Boston Bruins 24-25 Roster/Cap thread IV

[MarchysNoseKnows]

BTW I agree with you 100% about Adam Fox. I've seen a lot of him. He's a train wreck as a defender.

Come on. Hes a very, very good player. I’d take McAvoy over him (unlike people here who want to put McAvoy in the 20s or something) but Fox is an elite all around defenseman.

 

[mjhfb]

Personally I don't care if they ever create separate trophies for defensive and offensive D,
Just please don't insult Orr by naming the offensive trophy after him. I watched him check, block shots face first without a helmet, even fight, and to insinuate that he was just offensive would be wrong.

 

[BMC]

Including your avatar?

And you call yourself a Bruins fan? lol

What's so funny? By the time Coffey came to the Bruins he was cooked. To me he'll always be an Oiler.

 

[Aussie Bruin]

I think people around here underrate what nhl players think of Hampus Lindholm. Didn’t an Av just say mcavoy-Lindholm is the best pair in hockey?

And yet we have people saying they’re both slotted incorrectly and that it must be all bruins fans voting. Maybe just maybe not everything is as bad or negative as we think it is….

If McAvoy and Lindholm are so great together, why did Monty prefer Hampus with Carlo, with his time with Charlie being very much a distant second? You can argue balance, spreading talent or whatever, but if they were really that good together surely you're rolling with it as much as possible and you just deal with the rest as best you can. Besides, while the players of course know more than us mere fans, they're not always right. An Av sees the Bruins first-hand twice a year and is unlikely to have the time to watch them on TV that much. How informed on the matter could he really be?

As it goes I think they make a good pairing, but not an amazing one. And it's the same with the rankings. I don't think either McAvoy's or Lindholm's are miles away. FWIW the whole concept of ranking players one after the other doesn't really work for me anyway, but to go by the rules of the exercise, if Charlie were around 10-12 and Hampus in the 40s, let's say, I'd have no problem with that. McAvoy is at worst a very good player, Lindy a good and capable one. I don't see it as being too negative to argue they might both be a little too high on that list.

The main thing for me is both can be better than they were last season and it'll obviously be good for us and good the team if they are. No harm in having high expectations as long as they're realistic.

 

[LouJersey]

I think people around here underrate what nhl players think of Hampus Lindholm. Didn’t an Av just say mcavoy-Lindholm is the best pair in hockey?

And yet we have people saying they’re both slotted incorrectly and that it must be all bruins fans voting. Maybe just maybe not everything is as bad or negative as we think it is….

they may have, but they don't play much together and the architects of the team think he's better with Carlo.

I think Lindholm gets a raw deal, he is better than many give him credit for but he is not a top 30 D man in the league IMO

 

[LouJersey]

I've often said the Norris should go to the best defensive defenseman and the Coffey to the best offensive defensemen. The voters for this trophy haven't done their job in years, they just look at what defenseman has scored the most points & vote for him.

BTW I agree with you 100% about Adam Fox. I've seen a lot of him. He's a train wreck as a defender.

I don't know how anyone that watches him can say that. I see him 20-30 games a year plus Bruins (not sure where that ranks) but he's an elite all around defenseman.

I still take McAvoy over him (not saying Mac is as good...yet) but Fox is superb.

 

[Shroud of Orrin]

What's so funny? By the time Coffey came to the Bruins he was cooked. To me he'll always be an Oiler.

In my world an offensive D man trophy starts with the name Orr - not Paul Coffey, even though what @mjhfb just said is absolutely true. Regardless of Bob's fearless defensive play I would want that trophy absolutely named after him.

 

[lopey]

I've often said the Norris should go to the best defensive defenseman and the Coffey to the best offensive defensemen. The voters for this trophy haven't done their job in years, they just look at what defenseman has scored the most points & vote for him.

BTW I agree with you 100% about Adam Fox. I've seen a lot of him. He's a train wreck as a defender.

Karlson winning it was a travesty. All offensive numbers. He was a minus player

 

[UncleRico]

they may have, but they don't play much together and the architects of the team think he's better with Carlo.

I think Lindholm gets a raw deal, he is better than many give him credit for but he is not a top 30 D man in the league IMO

I agree with this. Don’t think Lindholm is a #1 defender (top 32). But I certainly think he’s a top pairing defender maybe in the 35-45 range overall in the league.

And there’s nothing wrong with that at all

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

If McAvoy and Lindholm are so great together, why did Monty prefer Hampus with Carlo, with his time with Charlie being very much a distant second? You can argue balance, spreading talent or whatever, but if they were really that good together surely you're rolling with it as much as possible and you just deal with the rest as best you can. Besides, while the players of course know more than us mere fans, they're not always right. An Av sees the Bruins first-hand twice a year and is unlikely to have the time to watch them on TV that much. How informed on the matter could he really be?

As it goes I think they make a good pairing, but not an amazing one. And it's the same with the rankings. I don't think either McAvoy's or Lindholm's are miles away. FWIW the whole concept of ranking players one after the other doesn't really work for me anyway, but to go by the rules of the exercise, if Charlie were around 10-12 and Hampus in the 40s, let's say, I'd have no problem with that. McAvoy is at worst a very good player, Lindy a good and capable one. I don't see it as being too negative to argue they might both be a little too high on that list.

The main thing for me is both can be better than they were last season and it'll obviously be good for us and good the team if they are. No harm in having high expectations as long as they're realistic.

First off, last year if they play Hampus with McAvoy, you’re left without a shutdown pairing. Grizz was not able to do it anymore, so Grizz-Carlo was out. And they’d seen (like some here) that Forbort-Carlo never worked, and Witherspoon wasn’t ready to get buried like Carlo. Remember, Carlo was last in the league in OZ starts by a freaking mile.

Using pairings to somehow speak to player quality when the roster dictated who had to play where is a bit specious. This year they’ve built a much more flexible defensive corps - the left side can move around depending on situation. You’ll see all three play with McAvoy this year.

And last I’ll just say that JFresh tends to have fewer Boston fans engage with him than many other fanbases (he had stats on that a while back). If Bruins fans were more represented, they would have had every Bruins player lower, as they are much harder on our players. Perfect example is taking Mathias Ekholm over Charlie McAvoy.

 

[ON3M4N]

Including your avatar?

And you call yourself a Bruins fan? lol

not for nothing but if we're looking at all time leaders among d-men...

Goals - Ray Bourque
Assist - Ray Bourque
Points - Ray Bourque
PP Goals - Ray Bourque
GWG - Ray Bourque

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

not for nothing but if we're looking at all time leaders among d-men...

Goals - Ray Bourque
Assist - Ray Bourque
Points - Ray Bourque
PP Goals - Ray Bourque
GWG - Ray Bourque

And second all time among all players for SOG.

 

[Shroud of Orrin]

not for nothing but if we're looking at all time leaders among d-men...

Goals - Ray Bourque
Assist - Ray Bourque
Points - Ray Bourque
PP Goals - Ray Bourque
GWG - Ray Bourque

I'm fully aware and agree but I'd still want Bob's name on a piece of hardware. Its just what I'd like to see.

 

[jgatie]

And you call yourself a Bruins fan? lol

I agree with that poster. If you are suggesting Orr, I posit that you are doing Orr a grave injustice. Orr wasn't just a great offensive defenseman. He was equally great on both sides of the puck, He was unequaled on offense, and there aren't that many in history I would want on the ice protecting a lead in the last 2 minutes of a game more than him (maybe Bourque and Robinson. Maybe).

 

[PB37]

McAvoy had a very inconsistent year but he's still a top 10 dman in the league.

 

[Shroud of Orrin]

I agree with that poster. If you are suggesting Orr, I posit that you are doing Orr a grave injustice. Orr wasn't just a great offensive defenseman. He was equally great on both sides of the puck, He was unequaled on offense, and there aren't that many in history I wouldn't want on the ice protecting a lead in the last 2 minutes of a game (maybe Bourque and Robinson. Maybe).

I get he injustice part and stated that - no argument - but I also think its wrong he's not immortalized and Rocket and Messier are (for example)...

Solution - Make Orr Trophy Best Defenseman and Norris top scoring defenseman. There - I fixed it! (which its been anyway!!)

 

[Aussie Bruin]

First off, last year if they play Hampus with McAvoy, you’re left without a shutdown pairing. Grizz was not able to do it anymore, so Grizz-Carlo was out. And they’d seen (like some here) that Forbort-Carlo never worked, and Witherspoon wasn’t ready to get buried like Carlo. Remember, Carlo was last in the league in OZ starts by a freaking mile.

Using pairings to somehow speak to player quality when the roster dictated who had to play where is a bit specious. This year they’ve built a much more flexible defensive corps - the left side can move around depending on situation. You’ll see all three play with McAvoy this year.

And last I’ll just say that JFresh tends to have fewer Boston fans engage with him than many other fanbases (he had stats on that a while back). If Bruins fans were more represented, they would have had every Bruins player lower, as they are much harder on our players. Perfect example is taking Mathias Ekholm over Charlie McAvoy.

I know the reasons why Lindholm and McAvoy were not a default pairing. I basically acknowledged their existence. I still think if they were 'best in league' you'd find a way to make it work elsewhere to facilitate it. As it was, they still spent 345 mins or so together last season. That's quite a bit. And the numbers from it are good but not otherworldly. Again, they make a good pairing. Put most of any two top-50 guys in the league together and they should be. Just not convinced it's an amazing one in this case.

As for the voting, who knows what the participation numbers were really like, but I think it's safe to say that we here, or anywhere else on the dark corners of the 'net, are only representative of a part of the fanbase. For all the more negative and critically analytical folk, there are plenty of more positive, happy-go-lucky ones as well. There will always be some who pick 'their guy' simply because he's exactly that. And that's fine.

End of the day, with things like this, if you're arguing over whether McAvoy should be #4 or 15, or somewhere in that range or so, then you're in the sporting Overton window and really just splitting hairs. Someone wants to suggest something outside of that then you're getting into a bigger debate with a differentiation of opinion and any supporting evidence that actually means something. I'm not really seeing that here, not yet anyway.

 

[Dr Quincy]

I've often said the Norris should go to the best defensive defenseman and the Coffey to the best offensive defensemen. The voters for this trophy haven't done their job in years, they just look at what defenseman has scored the most points & vote for him.

BTW I agree with you 100% about Adam Fox. I've seen a lot of him. He's a train wreck as a defender.

Trainwreck how? Explain.

When he's on the ice do the Rangers give up a lot of goals?
When he's on the ice do the Rangers give up a lot of shots?
When he's on the ice do the Rangers give up a lot of scoring chances?
When he's on the ice dot the Rangers give up a lot of High Danger Scoring Chances?

Would you agree that a player who was a "trainwreck defensively" would tend to bleed those things?

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

I know the reasons why Lindholm and McAvoy were not a default pairing. I basically acknowledged their existence. I still think if they were 'best in league' you'd find a way to make it work elsewhere to facilitate it. As it was, they still spent 345 mins or so together last season. That's quite a bit. And the numbers from it are good but not otherworldly. Again, they make a good pairing. Put most of any two top-50 guys in the league together and they should be. Just not convinced it's an amazing one in this case.

As for the voting, who knows what the participation numbers were really like, but I think it's safe to say that we here, or anywhere else on the dark corners of the 'net, are only representative of a part of the fanbase. For all the more negative and critically analytical folk, there are plenty of more positive, happy-go-lucky ones as well. There will always be some who pick 'their guy' simply because he's exactly that. And that's fine.

End of the day, with things like this, if you're arguing over whether McAvoy should be #4 or 15, or somewhere in that range or so, then you're in the sporting Overton window and really just splitting hairs. Someone wants to suggest something outside of that then you're getting into a bigger debate with a differentiation of opinion and any supporting evidence that actually means something. I'm not really seeing that here, not yet anyway.

Among pairings who played 300 minutes together, McAvoy-Lindholm were 6th for xGF%. And that was with a terrible offensive side. They were a ridiculous shutdown pair - 3rd in the league in xGA/60. Better than Heiskanen-Harley. Better than Forsling-Ekblad.

 

[Gee Wally]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811514023105499167

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Personally I don't care if they ever create separate trophies for defensive and offensive D,
Just please don't insult Orr by naming the offensive trophy after him. I watched him check, block shots face first without a helmet, even fight, and to insinuate that he was just offensive would be wrong.

That would never happen.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I get he injustice part and stated that - no argument - but I also think its wrong he's not immortalized and Rocket and Messier are (for example)...

Solution - Make Orr Trophy Best Defenseman and Norris top scoring defenseman. There - I fixed it! (which its been anyway!!)

Gretzky, Lemieux and especially Howe don't have trophies named after them.

It's no big deal.

 

[Over the volcano]

Among pairings who played 300 minutes together, McAvoy-Lindholm were 6th for xGF%. And that was with a terrible offensive side. They were a ridiculous shutdown pair - 3rd in the league in xGA/60. Better than Heiskanen-Harley. Better than Forsling-Ekblad.

Defensive Pairs - Natural Stat Trick

This has them at 18th in the league and getting fed tons of offensive zone draws as well.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Defensive Pairs - Natural Stat Trick

This has them at 18th in the league.

I was looking at MoneyPuck.

Regardless, 55% or 57% is pretty great.

 

[Patdud]

Personally I don't care if they ever create separate trophies for defensive and offensive D,
Just please don't insult Orr by naming the offensive trophy after him. I watched him check, block shots face first without a helmet, even fight, and to insinuate that he was just offensive would be wrong.

Would also be an insult to a player like Makar who is putting up godly numbers while being a phenomenal defensemen.