Post-Game Talk: #3 - 1/19/21 | Devils @ Rangers

[buckmaster]

I’d like to see some shuffled lines next game, just to see what we got.

Laf-Zibby-Buch
Panarin-Chytil-Kakko
Kreider-Strome-Gauthier
Lemieux-Howden-DiGi

I know it won’t happen but I can dream

That's some nice looking Lines...think you should email that to Mr Quinn

 

[Doriva]

Jack Johnson is a slow, weak, black hole. It's so baffling how we seem to insist on carrying at least one D man per year who's a net negative to the team, especially considering the amount of average replacement level D who were available this offseason for similar prices.
At this point I'm hoping and praying we get to see
Lindgren-Trouba
Miller-Fox
Smith-ADA



It's also super frustrating to me how we roll with 4 rightys on pp1 and 4 leftys on pp2, get Buch or Laf on PP 1 in place of Strome so we can have shooters from both sides of the ice.

 

[Mikos87]

Looked like Bread was being selective with who ends up with the puck at times. Punk the rookies off the ice or in practice, thought he limited himself and his teammates last night. Kreider had a good game after that tv timeout, showed good leadership after that timeout call.

Game of inches, a couple of unfocused moments and the devils made them pay. Lemme on the 1st goal, then played really well. Troubs on the shot block against.

Beiber outdid all of the Rangers last night. There wasn’t any deferential play from the 2019 1st overall pick, played like a rockstar out there. Strome looked a little bummed out. Play with that state of mind and you get treated like a bum online, such is the crux of the whipping boy.

 

[Mikos87]

Crack open few smelling salts before the first shifts, might get the boys a better start.

and pedialyte. If you’ve partied the day before, drink pedialyte the next morning. Give it shot if you haven’t, worth it.

 

[TC82]

Glad the coach is getting pointed out as being a problem. It’s been obvious for a long time that his structure is awful. I will say this too, the 2 out of 3 games have been plagued by poor goaltending. The first devils goal Georgie waffle boards his glove hand and allows a pathetic rebound that just can’t happen. I won’t lay that one on anyone but him. He’s got to catch the puck. One of the goals( I believe the 3rd but might have been the 4th) Trouba hits the defender right in front of him with a flip wrist shot from the point leading to Hughes breakaway. Anyone whose played D knows that the coach always preaches get your shot from the point passed the guy in front of you. If it’s blocked by the net fine but you can’t hit the guy directly in front of you. Worse part is Trouba had about 10 feet to dump the puck down into the corner. He’s making it a habit to shoot the puck into shin pads this year and it’s got to stop.

Quinn’s use of Alexis is not helping him already but Alexis needs to engadge defensively. Is obvious he has some terrible habits he’s learned from dominating junior days in terms of defending( glides around a lot, makes soft plays just to name a few.) Quinn’s hold accountable stance is nice in theory but when the guy is young and new to the league you can teach and give him ice time at key spots. Maybe that’s what he was trying to do but the allocation of ice time certainly remains confusing most games.

I get all the coach talk about needing to hustle back, play defense etc. but it shouldn't come at the expense of containing other (more obvious and with more upside) talent on these young guys. And that's exactly what Quinn is doing with Kakko and what he will probably end up doing with Lafreniere too. It's like they're told "don't you f**king dare make a mistake that costs us a goal or your ass is nailed on the bench". Kakko and Chytil have completely stopped challenging defenders and Lafreniere looks timid to do it too. So what are Quinn's intentions - outside of not wanting to lose his job due to rookies making mistakes? Fold every offensively gifted young player into the same mold of Brett Howden / Brendan Lemieux? And more importantly, is this what the organization wants? JD, Gorton?

 

[chosen]

Disagreed. Massively.

There's still a huge learning process for young players coming to the league. With some who come later, it might take them a couple of years.

If you enter the league after your draft or D+1, I'd say it takes about 3-4 years for you to become pretty much what you are as a player. With players who come in older, it might take less but even they are rarely ready NHL'ers in their rookie years.

Just speaking from a Finnish perspective. Laine is not the player he was in his rookie year. Rantanen, is not the player he was in his rookie year. Aho, is not the player who he was in his rookie year.

After all, there are not many McDavids who are top players from the beginning.

Laine and Rantanen were expected to be good NHLers and they are.

I'll ask you the same question. What does their success have to do with who their head coach was? Do you believe under Quinn they would be out of the league, like Lias? If so, what do you base that on and can you prove it?

 

[chosen]

I don’t blame Quinn entirely for what happened with Lias. I thought I made that clear by saying I was disappointed with the way Lias handled himself.

But you can’t tell me that, if you simulated Lias’s start to his career, 10 different times with 10 different coaches, the results would have been identical. No f***ing way.

A coach can have a huge impact on a young players development. Good and Bad. I give a shit load of credit to Quinn for being able to develop ADA into the player we saw last season.

I’m not confident we’ll see those results though with guys like Kakko and Gauthier. And that’s why I brought up the fact that players respond differently.

So, a coach can make kids better or worse?

And which coach doesn't this theory apply to?

 

[chosen]

In baseball, the manager means zero.

In basketball, the coach matters very little.

In football, a few coaches matter a little.

In hockey, a few coaches matter a little.

In all team sports, the ones who put together a team matters a lot, with luck playing a role, as well.

There are a few exceptions. In football, Belichick and Reid seem to matter. In hockey, Trotz seems to matter.

 

[Tob]

Slept on it and realized we have like the best power play we've ever had maybe like in forever. Elite all around offensive dynamo in Panarin. Zibanejad with the highest goals per game last season. Bradam Feetch at the point and Kreider as an elite net front body and tipster. Then we have a bunch of young highly hopeful top 6 forwards from each year in the draft in Fil, Kaapo, and Alexis who would succeed and boom as the 5th man on the power play in their confidence and point scoring. This is one of those situations where as a coach you have to let go of the pride and stubbornness of earning it or whatever the crap and just giving them an opportunity over a 3rd line center who probably won't be here next season. What's the difference between The Teaching Coach™ and Mike Babcock if we're doing stuff like this?

 

[Tob]

In baseball, the manager means zero.

In basketball, the coach matters very little.

In football, a few coaches matter a little.

In hockey, a few coaches matter a little.

In all team sports, the ones who put together a team matters a lot, with luck playing a role, as well.

God, we all went to bed, woke up, had breakfast, and you're still going?

 

[chosen]

God, we all went to bed, woke up, had breakfast, and you're still going?

I'm not God.

I slept a few minutes, three years ago.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Gorton needs to start catching a lot of shit. We traded a 2nd to open up cap space and used it on Strome and Jack Johnson. He hired Quinn. He continues to preside over this shit show where NONE of our top prospects are blossoming. The only one who is is Fox, a guy we traded for. And kind of ADA another guy we traded for (But who fails to take that leap defensively and keeps getting scratched for dumb shit so it's hard for me to say he's really developing). Then we make these absolutely imbecilic long terms mega deals for Trouba and Kreider? WTF!? Love Kreider but he wasn't worth that contract TWO or THREE years ago, let alone now (OK maybe three years ago). Trouba? Do we even f***ing scout these people or does our front office just see what points they produced lately? Do we trade for guys who fit our scheme? What even is our scheme? Is there any sort of shared vision or cooperation when it comes to assembling a roster? Or is it just put out young guys and cross your fingers they magically develop?

Chytil, Kravtsov, Lias, Hajek, Rykov, and now Kakko. A f***ing goddamn 2nd overall pick in the draft and he's f***ing stagnated if not outright regressing with us. Can someone explain to me why everyone here feels his skating is off and yet as far as I can tell this organization has done jack and shit to address it?

And wtf does this quinn guy do to maximize anyone's talents? What does he do to train them up and improve them? Why the f*** are we making the same stupid ass mistakes, coming out flat, f***ing up our line changes, etc. over and over?

Now Laf is getting benched for half a period too.

It's starting to feel like a dysfunctional organization that doesn't know wtf it's doing. The kind of place where we see bright young talents flat out quit on the organization, regress or stagnate at an alarming rate.

Whatever is going on, Gorton better get it to unf*** itself quick. Or no...that's the problem. He seems to be crossing his fingers in the hopes that it unf***s itself. But that's not how good franchises are run. You're supposed to have a cohesive structure in place and then use that structure to help bring along new guys and keep the older guys going

.

Relax you’re overreacting lol

 

[GigaChad]

I don't usually like to criticize coaches because what the f##k do I know about coaching but why do you bench Kakko and Laf?
Both were playing very well, especially Kakko and then you sit him. Why?
What is Gallant's number?

 

[kovazub94]

I took a couple of things out of the game tonight.

1. Lemieux is a gamer. I thought he made a lot of important contributions tonight.

2. Miller is coming fast. Very good sign.

3. Trouba is quickly becoming this year’s Mark Staal (even though he didn’t play as bad as some think)

4. This game was probably lost at :32 of the first period with a horrid defensive change. The Rangers had to chase the game all night.

1. It was Lemieux best game as a Ranger. Di Giuseppe was excellent too - outside of Kakko bottom-6 exceeded expectations

2. Trouba needs to sit the next game, 2 bad games out of 3 is not going to cut it.

3. ADA probably would not help if he was in the lineup this game.

4. Devils goalie ultimately was the difference as the Rangers were able to put 50 SOG.

 

[Ola]

A few thoughts:

1. Get Strome of the top PP. Kakko and Laf getting zero PP time? Don't like that. And if anything -- Buch should be playing in that spot. And what is Howden doing on the PP?

2. TDA better be extremely good when he gets back. Or what has DQ been betting on? His actions must pay off in some way.

3. A serious issue we have is lack of balance on lines. A shortage of responsible smart players. We give up oceans of ice very often. Fast is dearly missed. Howden has a big role but doesn't have the brains for it. He should be a winger. He got galloping legs, what else? Gauthier isn't a responsible smart player. He struggles with being a physical players. Lemieux isn't a responsible smart player. Who is supposed to cover for the talent we have?

DQ is behind these changes as much as anyone. The standard reply is always, we don't know that. But we do. Renny got one type of players. Torts got another type of players. AV got a third type of players. DQ gets a 4th type of players. Its not like these depth moves aren't made without consulting the coach. Also action speaks louder than words. DQ has been super high on Howden from Day 1, who doesn't have any hockey sense, and never had anything good to say about Lias who was all about smarts. DQ played a Smith at forward who surely could create some havoc, but he less than zero ability to understand how a forward line should play the game. DQ was fine by that.

4. Fox was over 25 min. Its too much for him.

5. Why was Geo starting today? It seems like I am just pulling straws to come up with ways to be negative against DQ. But this is something I have had an issue against for a long time. The goal should be stability. Stability. Stability. Constantly playing someone until they drop doesn't give you stability.

I remember when Hank was young. Shanahan really took exception with how he believed that Hank felt that he could give up when he played like crap. Expect to be pulled. Being pulled or replaced is the opposite of being held accountable. You can't expect to be be "bailed out". Ever.

Being sat out, benched, yanked from the action, that is not about being held accountable. Being held accountable is about getting back on the ice again and delivering. That is the ultimate test.

 

[Ola]

2. Trouba needs to sit the next game, 2 bad games out of 3 is not going to cut it.

In relation to this, I do think its a petty that MSG doesn't have more of a hockey oriented approach instead of a delivering a pretty production point of view.

A real expert could have drawn the crap out of how we play right now. We face teams that have 3 guys between the two bluelines and we have two, that have to change on the fly too. The Ds are really hanged out to dry.

To some extent Ziba/Strome/Chytil and Howden are all to blame. But Ziba I can at least excuse the most because he is the most defensively responsible of the 4 by far and he delivers offensively. Strome is a misfit defensively, don't drive the puck up ice. Chytil is struggling trying to find a balance between creating any offense and being responsible defensively. He isn't there quite yet. Howden is all over the place. I recon Kreider and Buch are OK. But Panarin/Laf, Kakko/Gauthier and even Lemieux aren't.

 

[LOFIN]

Laine and Rantanen were expected to be good NHLers and they are.

I'll ask you the same question. What does their success have to do with who their head coach was? Do you believe under Quinn they would be out of the league, like Lias? If so, what do you base that on and can you prove it?

Are you kidding me? I watched Laine very closely during his rookie season. He was worse without the puck than Kakko has been through his time in the NHL. Yet he played in the first line and first PP unit for his whole rookie season. Only in the second and third season did Maurice drop him down to learn to play without the puck. Mind you, this was a drop to the 2nd line, still #1 PP unit.

With Rantanen, his first NHL season was sheltered minutes in the 3rd line with PP time. After that, it was always with MacKinnon. Only in his 3rd year, did Bednar start to play him without MacKinnon, and that was in the playoffs. And because Rantanen was that good.

So yes, the coaching does matter IMO. Generational players flourish against all the odds, players like McDavid. For the rest, I think you need to put them into positions to succeed and learn. The problem with Quinn is that he's fighting for his job because some people are expecting us to be competetive already. And I get it, it's a high threshold to put Kakko and Lafreniere on instead of Buch, Kreider, Panarin etc. But this f***ery with PP for an example units is inexcusable.

 

[Ola]

Just saying, there is of course -- and will always be -- defensive breakdowns from the defenders. But we are leaving glaring holes constantly on defense and we are a team that is really easy to play against, and the reason for -- that -- aren't the defenders.

 

[The S5]

Team looked flat, even when they started to control play.
I know ADA isn't the greatest defender, but he is great at jumping into the offense and opening up options. We just aren't finding players open in good scoring areas, unless its Strome, who is not looking very good. My thought watching him last night was, "a place where offense goes to die".
They must have shot the puck into other players 40 times last night. They need to have some more poise and not just fire into a crowd. Slip past the first defender who commits to the block, make plays!
I've been on the Fox train since watching him in his first rookie camp with Carolina. He is clearly our best defender and looks every bit like a top 10 D in the NHL.
I am really perplexed at all of the players we have that came in with tons of talent and promise, but can't seem to put it together. I'm not expecting 18 and 19 year old kids to step in and dominate, but I would like to see a bit more from the youngsters. Something that leaves me with the impression that they are going to be studs when they grow up.
Also, why all the complaining about Howden? What are the expectations from a fourth line center?
Final thought, Trouba is half the player Marc Staal was in this prime.

 

[TC82]

Are you kidding me? I watched Laine very closely during his rookie season. He was worse without the puck than Kakko has been through his time in the NHL. Yet he played in the first line and first PP unit for his whole rookie season. Only in the second and third season did Maurice drop him down to learn to play without the puck. Mind you, this was a drop to the 2nd line, still #1 PP unit.

With Rantanen, his first NHL season was sheltered minutes in the 3rd line with PP time. After that, it was always with MacKinnon. Only in his 3rd year, did Bednar start to play him without MacKinnon, and that was in the playoffs. And because Rantanen was that good.

So yes, the coaching does matter IMO. Generational players flourish against all the odds, players like McDavid. For the rest, I think you need to put them into positions to succeed and learn. The problem with Quinn is that he's fighting for his job because some people are expecting us to be competetive already. And I get it, it's a high threshold to put Kakko and Lafreniere on instead of Buch, Kreider, Panarin etc. But this f***ery with PP for an example units is inexcusable.

Good point. Also Laine is an exceptional goal scorer with possibly the best shot in the league after Ovechkin. He didn't play any defense his first 2 years, but the Jets coaching staff didn't really
care, because they knew that the moment they got on the PP, he would score or at least shoot the puck 7 times. It wasn't until teams learned to take his shot away that he had to concentrate on improving other things in his game. Also his Fortnite addiction didn't help. But that's how he built up his confidence and knew that even though I have short-comings in my game and must work on them, the coaching staff trusts me and uses me to my strengths (PP).

 

[Kovalev27]

Georgie is a backup not a 1b. He can get up for one game and that’s it. That’s how he should be used. Stop thinking he can string together multiple solid games that’s not who he is.

I don’t know how much longer strome is going to get the benefit of the doubt over a stud like Chytil who continues to improve. But at some point enough is enough. The Rangers didn’t even want strome and then they give him 2 years? Why? I would have walked away.

Let Laf play on the third line with Strome and Digiuseppe. Get his feet wet on his natural side. No pressure. Move kakko and Chytil up into the top 6

 

[IDvsEGO]

In relation to this, I do think its a petty that MSG doesn't have more of a hockey oriented approach instead of a delivering a pretty production point of view.

A real expert could have drawn the crap out of how we play right now. We face teams that have 3 guys between the two bluelines and we have two, that have to change on the fly too. The Ds are really hanged out to dry.

To some extent Ziba/Strome/Chytil and Howden are all to blame. But Ziba I can at least excuse the most because he is the most defensively responsible of the 4 by far and he delivers offensively. Strome is a misfit defensively, don't drive the puck up ice. Chytil is struggling trying to find a balance between creating any offense and being responsible defensively. He isn't there quite yet. Howden is all over the place. I recon Kreider and Buch are OK. But Panarin/Laf, Kakko/Gauthier and even Lemieux aren't.

1. It was Lemieux best game as a Ranger. Di Giuseppe was excellent too - outside of Kakko bottom-6 exceeded expectations

2. Trouba needs to sit the next game, 2 bad games out of 3 is not going to cut it.

3. ADA probably would not help if he was in the lineup this game.

4. Devils goalie ultimately was the difference as the Rangers were able to put 50 SOG.

Trouba didnt play poorly, as much as you'd think from some of his bigger mistakes. The worst thing he did was the bad change that led to the first goal.
50 shots on goal sounds great, until you think about how many were weak, ineffectual shots. sure 50 high danger shots are fantastic, but thats not what we did. Considering our lack of faceoff wins, weak shots hurt us more than you'd think. A bad shot and a faceoff loss is literally a loss of possession.

as for ADA not helping, for his defensive lapses ADA thrives in the transition game, and thats where we really struggled with at times last night.

 

[will1066]

Trouba didnt play poorly, as much as you'd think from some of his bigger mistakes. The worst thing he did was the bad change that led to the first goal.
50 shots on goal sounds great, until you think about how many were weak, ineffectual shots. sure 50 high danger shots are fantastic, but thats not what we did. Considering our lack of faceoff wins, weak shots hurt us more than you'd think. A bad shot and a faceoff loss is literally a loss of possession.

as for ADA not helping, for his defensive lapses ADA thrives in the transition game, and thats where we really struggled with at times last night.

Trouba also lost the puck on a blue line fumble that led to Hughes' goal.

 

[LOFIN]

Good point. Also Laine is an exceptional goal scorer with possibly the best shot in the league after Ovechkin. He didn't play any defense his first 2 years, but the Jets coaching staff didn't really
care, because they knew that the moment they got on the PP, he would score or at least shoot the puck 7 times. It wasn't until teams learned to take his shot away that he had to concentrate on improving other things in his game. Also his Fortnite addiction didn't help. But that's how he built up his confidence and knew that even though I have short-comings in my game and must work on them, the coaching staff trusts me and uses me to my strengths (PP).

The key word here is trust. I get it, the wings are stacked. You are not going to put Kakko on over Panarin, Buchnevich, Kreider or even Lafreniere at this point. What's worrying me, is how our rookies are treated when they try something and make a mistake. Kakko used to drive the play, now he is just static. Why? Because if you lose the puck, you lose your ice time. That's how it is with Quinn. Zero opportunities to try stuff and naturally make mistakes. And you can see how Quinn loves to promote guys like Howden and Lemieux, because all they do is dump and chase. Hard to make mistakes doing that, but it shows the effort and that's what matters to Quinn it seems.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Trouba also lost the puck on a blue line fumble that led to Hughes' goal.

I thought Trouba had a poor game probably highlighted by 2-3 major mistakes, but he led the team in expected goals by a comfortable margin. Make of that what you will.