Post-Game Talk: #24 - 11/24/18 | capitals @ RANGERS | 2:00 - MSG, NHLN

[Richard Banger]

That's how most teams that won cups built them

That's not how most teams have done it. The NHL has been around for 100 years.

That's how recent teams have won it.

 

[RangerBoy]

Anyway, it’s the same dumb argument over and over.

Yes tanking is not a guarantee.

But historically, a planned bottoming out and collecting top 3 picks

is over 90% of the Stanley cup champions.

The other methods are fractions of a percent.

I feel as if people just know the Rangers wont do a full tank, so they are just arguing whethet water is wet or “hey ya never know”.

It’s a very, very simple answer that bottoming out most often leads to high end future success.

I mean people could stamp there feet on the ground, stick their fingers in their ears and say “well I don’t think its fair it works that way”


Well...idk what to tell you.

Yep. The Rangers being bad is the only way to get better because that's how the system is set up. To get a high end forward/difference maker someone you build a team around type of player is available at the top of the draft.

The Rangers finishing with the 12th pick in the draft does nothing for them.

The Rangers are "competitive" with players who will not be on team in a couple of years.

The Rangers need an entire new team.

The Rangers need a young superstar forward to build their team around. Those guys are usually found at the top of the draft which is foreign territory for the Rangers. They haven't picked higher than 6th.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

By tanking? I doubt it. The Pens had years of 46 and 38 points before they got Lemieux so unless they tanked for two straight years I don’t buy it. Look at all the first overall picks without a cup, the list is long, McKinnon, Ekblad, Nugent-Hopkins, Lindros, Daigle, Kovalchuk. Man, the list goes on and on. Just cuz you have the first pick doesn’t mean your going to win a cup in the near future. Florida, Colorado And Edmonton are hardly cup favourites even with all the first overalls they’ve acquired.

Edmonton is bad because they have bad management, not because they acquired so many top draft picks. Put Crosby on Edmonton and that team would still be bad. Put McDavid in Pittsburgh and he’d win cups like Crosby has.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That's not how most teams have done it. The NHL has been around for 100 years.

That's how recent teams have won it.

Yeah well we should be looking at how teams in the cap era have done it.

Who gives a f*** about how teams were built in 1930.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Edmonton is bad because they have bad management, not because they acquired so many top draft picks. Put Crosby on Edmonton and that team would still be bad. Put McDavid in Pittsburgh and he’d win cups like Crosby has.

People are mistaking "needing an elite center to win a Cup" with "you definitely win a Cup if you have an elite center. Not every elite center wins a cup, but every cup winner has an elite center

It's the same as saying that every cow is an animal, but not every animal is a cow.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

No it isnt. Just no. You are spliting hairs from the painfully obvious.

Who’s splitting hairs? You’re proving my point anyway. I said it was a subjective term, and here we are debating what constitues a franchise center.

Besides, the one Cup we have in 80 years had a whopping one player who was a top-5 pick, and that was “Black Ace” Eddie Olczyk.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Boston has one of the top two lines in hockey and its highest draft position is 25th overall. The other two guys weren’t even 1st rounders.

Point and Kucherov were both picked after the 40’s.

Josi, Subban and Ekholm all went 2nd or later — league’s best defense trio.

The Rangers’ problem has been trading away picks and busting three drafts in a row. That’s why they suck now. 2017 marked the turnaround point. As much as I hated most of picks the last two drafts, Chytil and Kravtsov absolutely are two cornerstone pieces to build around.

I read the GDT’s for comedy. It’s amazing how many in this fanbase fail to see how complete a player Chytil is. And he just turned 19.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I read the GDT’s for comedy. It’s amazing how many in this fanbase fail to see how complete a player Chytil is. And he just turned 19.

I think you mistake people being cautious for people failing to see how good Chytil is. He's still a work in progress and some fans are a bit more hesitant (with good reason).

 

[WeRa]

The Rangers’ problem has been trading away picks and busting three drafts in a row. That’s why they suck now. 2017 marked the turnaround point. As much as I hated most of picks the last two drafts, Chytil and Kravtsov absolutely are two cornerstone pieces to build around.

Absolutely agree with you...
The reason of trading 1st round picks away was clear... but the result isn't as good as our board wanted.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Absolutely agree with you...
The reason of trading 1st round picks away was clear... but the result isn't as good as our board wanted.

Detroit proved you can be dominant and still draft well. It’s funny that Sather’s undoing in Edmonton were poor amateur and pro scouting during the dynasty years. Sort of the same thing happened here between 2014 and 2016.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

People are mistaking "needing an elite center to win a Cup" with "you definitely win a Cup if you have an elite center. Not every elite center wins a cup, but every cup winner has an elite center

It's the same as saying that every cow is an animal, but not every animal is a cow.

What an odd argument. Would you agree that having an elite center increases your chances of winning the cup? (This isn’t really directed at you but the people making this type of argument)

Nothing is guaranteed. But the rangers continually do not help themselves long term in their decision making. This was the year to bottom out if there was any. It doesn’t help that there’s tons of fans cheering on this team to reach mediocrity

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

We have the NYR's, Ott, LA, NJ, Vegas and Boston recently all either winning a cup or making a finals. Clearly the old thoughts about NEEDING a top pick are no longer quite as valid.

At the same time two of the best of all time are still on the Pens and 2 top picks were on Washington when they just won so it's very easy to only look at the cup wiinners and ignore that we now have a fairly sizeable sample of cup contenders that never tanked.

I think we have more than enough evidence to demonstrate that a tank is unnecessary though incredibly helpful to most cup winners

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Detroit proved you can be dominant and still draft well. It’s funny that Sather’s undoing in Edmonton were poor amateur and pro scouting during the dynasty years. Sort of the same thing happened here between 2014 and 2016.

I think Gordie Clarke stinks but your statement just isn’t true. The rangers threw away draft picks hand over fist in a futile attempt for the cup. No scout could magically overcome that

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Detroit proved you can be dominant and still draft well. It’s funny that Sather’s undoing in Edmonton were poor amateur and pro scouting during the dynasty years. Sort of the same thing happened here between 2014 and 2016.

What he traded for also sucked comopared to what we traded away.

We gave away an insane ransom for the combo of Yandle, MSL, Smith, Clowe, Staal

Frankly, compared to what we spent on them, they absolutely flat out sucked.

Add in taking Mcilrath over Tarasenko or fowler, having Cherepanov die and Sauer lose his career.

The Rangers lost what amounts to

Anthony Duclair, John Moore, Saarela
1, 1, 1, 1, 1
2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
3, 3

For Keith yandle, MSL, Smith, Clowe and Staal.

Jesus f***ing christ. That is a staggeringly horrific use of assets

I liked Nash but if you add in what he cost and look at his PO performance? My god...

Could've offered all that I listed above for f***ing Ovechkin, Crosby or a 1st overall pick and gotten more for it.

Even if you dont count the 1st and 2nd used on Chere and Sauer the point still stands

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What an odd argument. Would you agree that having an elite center increases your chances of winning the cup? (This isn’t really directed at you but the people making this type of argument)

Nothing is guaranteed. But the rangers continually do not help themselves long term in their decision making. This was the year to bottom out if there was any. It doesn’t help that there’s tons of fans cheering on this team to reach mediocrity

Exactly. People are looking at it all wrong.

 

[will1066]

No one premeditatedly cheers for mediocrity. Dont lump cheering for your team to win with wanting mediocrity together. Even though that might be the unfortunate result, it is not the intent of anyone.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Detroit proved you can be dominant and still draft well. It’s funny that Sather’s undoing in Edmonton were poor amateur and pro scouting during the dynasty years. Sort of the same thing happened here between 2014 and 2016.

Yeah Detroit showed how easy it is. Just draft 2 hall of famers in the 7th round and then draft a top 5 defenseman of all time in a later round. Very simple.

Remind me though, what was Steve Yzerman’s draft position?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

We have the NYR's, Ott, LA, NJ, Vegas and Boston recently all either winning a cup or making a finals. Clearly the old thoughts about NEEDING a top pick are no longer quite as valid.

At the same time two of the best of all time are still on the Pens and 2 top picks were on Washington when they just won so it's very easy to only look at the cup wiinners and ignore that we now have a fairly sizeable sample of cup contenders that never tanked.

I think we have more than enough evidence to demonstrate that a tank is unnecessary though incredibly helpful to most cup winners

Who cares about “making it to the final” I’d like to win.

Incredibly helpful? Seeing as how all but one since the lockout started had been very bad before they won I’d say it was what led them to winning.

 

[Edge]

I guess I’m confused as to how the Rangers could’ve made themselves less competitive of a team at this point without magically moving certain contracts, bainishing young NHL talent to the minors, and trading away their remaining assets for pennies on the dollar.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

I will never root for this team to lose, ever. You can build a cup contender without a top 5 pick. The rangers have accumulated a lot of 1st round picks and prospects in the last 2 years and are likely to have at least 2 1st rounders this year. Thats a good thing, even if they are 8th and 20th. Chytil was picked 21 and could very well be a #1 center in this league. IMO this team will be a legit contender in 2-3 even if they don't pick top 5.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I will never root for this team to lose, ever. You can build a cup contender without a top 5 pick. The rangers have accumulated a lot of 1st round picks and prospects in the last 2 years and are likely to have at least 2 1st rounders this year. Thats a good thing, even if they are 8th and 20th. Chytil was picked 21 and could very well be a #1 center in this league. IMO this team will be a legit contender in 2-3 even if they don't pick top 5.

Keep banging that drum. Maybe one day it will come true, I’m sure that’s what teams like Minnesota and St. Louis are waiting to happen too. Until then, I’ll just look at all the teams that HAVE been bad and are laughing with their cup rings on.

The only team that didn’t have a top 5 pick on their roster at the time who won recently was a team that drafte a top 5 D-man of all time and two hall of famers in 7th round.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Who cares about “making it to the final” I’d like to win.

Incredibly helpful? Seeing as how all but one since the lockout started had been very bad before they won I’d say it was what led them to winning.

Holy cow did the point ever blow right past you.

Incredibly helpful? Seeing as how all but one since the lockout started had been very bad before they won I’d say it was what led them to winning.

Every team has been very bad at some point.

The 1994 team was very bad, if you go back far enough, before it became good. The NYR's, Ott, LA, NJ and Boston were all very bad at SOME point before winning or making it to the finals

But being bad wasn't what led the NYR to the cup in 94. Just like all the teams I mentioned were not led to the finals or to a cup win by being bad.

League's change and as the NHL has expanded, created greater parity and as the rules have changed, so too has the influence of a top pick. That's why teams who had the top pick since 2010 have not won the cup.

Technically it's 2009 but the TBL came close and lost to the Blackhawks (Who picked Kane first overall back in 08...10 YEARS ago.

So we have 10 years of 1st overalls and 2nd overalls who could not guide the team that drafted them to success.

McKinnon, Ekblad, Hall, Yakupov, Hopkins, Tavares, etc, etc.

The effect of these recent top picks can't compare to the effect of building complete teams, using the enitre draft + Free agency.

From 2004-2008 the league's shit drafting system, combined with insane luck, allowed super teams to form and dominate the league for the last decade and a half. What happens when the Crosby's, malkins, ovie's, Toewes, kanes, etc finally hang it up or get old?

There are no more super teams built on tanking. It doesn't work the way it used to.

I don't think it's bold to predict that the next decade and a half will feature a lot of teams winning without the benefit of a 1st overall pick. I mentioned those teams because they're the evidence that this shift is already occurring

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I love the “it didn’t work for team X so it won’t work for us, even it’s worjed for team Y and Z to great success.” Argument.

You know what hasn’t worked for any team since the lockout started? Not doing that. Mediocrity. Why aren’t you saying that about those teams?

The real problem: some people have no stomach. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They don’t want to get their hands dirty. Too bad.

For every Edmonton, Florida, etc you bring up I’ll bring up Minnesota, Calgary, St. Louis,etc.

I have facts and history on my side. You have guesses.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Keep banging that drum. Maybe one day it will come true, I’m sure that’s what teams like Minnesota and St. Louis are waiting to happen too. Until then, I’ll just look at all the teams that HAVE been bad and are laughing with their cup rings on.

I will continue to beat that drum. Edmonton and Buffalo fans have watched some really bad hockey for a long time. I'm not willing to do that.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I will continue to beat that drum. Edmonton and Buffalo fans have watched some really bad hockey for a long time. I'm not willing to do that.

Yeah because they have bad management.

Sorry you don’t want to watch bad hockey. Fjnd another team to watch. You can bounce around to teams that are in first place. That way you’d never have to do anything that isn’t easy.