Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[SEALBound]

Id still try to move Bunting even though I like him. He isn't that expensive of a depth forward at 4.5. Especially with the cap going up a lot this summer. I would actually try to move Petts at full value and retain on bunting.

Bunting has as many points in the past 3 seasons as someone like Lindholm. If you retained 50% you might be able to get a first for him. He would be a great deal for a contender at 2.25 for 2 years. I don't think there is anyway you get first even with retention for petts.

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Why does Bunting need to rebound? He is on pace for almost 50pts and 25goals. That his norm and also reasonable for his contract

Yeah that's a good point. I really wish we didn't have to retain on the corpse of Petry. Having an extra retention slot would be nice (or two). It would mean that you likely have to take cap back in a Pettersson or Bunting deal though. Not the end of the world but then you get into the territory of "is the juice worth the squeeze?" between this year or next. I'd feel better about trading him out if I knew we had an internal replacement for him that is not named Nieto, Hayes, Acciari, Puljujarvi, etc.

Speaking of Boston, I think they are going to get a good price on Frederic at the TDL so Bunting could be an attractive option, especially if Marchand gets trades or retires. I think Bunting also that's that Boston-mentality level of hockey too. If you really want to get wild, you could offer a Bunting for Lindholm+ deal. I don't think it's a stretch to say it hasn't worked out for him so it could be a chance to erase it. Meanwhile, Lindholm comes in at 2C with Malkin on his wing. Then he's our 1/2C through the rebuild.

Why does Bunting need to rebound? He is on pace for almost 50pts and 25goals. That his norm and also reasonable for his contract

No, I was replying to Emp who said Bunting's value could tank if he has to playing with Hayes at 2C (if Malkin is out for the year). I was saying, that if you keep him and his play does drop, he still likely rebound next year back to his norm.

As is, he doesn't need to rebound. I would even suggest that, given his history and contract, his value might be at an all time high right now. Or slightly more if he finishes the year strong and a team wants an off-season deal.

 

[The Old Master]

dang it there are 6 teams with worse records then ours, tank harder boys come on!

hard to believe, but in sully i trust.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Edmonton sticks out as an obvious fit. They have the cap space with Kane on LTIR and almost definitely want to add a defensively sound D at the deadline. I think they'd prefer a RD but Pettersson is also exactly what they need.

Pettersson to Edmonton for St. Louis's 2nd (from the Broberg offersheet) and Akey seems like a good guess for what a MP trade could look like. The 2nd will be about the same that they got for Guentzel last year and Akey is another Koivunen/Ponomarev caliber prospect.

The Oilers probably don't do it but I could see Dubas trying to push for Savoie for MP straight up. Dubas has talked alot about getting young players so Im not sure if they'll be getting a 2nd back in the deal. Probably an NHL ready player and a mid round pick

 

[Ulf5]

Malkin could have Rust or Rakell. There is not reason they have to keep all 3.

Could always bring someone else in on a separate deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Oilers probably don't do it but I could see Dubas trying to push for Savoie for MP straight up. Dubas has talked alot about getting young players so Im not sure if they'll be getting a 2nd back in the deal. Probably an NHL ready player and a mid round pick

I can't see Edmonton trading Savoie for a rental. Just can't see it.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Can we not blame one of the best players to ever play the game that won 3 cups with us about why we suck now?

With the cap going up I can see a lot of teams looking at Bunting as a solid choice for 1.5 seasons.

Petterson I think most likely goes to Edmonton.
There's a thread in trade rumors about a #4 going to Winnipeg. I do believes Petts is more of a #3 but I could see them looking at him as a rental. I think he has a 8 team trade list but if looking to go to a winner either team may be a big option.

I know if I was a middle pair D looking to get 6+ million a year I'd go anywhere for a few months. A good playoffs may even increase his overall pay by a few million total.

DOC for a 3rd any playoff team. Maybe even Colorado.
If Malkin is out a long time I could even see Dubas facilitate a Casey Mittelstadt trade somehow. Buy low (yea I know)

BEauvillier for some random pick

Karlsson is this summer I hope.

That might be all we can do this year. I think Posters above are right. Rakell probably won't be moved even though it would be the right move.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Can we not blame one of the best players to ever play the game that won 3 cups with us about why we suck now?

I didn't say anything about Kunitz?

 

[Jacob]

Is everyone in agreement that the ask for Pettersson starts with a 2nd? Maybe let teams outbid eachother by who is willing to add an additional pick, like maybe a 5th or even 4th.

Or maybe if a team has someone else's 2nd that's likely to be higher (like Edmonton has St. Louis's) then we go with whoever has the higher 2nd.

 

[SEALBound]

I didn't say anything about Kunitz?

He won 4.

 

[pistolpete11]

Amazing, time to celebrate the top 5 pick we got out of the trade, the hard work is done.

Oh, so Sid's negotiating the trades, too?

It wouldn't be the mark of a leader; but it'd be honest. It's what Jágr does every single press conference here and I've come around to respecting him for it, because he's not a leader. It's what Ovie does. It's more honest than lying to yourself and the team that we're juuuuust out of playoff contention and a few more bounces and we'll make it in. It's more honest than saying "we just didn't execute enough" for the millionth time. I know he's not going to do it. That doesn't mean it isn't worth doing, the same way that Sullivan having aging stars doesn't absolve him of his coaching decisions.

Again, I don't get the need to hear him say it. Who gives a shit? It's clearly happening regardless of what he says to the media. You really care about him being 'honest'? How's that change anything?

I dunno why that's such a hard thing to say here. Yinz are free to canonize Sid, I've got no beef with it. I still like him as a Pen, he's not my all-time favorite or anything, but it's been an honor to have him. But this myth of him being totally selfless takes a hit in my eyes the longer the team continues to stay the course because of this inability to upset him that seems to be everywhere.

This is made up, though.

They aren't staying the course. They are rebuilding.

They are also making moves that I've been told would upset him like trading Guentzel.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Anyone blaming Sid for having any role in the current state of the Penguins is in denial.

This was always what the end was going to look like. It's what it always looks like.

Lemieux didn't make the playoffs in his final four seasons. Jagr missed the playoffs in four of his final five NHL seasons. Even Gretzky missed the playoffs his last two years.

No one is holding anyone hostage. The rebuilding has already begun.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Mad Dubas wasn't able to pull this off. He may not be much but they need as many NHL caliber LD as possible.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Is everyone in agreement that the ask for Pettersson starts with a 2nd? Maybe let teams outbid eachother by who is willing to add an additional pick, like maybe a 5th or even 4th.

Or maybe if a team has someone else's 2nd that's likely to be higher (like Edmonton has St. Louis's) then we go with whoever has the higher 2nd.

My expectation is that theyll take a hit on the pick to get a more NHL ready prospect. Im expecting something like a 4th + AHL prospect ready to be called up

 

[Pancakes]

Anyone blaming Sid for having any role in the current state of the Penguins is in denial.

This was always what the end was going to look like. It's what it always looks like.

Lemieux didn't make the playoffs in his final four seasons. Jagr missed the playoffs in four of his final five NHL seasons. Even Gretzky missed the playoffs his last two years.

No one is holding anyone hostage. The rebuilding has already begun.

I just think it's an unreasonable ask as well. No player is going to ask the GM to trade their friends away and start a rebuild. That's not gonna happen.

It's also an irrelevant topic anyways because the Pens appear to be bad enough to be picking top 10 even with Sid healthy and in the lineup so I mean the people who want the Pens to be bad are getting their wish anyways.

Is everyone in agreement that the ask for Pettersson starts with a 2nd? Maybe let teams outbid eachother by who is willing to add an additional pick, like maybe a 5th or even 4th.

Or maybe if a team has someone else's 2nd that's likely to be higher (like Edmonton has St. Louis's) then we go with whoever has the higher 2nd.

I feel like Dubas might be able to squeeze out a first if teams are desperate enough for defense but we'll have to see how that plays out.

I'd almost ask for a first right now if I were him. He can always lower his demands if nobody is biting at the deadline. But why start the bidding low? Tell people if they meet his price he'll trade him right now.

 

[Jacob]

My expectation is that theyll take a hit on the pick to get a more NHL ready prospect. Im expecting something like a 4th + AHL prospect ready to be called up

Yeah, I hope they don't.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Yeah, I hope they don't.

Yeah id much rather maximize the pick. Unfortunately Lebrun and then Dubas himself have stated that they want young players. prospects and picks in that order of preference.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Pettersson's value is a mid 2nd and a B prospect on par with Koivunen. That's why I think Akey and St. Louis' 2nd is a pretty fair estimate for what he'd bring back.

That said, if a team has a late 2nd I wonder if the Penguins could get a conditional 1st instead. Something like a 2nd that turns into a 1st if the team makes the conference finals as the pick Pettersson is getting back.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah id much rather maximize the pick. Unfortunately Lebrun and then Dubas himself have stated that they want young players. prospects and picks in that order of preference.

I think it's important to break down what that means as well. Way too often, people fetishizes what a prospect is because they have wild fantasies about realistic potential and unrealized hidden potential. We all want that franchise player that was taken in the 2nd or 3rd round while ignoring that fact that 50% or more won't even make it to the NHL level. All the while, they scoff at a young roster player who has shown the ability to play in the NHL and stick in some capacity.

A good example would be Glass vs Ponomarov vs say, a 3rd-round pick, which is probably each player's value. Dubas (in this case) wants Glass, who has played 187 games in the NHL, vs Pono, who played 2. From a fundamental, rational POV, Glass is the better bet to be a contributor to the NHL roster sooner than Pono, which is the priority right now. If Pono's potential was that much higher, there would be a discernable difference in value.

What he might be trading in the potential for the pick, he is getting back in proven ability. Its the "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush thing". The pick is such a wild card, especially at the level we are talking. After about 10OV, it starts to be a crap shoot. The further down the list they go, the longer it will likely take for them to develop and be a productive NHL player. Again, not the priority. So it makes sense why Dubas wants things in that order.

On the prospect vs pick front, look at the Guentzel trade. I'm sure there would be better responses to the trade if it was Bunting+2024 2nd+2025 2nd+2026 2nd+2024 4th vs Koiv+Pono+Cruz. But given that they were taken in the 2nd, 2nd, and 4th rounds respectively, all Dubas did was exchange the potential of said picks for 3 guys who are 2 years further down the road than undrafted players. You want and hope your 2nds and a 4th to be where those guys are currently at. So it's not hard to see why Dubas prioritizes prospects over picks in that case. It's why I'd rather the Pettersson return be Pettersson/Mynio+2nd or Akey+2nd vs 2 2nds or a 2nd+3rd. The focus is Pettersson/Mynio/Akey. The 2nd is a nice lottery ticket to add for later.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sid doesn't need to explicitly walk into Dubas' office or phone FSG's villain lair to demand Sully be fired. He just needs to casually mention that he thinks the system needs to be changed or the approach is wrong. That would either make Sullivan change his ways, or the team would fire his ass immediately.

And yeah, it's Dubas' job to fire the coach that's been a failure for close to a decade. It's FSG's responsibility as owners to be like "Hey maybe hanging onto the victories of yesteryear as evidence a guy is still the right one for the job isn't correct", but they're not doing that and Sid has both the ability and opportunity to save the franchise from itself by piping up. But Sid's a fanatical creature of habit so he'd likely rather stick to his comfort zone of things going as expected than rock the boat and break ground on a new direction for the franchise as he's walking off into his retirement sunset.

I dunno. I get why HSL's annoyed, I am too, I'm in the same boat. I also understand and agree with the fact that the organization shouldn't be so f***ing dysfunctional that the franchise legend needs to speak up to get the ball moving by doing something that's not his job to do. But, as it stands, he does, because everything operates through the scope of "Don't annoy Sid, cannot annoy Sid" and the team's petrified into indecision because of that.

Also Jake made the decision for them. So before the whole "This team traded his best winger and friend Jake, they're not walking on eggshells around Sid, man!" bullshit starts, lemme get out in front of everything there. Jake chose to leave, and the team had no choice but to move him or let him walk for nothing. He recognized this team's been dead in the water and steadily getting worse for years, and he knew they weren't going to/couldn't hand him that colossal retirement contract, so he did what was right for his career (and the team tbh) and stood his ground.

-edit- This is a whole buncha words to say: Sid shouldn't have to be the catalyst for change, but because of how stupid and dysfunctional this loser ass organization is, he actually does have to be the catalyst for change. Until then, we're in continued suspended animation until Sid gets his final Olympics and retires after 2027.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Malkin doesn't need to go to to LTIR. But the Pens could use that to screw with their cap and take on a bad contract for prospect(s)/pick(s).

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah I would have thought the whole “Crosby calls the shots around here” thing would die when they traded Guentzel for a pile of shit.

I think some of you are just f***ing bored.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rossi said that Malkin didn't have a worst case scenario knee injury and will only be out for a few weeks. Think it's like a 2-4 week MCL sprain if I had to guess.

 

[SEALBound]

Sid doesn't need to explicitly walk into Dubas' office or phone FSG's villain lair to demand Sully be fired. He just needs to casually mention that he thinks the system needs to be changed or the approach is wrong. That would either make Sullivan change his ways, or the team would fire his ass immediately.

And yeah, it's Dubas' job to fire the coach that's been a failure for close to a decade. It's FSG's responsibility as owners to be like "Hey maybe hanging onto the victories of yesteryear as evidence a guy is still the right one for the job isn't correct", but they're not doing that and Sid has both the ability and opportunity to save the franchise from itself by piping up. But Sid's a fanatical creature of habit so he'd likely rather stick to his comfort zone of things going as expected than rock the boat and break ground on a new direction for the franchise as he's walking off into his retirement sunset.

I dunno. I get why HSL's annoyed, I am too, I'm in the same boat. I also understand and agree with the fact that the organization shouldn't be so f***ing dysfunctional that the franchise legend needs to speak up to get the ball moving by doing something that's not his job to do. But, as it stands, he does, because everything operates through the scope of "Don't annoy Sid, cannot annoy Sid" and the team's petrified into indecision because of that.

Also Jake made the decision for them. So before the whole "This team traded his best winger and friend Jake, they're not walking on eggshells around Sid, man!" bullshit starts, lemme get out in front of everything there. Jake chose to leave, and the team had no choice but to move him or let him walk for nothing. He recognized this team's been dead in the water and steadily getting worse for years, and he knew they weren't going to/couldn't hand him that colossal retirement contract, so he did what was right for his career (and the team tbh) and stood his ground.

-edit- This is a whole buncha words to say: Sid shouldn't have to be the catalyst for change, but because of how stupid and dysfunctional this loser ass organization is, he actually does have to be the catalyst for change. Until then, we're in continued suspended animation until Sid gets his final Olympics and retires after 2027.

I think a lot of people are chasing demons though. I think a lot of people who are upset are merely upset because they are inventing or projecting narratives on to Dubas, Sid, and FSG in a manner that paints them in the worst possible light (which would conveniently fit their agenda).

Dubas, FSG, and Sid (and you can lump Sullivan in there) are not unaware of the current situation, the pros, cons, and the "best" routes vs available routes to take the organization down. The problem is, it's an incredibly tricky balance to maintain or even achieve.

No trade is going to make Sid, Geno, and Letang 25 again. They know they are end the extreme end of their window. There's a slit open that is razor-thin only because you can never really count Crosby out. It's matter of "how do we balance responsibilities most effectively." Inside of that are current and future legacy relationship-building efforts with Sid. The franchise WANTS Sid to be here and to retire here. Both the organization and Crosby find value in that. The awkwardness that comes with that is, how bad or mediocre will the team be until he retires how do you best position yourself in the meantime. We know this to be true because that is an accurate depiction of everything Dubas has done since the Guentzel trade discussions began.

 

[Gurglesons]

if Dubas is trying to needle that thread the last two years are a perfect example of why I seriously doubt him ever making a contender out of us.

 

[K Fleur]

Crosby will have had the same cap hit from the time the salary cap was 58.9m to it pushing 100m by the time his next deal runs out. That he’s out there at 37 skating around with dorks like Beauviller and DOC is just incredible.

Our most dynamic winger is f***ing Rickard Rakell. No team is going anywhere built like that.