OT: 2024 Soccer and Vancouver Whitecaps Thread
- Thread starter Jyrki21
- Start date
From what little I saw of the Caps this year, it seemed to me that when Rryan Gauld and Brian White are out of the lineup, they're just not the same team.
But if people feel the Whitecaps depth is the equivalent of any team in the MLS, then I defer to them. Just don't see enough games to comment.
Well yeah, that’s their two leading scorers. There isn’t a team in the league that won’t be noticeably worse when that happens.
I’m a broken record on this, but the Whitecaps are very much in the league’s mushy-middle majority. They are at a decided disadvantage compared to the other ones (turf, West, Canada) which means they are on the lower end of it and unlikely to ever win big, but the “darling” teams are the ones who get all the attention, so fans have an impression that they are the norm. But they really aren’t.
CascadiaPuck
Proud Canucks investor.
- Aug 28, 2011
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Massive news.
This is either really good news or horrific news for the franchise depending on who steps up to buy the franchise.
The current ownership group clearly lacked any ambition to invest in the franchise. Either cheaping out on-field personnel in their early days or going the route of spending on players but totally cheaping out when it came to managing/scouting personnel.
There are a few concerns.
You can bet there are many thirsty business moguls and consortiums down in the USA licking their chops at an opportunity for relocation. I don't think there would be much resistance from Don Garber given the fact we posted the lowest revenue in the league.
A local ownership group would have to be ok with really not inheriting much. There's no soccer specific stadium nor feasible sites to build one. They are stuck at BC Place if they buy the franchise.
The only local guy that I could see realistically buying this franchise is Amar Doman who owns the BC Lions. However, running costs may be too high for him.
Unfortunately I have a sinking feeling this city is about to lose their MLS franchise. It's been the sentiment I've had for a few years due to the overall lack of fan interest along with the fact we are a smallish market that cannot attract a full cast of decent players.
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Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
- Mar 6, 2010
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Good riddance.
Cheapskates from the beginning.
Now trying to sell when team values have gone up as they don't want to spend the money for a competitive team.
Cheapskates from the beginning.
Now trying to sell when team values have gone up as they don't want to spend the money for a competitive team.
logan5
Registered User
Francesco Aquilini showed interest in putting forth an expansion bid back in 2008, so I have to think he has a lot of interest now. He has deep pockets and is a sports fan that likes winning. The first thing the new owner needs to do is build a soccer specific stadium. burnaby is willing to put up some land and money at Swangard, so there's a huge opportunity there. Finally and chance to put this franchise on the right track.
- Aug 28, 2011
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The only way FAQ invests any money in a new site is if there's incredible real estate potential with the site. This is where I think the Waterfront Stadium may be up his ally because you could theoretically build swaths of developments over the railyards.
logan5
Registered User
The City has other plans for the waterfront. Just not going to happen, as fantastic as it would be, as in best stadium experience in NA.
There wouldn't be any potential to build condo towers right at the Swangard sight, but there's always real estate potential around a major stadium. If a new stadium were built at Swangard, you are already in a high demand dense neighbourhood like Metrotown. The City of Vancouver would almost certainly up zone the area across from Swangard, to allow towers, so lots of opportunity there.
The Whitecaps are the 2nd lowest valuable team in the league, so the value can only go up for the new owner, and it probly wouldn't be long for the Whitecaps with their own stadium, and all the teams in general for their valuations to hit 1 billion in 20 years or so.
Is there much history in MLS of a team pulling up stakes and moving to another city? My impression is that while MLS has welcomed a slew of expansion teams into the fold, nobody has left an existing market and moved to a new location.
I think it's probably something that the MLS discourages......but of course they have located in some markets that make you wonder about their long-term viability. But I just can't see MLS wanting to abandon the Vancouver market, given its soccer history and natural rivalry with Seattle and Portland.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
I was curious at that comment, then I looked up the Whitecaps attendance this year and it increased 56% this year from 2023. 26,121 from 2023's 16,745 average. If anyone can explain why the huge increase, I would like to know.
I think Vancouver will always be a small potatos team in the MLS no matter the owner. Maybe if some rich Saudi or Red Bull buys it, there will be money flowing.
It would have been a whole different story had Kerfoot been allowed to build that waterfront stadium. Don't know the exact reasons but I think it was the city, the port authority, cn rail and various other parties that said no.
The Whitecaps are like the B.C. Lions.....there's a core of supporters who come out every year. In case of the caps it's the same 20,000-25,000 fans--many of whom have supported the team for years.
But you can't spend the hundreds of millions necessary for a waterfront stadium, even if the Port and the Province had been willing to give up the land....which was never in the cards. I mean how could you ever justify such an expense for the same 20,000 or so hardy fans.....and how long would it take for a waterfront stadium to become a total 'white elephant'?
A natural grass stadium like BMO Field might work in a City like Toronto, which is almost three times bigger than Vancouver. But a waterfront natural grass field in Vancouver was a pipe dream.
Wry n Ginger
Water which is too pure has no fish
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
It was only $70 million or so back in 2004? when it was proposed. And look at that land now, it's still a bunch of parking spots and a gravel lot. I don't see how it would be a white elephant and when it was going to be used for other sporting events and music concerts.
But that is a dead issue, there was too many parties with too much at stake.
Don't think the Caps can keep using a government owned stadium for much longer. They have to build their own facility with real grass.
End on a Hinote
Registered Abuser
I swear if we lose the Caps I will lose all hope of Vancouver ever being a legit sports city, and ever acquiring any more pro sports teams.
I'm not saying I ever expected the NBA to return, or an MLB team but I always had that small glimmer of hope. But if they can't keep a team in a "mid" league that's more or less a laughing stock to European football fans (regardless if its the fans or owners to blame), it will just put the final nail in the coffin of any hope I have of the city being anything other than another run of the mill Canadian city. At least as far as sports go.
Maybe I've been delusional for thinking that Vancouver had that Toronto type potential to play along with the US cities in other leagues despite its population difference.
NHL, CFL, Junior hockey, that's it. Better than nothing, I guess.
I'm not saying I ever expected the NBA to return, or an MLB team but I always had that small glimmer of hope. But if they can't keep a team in a "mid" league that's more or less a laughing stock to European football fans (regardless if its the fans or owners to blame), it will just put the final nail in the coffin of any hope I have of the city being anything other than another run of the mill Canadian city. At least as far as sports go.
Maybe I've been delusional for thinking that Vancouver had that Toronto type potential to play along with the US cities in other leagues despite its population difference.
NHL, CFL, Junior hockey, that's it. Better than nothing, I guess.
- Aug 28, 2011
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The Messi/Inter Miami effect. There were many casuals that purchased season tickets solely to watch the Inter Miami dream team play here (lol). Many casuals attended random games but ultimately...there were many nights when the place was practically empty. I reckon we will see a sizeable drop in season ticket holders next year.
We are no longer a working class city and local sports fans here no longer have disposable income. Rich newcomers tend not to care about pro-sports.
It's a massive issue and one that gets overlooked. There's little opportunity for growth in this market.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
I've always discussed that Vancouver is barely a sports town at all. It's a Canucks town, not even a hockey town. Lots of great junior hockey in an around the Lower Mainland but you really hear nothing in the major media outlets. Abbotsford is only relevant because of their now Canucks association, no one cared when they were the Heat.
Oh yeah I totally forgot about the Messi thing. I guess I've totally put the Whitecaps game out of my mind since they burned me on those tickets. I'll never be a fan of them again. I'd rather give my money to a 2nd. Bundesliga team than the Caps.
End on a Hinote
Registered Abuser
And you're right. Even as far as junior hockey. That fact that Seattle and Everett have such passionate fanbases and the Giants had to move to a smaller arena in Langley is just sad.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
The Giants have been irrelevant since moving to Langley. I remember going to games at the PNE colosseum and there were 10,000 crowds regularly and a great atmosphere. I've been to LEC games and the crowd is barely 4000 most nights.
I'm a big BCHL guy and outside of the people in the actual arena, I see no discussion or anyone talking about it. I live in Surrey and go to Eagles games and when I talk about them at work, I get this wide eyed stare from regular joes.
End on a Hinote
Registered Abuser
It's interesting because I always thought that the fact that Vancouver has become a bigger, wealthier city is what would have helped Vancouver increase its potential as a sports market.
I figured, the city's population is growing rapidly and with wealthier people, that means more sports fans with more disposable income. Apparently that's one of the reasons why Denver, despite its relatively smaller population, is able to successfully support all big 4 teams & the MLS.
Crazy that it could actually mean the opposite for Vancouver.
Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
- Mar 6, 2010
- 18,052
- 17,889
Vast majority of the Metro Vancouver population does not have the income to support the disposable income to support the Caps after paying for housing and cost of living.
It’s not like the Nucks where there is a huge segment of business owners using the tickets for their actual business.
Also, the team has not been entertaining nor good for a long while. Caps should have taken advantage while the Nucks were struggling but they didn’t.
Very interesting who takes over and what happens next.
It’s not like the Nucks where there is a huge segment of business owners using the tickets for their actual business.
Also, the team has not been entertaining nor good for a long while. Caps should have taken advantage while the Nucks were struggling but they didn’t.
Very interesting who takes over and what happens next.
I think a big part of the problem in Metro Vancouver is where the stadiums are located--basically across the street from each other in downtown Vancouver.
Meantime the suburbs of Surrey, Langley and out of Abbotsford are exploding in growth. Have you ever tried to drive from the other side of the Fraser River to downtown Vancouver on even a 'normal' traffic day? It's basically hopeless. And for too many people, Skytrain still isn't a viable option.
I don't think it's a fact that fans have given up following these teams--it's just that they've given up trying to get into downtown Vancouver on game days.
I felt the same way, once. In hindsight, it probably would have made no difference either way. It's been pretty obvious for a while that the Caps ownership wasn't terribly interested in building a championship calibre team. They were looking to maximize their ROI. It makes perfect sense when you remember that sports teams are ultimately a business venture. The passion of the fanbase only matters if it enhances the ROI for the owners.
I guess we'll see what happens with the sale, but it's hard to imagine things will change with new ownership. I think the most likely scenario is that the franchise is relocated but either agrees to give up or sell the name "Whitecaps" to a group that operates a team in a lesser league.
If that's the case, then the Whitecaps will become as relevant to my sporting fandom as the Warriors or the Canadians.
Well I think it is generally bad news, although it doesn't have to be. I received some pushback online for suggesting the league is anxious to be rid of Vancouver (I do think this), but maybe they do recognize that at its core it should be a better market than Sacramento or Phoenix or whatever.
The "cheap ownership" narrative hasn't really been true for some years, and it continues to be a lazy talking point. The Whitecaps are middle-tier spenders, but face enormous hurdles to attract players that most other teams won't face, and for the most part they are insurmountable when your league isn't at the top of the pyramid. I'm not sure enduring huge losses every year would actually pay substantial dividends for ownership in this respect. (Although I would have hoped that Jeff Mallett in particular would have been willing to try a bit more, considering what small potatoes it is compared to the Giants).
And much as no one wants to hear it, the fans play a role too. Vancouver used to be the soccer capital of the country, but for a variety of reasons (mostly demographic ones I think) that is very clearly no longer the case. Given the region's history, we should have been up there with Seattle and Portland, but never even came close to generating that kind of atmosphere or interest. Obviously a big part of that is the stadium and a big part of that was the team on the pitch, but there was clear gulf from the very beginning.
If this is the end of the line, it really sucks. Despite everything I followed the team from a distance and travelled several times to see them on the road. I have the Apple TV MLS package. I don't even follow European soccer, I just like having another Vancouver team to root for. I've lived outside the region for most of my life now but I still wear BC pride on my sleeve and when things unfold the way they always seem to, I take that kind of thing pretty personally.
The "cheap ownership" narrative hasn't really been true for some years, and it continues to be a lazy talking point. The Whitecaps are middle-tier spenders, but face enormous hurdles to attract players that most other teams won't face, and for the most part they are insurmountable when your league isn't at the top of the pyramid. I'm not sure enduring huge losses every year would actually pay substantial dividends for ownership in this respect. (Although I would have hoped that Jeff Mallett in particular would have been willing to try a bit more, considering what small potatoes it is compared to the Giants).
And much as no one wants to hear it, the fans play a role too. Vancouver used to be the soccer capital of the country, but for a variety of reasons (mostly demographic ones I think) that is very clearly no longer the case. Given the region's history, we should have been up there with Seattle and Portland, but never even came close to generating that kind of atmosphere or interest. Obviously a big part of that is the stadium and a big part of that was the team on the pitch, but there was clear gulf from the very beginning.
If this is the end of the line, it really sucks. Despite everything I followed the team from a distance and travelled several times to see them on the road. I have the Apple TV MLS package. I don't even follow European soccer, I just like having another Vancouver team to root for. I've lived outside the region for most of my life now but I still wear BC pride on my sleeve and when things unfold the way they always seem to, I take that kind of thing pretty personally.
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