds. More high picks also means more depth, you not only need top 6/top 4 talent, you need to fill out the roster and have protection against injuries.

Thank you for again explaining that you understand the basics of how building in the draft works and that you do get that you have to pick both high and often. Why did you recently pretend you didn't know that?

 

[MJL66]

No one knows what really happened with Gauthier, their anger wasn't so much hurt feelings but frustration b/c his people wouldn't even talk to them and let them try to rectify the situation. Which suggests the decision may have been made before Briere was even on the job - there are ways to make amends with bonus clauses, etc.

Johansen situation was simple, they took the salary dump but didn't want the player, he didn't want to play for them, he just didn't want to be bought out. Had he been claimed on waivers, he'd happily have gone to another team. The buyout would cost him 1/3 of the $4M remaining on his deal.

I doubt Buium was about either the agent (unless he scared 10 other teams), nor size (Buium is going to be 6'0 200+, when was that "small") but that the Flyers shared a general consensus that he's a better college player than he will be a pro one - or he'd have gone ahead of Parekh (same size), etc. Whether that judgement is right - check back in 3 years.

You need to build through the draft, being at the top helps, so does having more picks in the top 40-50. The odds are better at the top, but more picks also improves your odds. More high picks also means more depth, you not only need top 6/top 4 talent, you need to fill out the roster and have protection against injuries.

It's pretty obvious what happened in the Gauthier situation. He wanted to sign at the end of his NCAA season in the stretch of the NHL season to burn off the first year of his ELC. Like idiots, Briere and the Flyers said no. Then when the Flyers wanted to sign him in May for the following season. He told them to get bent. All they had to do was what every other team has done with high profile NCAA players and burn off the first year. If they did, Gauthier would be a Flyer today. It's incompetence. The most it could've been that late in the season is a 95K signing bonus. They laughably say they didn't want any bonus overages. Here is a thought. Waive and demote that stiff Deslauriers. Problem solved. The Flyers don't need depth. They have plenty of depth. They need high level elite players. The kind of players that drive every top team.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's pretty obvious what happened in the Gauthier situation. He wanted to sign at the end of his NCAA season in the stretch of the NHL season to burn off the first year of his ELC. Like idiots, Briere and the Flyers said no. Then when the Flyers wanted to sign him in May for the following season. He told them to get bent. All they had to do was what every other team has done with high profile NCAA players and burn off the first year. If they did, Gauthier would be a Flyer today. It's incompetence. The most it could've been that late in the season is a 95K signing bonus. They laughably say they didn't want any bonus overages. Here is a thought. Waive and demote that stiff Deslauriers. Problem solved. The Flyers don't need depth. They have plenty of depth. They need high level elite players. The kind of players that drive every top team.

They would rather finish in dead last in a year where they don't have a 1st rounder than ever, EVER, do anything that might accommodate an "entitled" young player by giving them a cookie they don't think they "earned." It's a hysteria on their part that has existed in Clarke his whole career (the guy who sets the culture of this thing) and which Hextall also promoted and made a core defining player-development value. The Olds running the team loved that. They kept it, just like they kept damned near everything he did.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

No one knows what really happened with Gauthier, their anger wasn't so much hurt feelings but frustration b/c his people wouldn't even talk to them and let them try to rectify the situation. Which suggests the decision may have been made before Briere was even on the job - there are ways to make amends with bonus clauses, etc.

Johansen situation was simple, they took the salary dump but didn't want the player, he didn't want to play for them, he just didn't want to be bought out. Had he been claimed on waivers, he'd happily have gone to another team. The buyout would cost him 1/3 of the $4M remaining on his deal.

I doubt Buium was about either the agent (unless he scared 10 other teams), nor size (Buium is going to be 6'0 200+, when was that "small") but that the Flyers shared a general consensus that he's a better college player than he will be a pro one - or he'd have gone ahead of Parekh (same size), etc. Whether that judgement is right - check back in 3 years.

You need to build through the draft, being at the top helps, so does having more picks in the top 40-50. The odds are better at the top, but more picks also improves your odds. More high picks also means more depth, you not only need top 6/top 4 talent, you need to fill out the roster and have protection against injuries.

Started off strong. The rest goes against what the start stated.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

It's pretty obvious what happened in the Gauthier situation. He wanted to sign at the end of his NCAA season in the stretch of the NHL season to burn off the first year of his ELC. Like idiots, Briere and the Flyers said no. Then when the Flyers wanted to sign him in May for the following season. He told them to get bent. All they had to do was what every other team has done with high profile NCAA players and burn off the first year. If they did, Gauthier would be a Flyer today. It's incompetence. The most it could've been that late in the season is a 95K signing bonus. They laughably say they didn't want any bonus overages. Here is a thought. Waive and demote that stiff Deslauriers. Problem solved. The Flyers don't need depth. They have plenty of depth. They need high level elite players. The kind of players that drive every top team.

why get rid of meat n potatos depth when you can offload youth/talent....

 

[Rich Nixon]

This is why I didn't want to rehash that situation...but my focus was more on how they handled it in the aftermath than on the likely reasons they got there. Using that as a way to sell tickets and make a villain/absolve themselves of criticism was as cynical and shortsighted as it gets, and told me they weren't serious about doing this right.