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Blue Jays GDT: 2024 v4 |Mon, Jun 17 | vs BOS | 7pm ET/4pm PT | Pivetta vs Kikuchi

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The Nemesis

The Nemesis

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shaner8989 said:
You keep telling yourself it was a good trade.
Click to expand...

By your logic we can say that the Dickey trade ended up fine because Syndergaard's career fell off a cliff within a couple of years and he's now a replacement-level scrub that's out of baseball after playing for 4 clubs in 2 years and now having more bad seasons on the books than good ones while d'Arnaud failed to stick at catcher and has bounced around the league as a middling DH with just 2 great seasons to his name.

That's how this works, right? Who cares how he did in the aftermath of the trade with the team that the Jays traded with, he's gone on to suck now so that invalidates everything that came before it! The black mark on Alex Anthopoulos' record has been lifted because according to Shaner it's acceptable to re-frame deals by ignoring context and history to just concentrate on the ultimate end point!
 
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MS

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Eyedea said:
I think their biggest issue is actually not doing something they previously preached, which was sustaining a competitive culture through internal development. Anyone can argue that the system is bare but one absolute case against that is the fact that Davis Schneider, an almost retired player who was seen as an “org guy” up until 2023, was given a chance due to his stellar play.

And we see guys who have excelled this year not get that chance despite plenty of players on the MLB club playing themselves out of the lineup. Barger is the only guy that actually got a shot, if we can even call it that. A cup of coffee playing a position he’s never had experience with, and being in and out of the lineup every other day.

Barger, Horwitz, Martinez, Jimenez, even guys like Berroa, Lukes, and Robertson can compete for a spot in the lineup. Roden and Kasevich are probably due for a promotion to AAA. I just don’t see as much player movement through the system as we have in years past and the lack of aggression is fuelling a more laissez faire approach which has emulated in the player’s performance.
Click to expand...

Yup. They've become incredibly conservative.

0 'new' system players on the roster this year relative to last season. Sending out Swanson was literally the 1st actual change they made from the opening day roster and it happens more than 1/3 of the way through a disappointing season.

Back in 2020 they were calling up Kirk from A-ball. What happened to that?

Discoverer said:
I think it's time for Barger to get another shot, or at least Horwitz. They've both been fantastic in Buffalo. DFA Vogelbach, give Turner and Springer a bit more rest until they turn things around, and plug Barger in as a 3B/RF/LF to get him fairly regular at bats.

I know they're not just going to cut Turner and Springer and call up the kids, and that's fine. But they can reduce their playing time, and Vogelbach shouldn't be blocking guys who are earning an opportunity in the minors.
Click to expand...

To me there are 3 things you could hope to get from a DH: 1) Hits well above league average. 2) Has some positional flexibility. 3) Is young and has potential future value you're developing.

Turner and Vogelbach is just more Kendrys Morales, a player I hated. There is literally zero point in having age 30+ DHs on the roster who have no positional flexibility and can only DH and are dropping an OPS+ of 95.

Even if Spencer Horwitz only puts up an OPS+ of 85 ... hey, he can also play OF/1B and even a bit of 2B, and maybe the ABs you're investing in him now will lead to a guy who puts up a 120 OPS+ in 2025 or 2026.

I agree that they probably won't cut Turner (even though they bloody well should if he doesn't start producing ASAP) but Vogelbach here is just nonsense. What is the actual point?
 
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shaner8989

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Aug 6, 2005
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The Nemesis said:
By your logic we can say that the Dickey trade ended up fine because Syndergaard's career fell off a cliff within a couple of years and he's now a replacement-level scrub that's out of baseball after playing for 4 clubs in 2 years and now having more bad seasons on the books than good ones while d'Arnaud failed to stick at catcher and has bounced around the league as a middling DH with just 2 great seasons to his name.

That's how this works, right? Who cares how he did in the aftermath of the trade with the team that the Jays traded with, he's gone on to suck now so that invalidates everything that came before it! The black mark on Alex Anthopoulos' record has been lifted because according to Shaner it's acceptable to re-frame deals by ignoring context and history to just concentrate on the ultimate end point!
Click to expand...
RA Dickey was coming off a career year with the Mets. Dickey was a f***ing bum with us and was always 38 years old. That trade was just another gem by this horseshit jays organization
 
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Suntouchable13

Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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Swanson is an elite reliever. He had a great season last year. I don’t like Atkins, but how could he foresee Swanson’s young son get hit by a car during spring training which would f*** up his preparation for the season? there’s no reason why he can’t get back to his 2023 form once he is eventually gets called back up.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
55,216
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Vancouver, BC
shaner8989 said:
You keep telling yourself it was a good trade.
Click to expand...

They essentially used the $ savings/roster spot from that trade to sign Kevin Kiermaier and Kiermaier/Swanson put up 5.3 WAR last year to Teoscar's 2.1 WAR.

Teoscar was then a FA and left Seattle so they have nothing to show for it.

We also got Adam Macko back who is now in the team's top 10 prospects.

That deal was an absolutely fantastic trade. They won it in the short term and they won it in the long term.

They could have won it even more if they brought back Teoscar to DH this year instead of Turner.
 
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The Nemesis

The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
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shaner8989 said:
RA Dickey was coming off a career year with the Mets. Dickey was a f***ing bum with us and was always 38 years old. That trade was just another gem by this horseshit jays organization
Click to expand...

But by the logic that you lambaste the Swanson trade with, the Dickey trade is let off the hook because Dickey had 2 decent years with the Jays and everything the Mets traded for turned to crap. You can't say that the Dickey trade sucked because Dickey was bad at the time while then also failing to acknowledge that Swanson had a great year last year, Hernandez had a mediocre year and failed to re-sign with the Mariners, and Macko is a decent prospect. The Dickey trade sucked because the Jays gave up valuable pieces for a mediocre return. The Swanson trade was fine because they got a great year of of him last year, a good prospect in the system, and this year is weird because Swanson's spring was destroyed by the fact that his kid got hit by a car and he's never gotten back on track after that. Meanwhile you hold up Hernandez' season this year as evidence that it was bad but he's doing that after he left the team that acquired him and signed in LA, which he easily could've done if he stayed in Toronto too. You aren't even doing an apples to oranges comparison. It's more like apples to a box of bolts from a hardware store.

Besides, I thought you said you were done with this. Granted that's like your 30th "done with this" proclamation of the last couple seasons so in addition to using shit logic and throwing spoiled-baby-level tantrums, you're also lying for attention.
 
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Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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MS said:
Yup. They've become incredibly conservative.

0 'new' system players on the roster this year relative to last season. Sending out Swanson was literally the 1st actual change they made from the opening day roster and it happens more than 1/3 of the way through a disappointing season.

Back in 2020 they were calling up Kirk from A-ball. What happened to that?



To me there are 3 things you could hope to get from a DH: 1) Hits well above league average. 2) Has some positional flexibility. 3) Is young and has potential future value you're developing.

Turner and Vogelbach is just more Kendrys Morales, a player I hated. There is literally zero point in having age 30+ DHs on the roster who have no positional flexibility and can only DH and are dropping an OPS+ of 95.

Even if Spencer Horwitz only puts up an OPS+ of 85 ... hey, he can also play OF/1B and even a bit of 2B, and maybe the ABs you're investing in him now will lead to a guy who puts up a 120 OPS+ in 2025 or 2026.

I agree that they probably won't cut Turner (even though they bloody well should if he doesn't start producing ASAP) but Vogelbach here is just nonsense. What is the actual point?
Click to expand...
Yep. I didn't even hate bringing Vogelbach in and giving him a shot - they needed some pop in the lineup and he's just a year removed from a 126 wRC+. But now you've given him a chance and he's been bad. Yeah, a .339 xwOBA suggests he's been solid and unlucky, but that's not good enough for this team, especially the way some of the Bisons (who actually play multiple positions and can take playing time away from other struggling hitters) have been playing.
 
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MS

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Discoverer said:
Yep. I didn't even hate bringing Vogelbach in and giving him a shot - they needed some pop in the lineup and he's just a year removed from a 126 wRC+. But now you've given him a chance and he's been bad. Yeah, a .339 xwOBA suggests he's been solid and unlucky, but that's not good enough for this team, especially the way some of the Bisons (who actually play multiple positions and can take playing time away from other struggling hitters) have been playing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's worth bringing some of these guys to spring training. And if there are no other options, whatever.

But for his career Vogelbach has an OPS+ of 107. He's not Brandon Belt. He's basically an average hitter who can only DH which is a replacement-level player.

Even if he was delivering his career average result ... I have no concept of how it's a good idea to have him on the roster over Horwitz or Barger. I'm pretty sure both of those guys could be delivering a 90-100 OPS+, too, if given a run of games, and they're better in literally every other way.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Kirk is so painful on the basepaths. Only advances one base on what should have been an IKF double, then can’t score on a middling fly ball.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Vancouver, BC
Elbow for Manoah is not good news. Thought it might be an oblique or something from his reaction but unfortunately not.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
55,216
89,929
Vancouver, BC
Vector said:
Over the last two seasons, he’s really become just a part-time player. Which makes not extending Jansen even stranger.
Click to expand...

His power just disappeared in the middle of 2022 and he’s now a slap-hitting defensive specialist.

And yeah, huge questions at C for next year.
 
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