Nope. Florida won with an aggressive forecheck. Puck possession was a secondary effect of that.
I knew that would get a reaction (even if it is likely true)
GDT: #40 | Flyers at Leafs | Sunday, January 5, 2024 | 7:00 PM TONIGHT | NBCSP, 97.5 FM
- Thread starter Beef Invictus
- Start date
Both replies are incoherent and unintelligent. If we go by the standard of who can be a better GM than actual GM's, then there is no conversation. Nobody can prove that. Not is it a standard that anyone should be held to. Your reply is an absence of a reasonable argument.
JojoTheWhale
(9 Goals this season)
- May 22, 2008
- 37,656
- 115,545
What amount of LTIR space did you count and/or what date are you consummating the trade? Did you make other roster moves prior to using LTIR?
We could easily be having two different discussions here.
You're comment was that championships are won with team defense. No offense but you don't know the game of hockey very well.
None of that matters. Ellis is currently on IR, not LTIR. Tippett's salary combined with Ellis going on LTIR would give the Flyers more than enough to make that trade cap wise.
JojoTheWhale
(9 Goals this season)
- May 22, 2008
- 37,656
- 115,545
JojoTheWhale
(9 Goals this season)
- May 22, 2008
- 37,656
- 115,545
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
Huberdeau paced for 92 points in the 3 seasons prior. He was 7th in points and 13th in points/game BEFORE his career fluke season. You could debate some of his underlying numbers, but it was not some one-off. It’s also irrelevant because they sold high. I understand that’s a difficult concept when you believe Drysdale + Magical 2nd is an optimal return for Gauthier at his high water mark.
You’re deluding yourself if you think the Flyers trade a 115 point player they drafted. If a guy hits 40 points with intangibles, they give them a stake in the franchise. Which is why it was a ballsy trade by Florida.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
I didn't say Edmonton was the defensive team. Try reading, I guess?
I said Edmonton had the better defensive results. Among the fewest expected goals again, and fewest shots allowed per game. Due to offense.
Fantastic defensive results due to offense. Offensive control is the best defense because it eliminates the need to defend. Not having to defend is the best possible defense.
deadhead
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2014
- 52,268
- 22,735
Even the best puck possession offense allows the other team to have the puck 45% of the time.
And one way to get the puck on offense is to take it away on defense.
There's different modes of defense, Hakstol defense was based on having one scoring line and hoping to keep the other team from scoring the rest of the game, so it was ultra conservative.
NJ hires Keefe, trades for Markstrom and is playing much better defense. 5th in xGA/60 so far, 20th last season. Their offense is also improved, 2nd in xGF/60 from 5th last season. maybe playing defense doesn't hurt offense?
And one way to get the puck on offense is to take it away on defense.
There's different modes of defense, Hakstol defense was based on having one scoring line and hoping to keep the other team from scoring the rest of the game, so it was ultra conservative.
NJ hires Keefe, trades for Markstrom and is playing much better defense. 5th in xGA/60 so far, 20th last season. Their offense is also improved, 2nd in xGF/60 from 5th last season. maybe playing defense doesn't hurt offense?
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 57,731
- 47,035
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Correct. The kind of skill that leads to quick takeaways tends to correlate strongly with the kind of skill that causes offense.
This is vastly more effective than unskilled players plugging along endlessly along the boards. It's why all the sobbing about Karlsson not crushing guys in front of the net or on the glass made no sense, because he was very good at simply taking the puck and moving it. People pretended this was a bad result because he didn't achieve it via virtuous physical exertion.
freakydallas13
Registered User
Oh you can take away the puck from the attacking team? So what. One way to get the puck on offense is to take it away from their defence. Guess that means the opposite is also true.
And the best defensive teams still let the other team have the puck about half the time. You're just saying basic ass things to defend your "defence first narrative", they has no substance. You can swap "defence" for "offence" and your statements still work.
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 57,731
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Rich Nixon
No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
No, you're getting killed here even on just a basic debate level. Forget the right or wrong part, you're just consistently misinterpreting, running away from, or ignoring very simple, straightforward points. I mean, case in point: "bet you didn't play hockey." Well, even had I not, it would have no relevance to the conversation we were trying to have. It's just a dumb thing to say to distract from your inability to follow any thread from point A to point B.
It isn't negativity for negativity's sake: We're pointing out what essentially every other relevant team in the league has done to make themselves contenders and how the Flyers are refusing to do those things. Hope? Even if you do it right, you're still relying on hope. The point is to give yourself the most possible things to be hopeful about.
CerpinTaxt
Registered User
I respect that you think current management should get a fair shake, but you're ignoring what a debacle its been so far for DB and Jones. The Gauthier fiasco, abundance of talent left at the draft table, failure to accrue assets for players who won't fit a cup timeline, and outright lying to fans about being in a rebuild. Their signings have left a lot to be desired as well bringing in veteran retreads on D, and the baffling decision to reup Hathaway a year early it's all business as usual. The flyers have had the same manangment structure going on 11 years now overseen by advisors whove been in their roles some 30+ years. You're again being delusional if you think they are magically going to get things right with all the facts laid out in front of you.
ybnvs
Registered User
- Mar 20, 2014
- 2,494
- 4,391
From your lips to our eyes and god's ears, "The NHL is not a developmental league."
That is one philosophy. It doesn't work usually, but it is a philosophy used by some and has generated regular season success. It usually fails in the playoffs (eg. Toronto). Consider Cassidy in Vegas as the alternative since you don't like using Florida as the example. Only when these teams added top level defense did they get to the top level.
We obviously have a different view of what the base requires. We will not ever agree, that is obvious.
I deleted the first paragraph because you want to get personal and that's pointless. Give the insults a rest.
Now as to the second (above) there is no ONE WAY and there are many versions of how rebuilds work and don't work. For every success on a "plan" I can give you a team with the exact same "plan" that failed miserably. When I do that, the counter is to point out the differences and so the argument goes forever.
I see a pathway to long term success. You don't. The negativity crew doesn't. Fair enough. You guys want to dominate the conversation and high five the failures for your own self images. Okay, enjoy that. You won't put me off from seeing that pathway. It's real. Like it or not.
Amazing how much content a little positivity can create lol.
deadhead
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2014
- 52,268
- 22,735
Debacle? That's somewhat hyperbolic, don't you think?
Gauthier was a bad situation they inherited, but let's be honest, he's not exactly playing lights out, 40g 3-9 12 (ES), that's marginal 3rd line production from a guy who isn't known for defense or physical play. I'm sure he'll improve, but he's looking like a finesse version of Tippett. So getting Drysdale and a high 2nd isn't a bad return, especially since Drysdale is playing a lot better since he returned.
Hathaway is a nothing burger, basically resigned b/c they had no wings on the verge of the NHL last summer and wanted some veteran depth. Same as the veterans on short-term deals signed by every other rebuilding team. Seeler cost them what? a 4th rd pick. He's there to caddy young RHDs, his NTC expires next summer and if the kids are alright, he's gone.
The "abundance" of talent comes down to Buium. We'll see how he and Jett turn out in the NHL.
You got a problem with York (14), Foerster (23), Brink (34), Andrae (53), Michkov (7), the high picks under Flahr? Only miss so far in 1st & 2nd rds is Tuomaala, who can score but will need years to understand how to play off the puck.
Berglund made the Swedish team before he was hurt, and Ruohonen the Finnish squad.
I realize they are weaker squads than Canada, and weren't very competitive.
The best defenseman in the league are the players who quickly end rushes and offensive plays and quickly move the puck in the other direction and join in on the attack. There is certainly still a role for the defensive defenseman in the league. For a role players and situational hockey and a defenseman still has to defend well but the defenseman in the league who can tilt the ice to their teams side more, are the best defenseman in the league. No matter how well you defend, if that is all you do. As a player, you will be limited and as a team, you won't be very good. This is an offensive attack puck possession league. Not a defense first league, which is what our dinosaur of a coach thinks.
You're wrong, it does usually work. Not for every team but that is how every good team wins. It's time for you to leave the stone ages and move into the modern day NHL
You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.Debacle? That's somewhat hyperbolic, don't you think?
Gauthier was a bad situation they inherited, but let's be honest, he's not exactly playing lights out, 40g 3-9 12 (ES), that's marginal 3rd line production from a guy who isn't known for defense or physical play. I'm sure he'll improve, but he's looking like a finesse version of Tippett. So getting Drysdale and a high 2nd isn't a bad return, especially since Drysdale is playing a lot better since he returned.
Hathaway is a nothing burger, basically resigned b/c they had no wings on the verge of the NHL last summer and wanted some veteran depth. Same as the veterans on short-term deals signed by every other rebuilding team. Seeler cost them what? a 4th rd pick. He's there to caddy young RHDs, his NTC expires next summer and if the kids are alright, he's gone.
The "abundance" of talent comes down to Buium. We'll see how he and Jett turn out in the NHL.
You got a problem with York (14), Foerster (23), Brink (34), Andrae (53), Michkov (7), the high picks under Flahr? Only miss so far in 1st & 2nd rds is Tuomaala, who can score but will need years to understand how to play off the puck.
Berglund made the Swedish team before he was hurt, and Ruohonen the Finnish squad.
I realize they are weaker squads than Canada, and weren't very competitive.
Rich Nixon
No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
Nothing personal about what I said, I'm simply describing the nature of the interactions we've had in this thread. I think "I bet you didn't play hockey" is much closer to "personal" than "you're just consistently misinterpreting, running away from, or ignoring very simple, straightforward points." And neither particularly are.
The other part is that I covered—multiple times—why teams that never escape the bottom end up in that cycle, while you've provided exactly 0 examples of teams that managed to attain sustained contention without ever visiting the bottom. I'm totally open to hearing those. I like good, thoughtful conversations. I don't like evasiveness or bad faith.
I admire the positivity, but I haven't been given reason to share it. Circa ~5 years ago, I was in the "it isn't as bad as others here say it is/things might work out" camp. Hell, at the start of Briere's tenure I had some hope that he'd be a departure from the script and he might bring some honest, modern thinking to the table. But the franchise has beaten all that clean out of me.
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