GDT: #40 | Flyers at Leafs | Sunday, January 5, 2024 | 7:00 PM TONIGHT | NBCSP, 97.5 FM

[Rich Nixon]

I deleted the first paragraph because you want to get personal and that's pointless. Give the insults a rest.
Now as to the second (above) there is no ONE WAY and there are many versions of how rebuilds work and don't work. For every success on a "plan" I can give you a team with the exact same "plan" that failed miserably. When I do that, the counter is to point out the differences and so the argument goes forever.
I see a pathway to long term success. You don't. The negativity crew doesn't. Fair enough. You guys want to dominate the conversation and high five the failures for your own self images. Okay, enjoy that. You won't put me off from seeing that pathway. It's real. Like it or not.

Amazing how much content a little positivity can create lol.

Nothing personal about what I said, I'm simply describing the nature of the interactions we've had in this thread. I think "I bet you didn't play hockey" is much closer to "personal" than "you're just consistently misinterpreting, running away from, or ignoring very simple, straightforward points." And neither particularly are.

The other part is that I covered—multiple times—why teams that never escape the bottom end up in that cycle, while you've provided exactly 0 examples of teams that managed to attain sustained contention without ever visiting the bottom. I'm totally open to hearing those. I like good, thoughtful conversations. I don't like evasiveness or bad faith.

I admire the positivity, but I haven't been given reason to share it. Circa ~5 years ago, I was in the "it isn't as bad as others here say it is/things might work out" camp. Hell, at the start of Briere's tenure I had some hope that he'd be a departure from the script and he might bring some honest, modern thinking to the table. But the franchise has beaten all that clean out of me.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

THEY INHERITED?! It’s Briere’s own god damn doing!

P.S. The right hand man of the guy who drafted the guy that “isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire” at fifth overall is still HEAVILY empowered within this organization. That’s a MASSIVE indictment.

 

[MJL66]

THEY INHERITED?! It’s Briere’s own god damn doing!

P.S. The right hand man of the guy who drafted the guy that “isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire” at fifth overall is still HEAVILY empowered within this organization. That’s a MASSIVE indictment.

I don''t have an issue with drafting Gauthier. I think he's going to be a pretty good player.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I don''t have an issue with drafting Gauthier. I think he's going to be a pretty good player.

Which is fine and all but you can’t act as if he’s a nothing player and at the same time hype up the organization.

 

[MJL66]

Which is fine and all but you can’t act as if he’s a nothing player and at the same time hype up the organization.

Agreed

 

[deadhead]

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

You're incorrect on many levels. Gauthier wasn't a bad situation they inherited. It was a situation that the massively screwed up on. The Flyers could've gotten a decent asset for Hathaway and had a younger players such as Lycksell playing and developing. He doesn't belong on the team. I have a problem that Andrae, who in my opinion is the 3rd best defenseman on the team is in the minors.

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

 

[MJL66]

What kind of asset could they have gotten for Hathaway?
Show me the return on 4RWs who average 15-20 points. A 5th, maybe a 4th.

Briere took over in April, Gauthier pretty much had already made up his mind for whatever reasons.

Lycksell is a LH wing, who didn't show that much the year before, I watched him in LHV, and he looked like a AHL plus type. He improved over the summer, but you can't make roster decisions based on a marginal prospect taking a step up (Desnoyers was ahead of him two years ago but regressed, for example).

The reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula, who has been excellent the last 20 games or so, is out of options. And they weren't going to pair Andrae and Drysdale. So they want Andrae playing 20+ minutes a night in LHV rather than sit in Philly. He's in their plans.

Where do I begin. I think they could possibly get a 3rd for Hathaway. He is the kind of player that playoff teams like for depth and on the 4th line. Moving him also creates an open space for a younger player. This ties into Lycksell. He's shown he can hold his own in the NHL and should already have been given a consistent opportunity. The Flyers want to try and compete and favor that over player development. They refuse to create openings and are terrified of losing. Even when it's what is neccessary. You're also wrong that the reason Andrae is in the minors is Zamula. On a rebuilding team, both should be in the lineup. Again, they need their safety blankets with players like Seeler and Ristolainen. Both shouldn't be on the team.

Briere did not take over in April. He was named interim GM on March 10th 2023 and was named full time GM on May 11th 2023

 

[Beef Invictus]

That is one philosophy. It doesn't work usually, but it is a philosophy used by some and has generated regular season success. It usually fails in the playoffs (eg. Toronto). Consider Cassidy in Vegas as the alternative since you don't like using Florida as the example. Only when these teams added top level defense did they get to the top level.

We obviously have a different view of what the base requires. We will not ever agree, that is obvious.

It actually works brilliantly and is a major reason why the teams with the best defensive results in the league have those results.

Also, Toronto didn't just fail out of the playoffs due to poor defense. Their defense was actually pretty good. They lost because their offense died. You win by scoring goals and they didn't, so that's not a great counter example.

Your idea of a base is 25 years behind the sport. The dead puck era is well over.

 

[MJL66]

It actually works brilliantly and is a major reason why the teams with the best defensive results in the league have those results.

Also, Toronto didn't just fail out of the playoffs due to poor defense. Their defense was actually pretty good. They lost because their offense died. You win by scoring goals and they didn't, so that's not a great counter example.

Your idea of a base is 25 years behind the sport. The dead puck era is well over.

He's living in the stone ages and obviously does not understand the modern day NHL

 

[Boocowski]

You're wrong, it does usually work. Not for every team but that is how every good team wins. It's time for you to leave the stone ages and move into the modern day NHL

There are people that like to say that. The "modern day NHL" but the tough defensive teams keep winning cups and the soft flashy offensive teams keep having good regular seasons and playoff busts. Stoneage alive and well (literally in Vegas).

It actually works brilliantly and is a major reason why the teams with the best defensive results in the league have those results.

Also, Toronto didn't just fail out of the playoffs due to poor defense. Their defense was actually pretty good. They lost because their offense died. You win by scoring goals and they didn't, so that's not a great counter example.

Your idea of a base is 25 years behind the sport. The dead puck era is well over.

Ya it is a good counter. Boston and Florida both beat the Laughs by being tougher and better defensively. It's not a unique thing. Even Tampa, with a heap of talent, got beat down by a tough Columbus team. Then they added the toughness and defensive play they needed and won a couple cups. It's almost always the same.

 

[Boocowski]

I admire the positivity, but I haven't been given reason to share it. Circa ~5 years ago, I was in the "it isn't as bad as others here say it is/things might work out" camp. Hell, at the start of Briere's tenure I had some hope that he'd be a departure from the script and he might bring some honest, modern thinking to the table. But the franchise has beaten all that clean out of me.

To be clear, nowhere have I said the current team is any good. It's not.

Where we differ is that I see a pathway that leads to success and continued success after the 26/27 season. They might screw it up of course, but I can see a way it can work out well. I will not hold Briere or Jones to mistakes made by Fletcher or earlier. I find that just negativity for the sake of being negative. It's an easy "told you so" and it seems to revel in failure. I would not watch at all rather than live in that world.

Honestly imo the biggest thing that screwed this team was the Carter Hart situation. Goaltending has killed this team over the last few years more than anything else. The team loses confidence when those goalies suck as well. That's not say we'd win the cup or anything with good goaltending, but we'd probably have made the playoffs last year, we'd be in the hunt this year and things would just be more fun. As is, we have to be patient and hope they draft well, trade well, and then later sign some key pieces. All of that is very possible and so I believe in 2027 this will be a top tier team led by allstar Michkov.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There are people that like to say that. The "modern day NHL" but the tough defensive teams keep winning cups and the soft flashy offensive teams keep having good regular seasons and playoff busts. Stoneage alive and well (literally in Vegas).


Ya it is a good counter. Boston and Florida both beat the Laughs by being tougher and better defensively. It's not a unique thing. Even Tampa, with a heap of talent, got beat down by a tough Columbus team. Then they added the toughness and defensive play they needed and won a couple cups. It's almost always the same.

No, they outscored them. Using offense. This always seems to come as a surprise to some people, but every single hockey game that has been won has been won by the team that can score more. The best defensive team in the league rarely wins. Top offenses, however, do better when it matters. And when it comes to defensive results? Again, huge correlation between offensive ability and defensive results. When you're scoring, the other team isn't. That's good defense.

The team that scores more wins. Again, we have actual metrics to measure defense. The mythology that the Leafs are bad at defense because they're skilled fails every test.

Here, let's make this simple. One easy question. Is keeping the other team from being able to try to score on you good defense?

 

[MJL66]

There are people that like to say that. The "modern day NHL" but the tough defensive teams keep winning cups and the soft flashy offensive teams keep having good regular seasons and playoff busts. Stoneage alive and well (literally in Vegas).

That's just your uninformed take on it. It's really not the tough defensive teams that keep winning cups. It's the tough offensive teams. You just don't know what you're looking at.

 

[MJL66]

To be clear, nowhere have I said the current team is any good. It's not.

Where we differ is that I see a pathway that leads to success and continued success after the 26/27 season. They might screw it up of course, but I can see a way it can work out well. I will not hold Briere or Jones to mistakes made by Fletcher or earlier. I find that just negativity for the sake of being negative. It's an easy "told you so" and it seems to revel in failure. I would not watch at all rather than live in that world.

Honestly imo the biggest thing that screwed this team was the Carter Hart situation. Goaltending has killed this team over the last few years more than anything else. The team loses confidence when those goalies suck as well. That's not say we'd win the cup or anything with good goaltending, but we'd probably have made the playoffs last year, we'd be in the hunt this year and things would just be more fun. As is, we have to be patient and hope they draft well, trade well, and then later sign some key pieces. All of that is very possible and so I believe in 2027 this will be a top tier team led by allstar Michkov.

You think that this management group in 26/27 is going to magically sign UFA's and or make trades to push this team to contention? This management group that can't even reach the low bar they've set now. Any players drafted in the next couple of years, are years away. Losing Hart was a blessing in disguise. Helps the team get a higher draft pick and kept the team from doing what they wouldn't be smart enough to not do. Sign an average goalie in Hart to a long term contract. There is zero chance this is a top tier team in 2027. Literally zero. If this team reaches the level of contention, it will be 5-10 years from now, Thinking they will be in 2027 is fan boy delusion. This team needs a legit #1 defenseman, another top tier defenseman, a #1C and a 2nd high quality top 6 center and it needs it's goaltending the vastly improve. To believe they can do that in two years, is illogical. It's just blind hope with you with no actual thought to what needs to happen.