HF Habs: 2024 NHL Draft Thread

[Andrei79]

A successful Yakemchuk on the Senators make them even more insufferable. I'd much rather see him go to a team in the West.​

100%. There's not much talk about Parekh or Yakemchuk but both bring unique skillsets. I would be pissed to see Yakemchuk on Ottawa with Tkachuk though.

 

[Andrei79]

Okay? You said points=better. Those guys racked up points because of longevity.

The original argument is Pietrangelo vs Karlsson. Pietrangelo gets you 50 points AND great defensive play. That’s more valuable than 80 points and dogshit defence.

I saw the list you posted and all of them save Niedermayer before Anaheim were big time point producers. Niedermayer, once out of NJs system, was one of the best producing defensemen. Heck, 1998 had Lidstrom, Niedermayer and Zubov as the top 3 scoring D's. All guys with multiple top 1-2-3-5-10 finishes in scoring.

 

[Hannibal]

I gotta say, i really really love Sam Dickinson. If Lindstrom is gone before us, he woul be right up there with Iginla for me. Even if he’s LD.

Guhle-Reinbacher
Dickinson-Hutson
Xhekaj-Mailloux

Yes, best d-core in the whole league. Develop Hutson at RD.

 

[waitin425]

I gotta say, i really really love Sam Dickinson. If Lindstrom is gone before us, he woul be right up there with Iginla for me. Even if he’s LD.

There is as close to zero bust risk with Dickinson as there can be. His ceiling is Blues version of Pietrangelo. His floor is Habs version of Petry.

 

[le_sean]

I saw the list you posted and all of them save Niedermayer before Anaheim were big time point producers. Niedermayer, once out of NJs system, was one of the best producing defensemen. Heck, 1998 had Lidstrom, Niedermayer and Zubov as the top 3 scoring D's. All guys with multiple top 1-2-3-5-10 finishes in scoring.

Yeah they got points, like Pietrangelo. The argument isn’t that a defenceman with 0 points and elite defensively is better than a defenceman that gets 80 points. The argument is that the 20-30 point difference doesn’t overcome the bad defensive habits.

 

[sampollock]

habs need players to drive to the net with the puck. Lidstrom is that?? not sure.
no more guys on the wall, hoping not to get hit, take that puck in and rip it

 

[ReHabs]

Does the Moar Big crowd think we should draft Silayev? Why or why not?

 

[Andrei79]

Yeah they got points, like Pietrangelo. The argument isn’t that a defenceman with 0 points and elite defensively is better than a defenceman that gets 80 points. The argument is that the 20-30 point difference doesn’t overcome the bad defensive habits.

They didn't just get points. They were some of the premiere offensive defensemen for their generation. Lidstrom was the top scoring defensemen or top 3 regularly. Pietrangelo has 3 top 10 finishes and only one of them within the top 5 (as fifth). Put the guys you named in this scoring environment and they're 70-90 point defensemen.

 

[le_sean]

I said that the best Dmen are also the most productive Dmen. And they are.

You gave a few counter examples so let's go through them:

Niklas Lidstrom won cups in 97, 98, 2002, and 2008. In those seasons he was 5th, 1st, 2nd and 1st in dman scoring. In 1998, the top three scoring Dmen were three of your examples, Scottie, Nik, and Zubov in that order. 2007, the top dman scorer was Scott Niedermayer. Pronger was 7th.

How you thought listing several of the most productive Dmen of their generation was any kind of a counter to the claim that the best Dmen are also the most productive ones is beyond me.

Okay replace Lidstrom with Chara. Was Karlsson better than Chara because he got 20 more points per season? Same era.

They didn't just get points. They were some of the premiere offensive defensemen for their generation. Lidstrom was the top scoring defensemen or top 3 regularly. Pietrangelo has 3 top 10 finishes and only one of them within the top 5 (as fifth). Put the guys you named in this scoring environment and they're 70-90 point defensemen.

And put Lidstrom on the 90s Habs and he likely gets 40 points a season. Karlsson on the Sharks got 100.

 

[Habsrule]

Does the Moar Big crowd think we should draft Silayev? Why or why not?

I wouldn’t be opposed to it but only if Lindstrom, Demidov and Levshunov are picked in some order of 2 through 4.

 

[Andrei79]

Okay replace Lidstrom with Chara. Was Karlsson better than Chara because he got 20 more points per season? Same era.


And put Lidstrom on the 90s Habs and he likely gets 40 points a season. Karlsson on the Sharks got 100.

Malahkov got 40 points on the 90s Habs. Lidstrom would still produce a ton. Youd also expect any player to go through the ebbs and flows of different eras and team success, so he'd eventually benefit from the post lockout Habs that saw guys like Markov and Souray score 60.

As far as Chara goes, isn't that the point ? You have to point to a freak of nature.

 

[le_sean]

Malahkov got 40 points on the 90s Habs. Lidstrom would still produce a ton. Youd also expect any player to go through the ebbs and flows of different eras and team success, so he'd eventually benefit from the post lockout Habs that saw guys like Markov and Souray score 60.

As far as Chara goes, isn't that the point ? You have to point to a freak of nature.

I’m pointing out Chara to drive home the idea that more points doesn’t mean better. He’s an obvious player where that isn’t the case. Just like Pietrangelo>Karlsson.

 

[Seb]

habs need players to drive to the net with the puck. Lidstrom is that?? not sure.
no more guys on the wall, hoping not to get hit, take that puck in and rip it

He does drive the net and he craves physicality.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Okay replace Lidstrom with Chara. Was Karlsson better than Chara because he got 20 more points per season? Same era.

Zdeno Chara is among the most productive DMen in his generation, and is thus also not a good counter example to the claim that "the most productive DMen are also the best DMen." I agree, Zdeno Chara was a fantastic dman. He also had multiple 50 point seasons. I think you just don't know who the most productive DMen are, you've whiffed on so many examples.

 

[waffledave]

Does the Moar Big crowd think we should draft Silayev? Why or why not?

He's big but nothing I've seen shows he plays with an edge. He's not Chara.

 

[le_sean]

Zdeno Chara is among the most productive DMen in his generation, and is thus also not a good counter example to the claim that "the most productive DMen are also the best DMen." I agree, Zdeno Chara was a fantastic dman. He also had multiple 50 point seasons. I think you just don't know who the most productive DMen are, you've whiffed on so many examples.

Yes, like Pietrangelo. It’s like you’re ignoring the entire basis of the conversation. I assume you’re just being purposely obtuse.

How did the Penguins do by the way? They added elite 100 point defenceman Erik Karlsson to a team that always makes the playoffs. I assume they went on a deep playoff run.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yes, like Pietrangelo. It’s like you’re ignoring the entire basis of the conversation. I assume you’re just being purposely obtuse.

So, I made a claim, you gave several counter examples, none of which actually counter my claim, in fact they all strengthen it, sometimes to an hilarious extent (Nik, Scottie, and Zubov being 123 in one year was hilarious), and now you're just being mean.

I think you just kinda lost the argument. It's okay, it happens sometimes.

 

[Redux91]

Karlsson was a 100 point player a couple of years ago. And he should actually have four Norris trophies.

The team also finished dead last.

 

[Team_Spirit]

habs need players to drive to the net with the puck. Lidstrom is that?? not sure.
no more guys on the wall, hoping not to get hit, take that puck in and rip it

From what I've read your guy is Iginla. Always 1st on puck and fearless.

People say the Habs passed on Michkov so they will pick Demidov if he's there..I think they passed on Leonard so Iginla makes sense as both project as gritty offensive wingers.

 

[le_sean]

So, I made a claim, you gave several counter examples, none of which actually counter my claim, in fact they all strengthen it, sometimes to an hilarious extent (Nik, Scottie, and Zubov being 123 in one year was hilarious), and now you're just being mean.

I think you just kinda lost the argument. It's okay, it happens sometimes.

Wow, they were 1-2-3 one year. I guess Jamie Benn is a perennial Art Ross candidate.

Again, you’re completely twisting the argument because you thought people would be like “yeah Karlsson! Pietrangelo sucks” but no one agrees.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Wow, they were 1-2-3 one year. I guess Jamie Benn is a perennial Art Ross candidate.

This is getting embarrassing lol.

 

[le_sean]

This is getting embarrassing lol.

So is ignoring the initial argument and changing the parameters. Have a good one.

 

[Andrei79]

So is ignoring the initial argument and changing the parameters. Have a good one.

The initial argument was that the best defensemen are also the most productive ones. It's a tough argument to disprove.

 

[le_sean]

The initial argument was that the best defensemen are also the most productive ones. It's a tough argument to disprove.

So why do they rarely win anything but individual awards. As fans, are we cheering Norris victories or Cup victories? Because guys like Drew Doughty and Alex Pietrangelo contribute to team success more than guys like Quinn Hughes and Erik Karlsson.

Waiting for someone to say “but Drew is productive”. 36 points and 37 points the two seasons his team won the Cup.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Quick poll, top 3 Canadiens defencemen of the past 20 years.