2024 IIHF Division IB

[SoundAndFury]

Btw It's sad to see that you can't even argue with someone who is usually against Chinese hockey.

The sad part is labeling people into "pro" and "against" Chinese hockey. This is about trying to determine their real strength from very limited evidence. Not about how China is bad at hockey and is never going to be any good.

I don't think us, as hockey fans, aren't against any particular nation playing hockey. It's unfortunate you think people neccessarily need to pick a side in a pretty trivial discussion.

 

[Albatros]

Of course everyone is free to set such boundaries but usually D1B was marked by teams having a mix of professional and semi-professional players. Countries like Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Korea (without imports), the Netherlands, Ukraine pretty much always fit this description. Croatia made a feature when they finally naturalized some pros. To progress to D1A you would usually need a fully professional team like GB, Poland or Korea (with imports) would usually attempt to have.

These are the lines that maped out the differences between divisions to me. Even if recent events shook things up a lot, they still remain true to me because at some point the world will come back to it and that's what the teams should strive for to get to the next level. China, as it is now, has very few players that would actually make it at the lowest level of European pro hockey.

Some of your arguments barely make any sense. Like:

staying in 1B "achieved as early as possible". So we are applauding the team for having a favorable schedule at the start now? Or acting like it's not the schedule that decided this?

" I see no team in Division 2 that could do more to challenge them than the opposition they've been facing now" - you don't see the Netherlands with 20 of their best players present challenging China more? You don't see Croatia with Katic, Rendulic, Idzan brothers etc. challenging China more? So what are you basing these assesments on?

Yes China was a good, disciplined team. And Estonia only lost to Ukraine 5-3 in a very close game in the OGQ only few months ago. And we finished 3rd in D1A 2 years ago. That's not how the strength of hockey country is measured though, is it? It's determined by a foundation it has for a continuos success and how is China doing there?

"Could just as well have been a 2:1 hockey game if China got one of their 15 shots in." - Yes and China could have lost both games against Spain and Netherlands since they got outshot in both. You either accept that was just likely as them scoring against Lithuania or your whole argument here is redundant.

Doesn't matter what the schedule is, you have tournament goals and you achieve them, job done. They didn't beat the Netherlands and Spain because of the schedule, but because they were the better team. If the Dutch are not happy with their current roster, maybe they should bring in other players next time? That's all on them and nobody else. Croatia will get to show what they can do next year, last year they were significantly worse than Spain who now lost to China 7:1 with by and large the same roster.

China's foundation is in a well-coached team that is together most of the year, including now in summer as they will do a tour of Japan after this tournament. Many of their opponents only get together a few times a year, some only once. Having a couple of seasoned pros when you don't play well as a unit is worth only so much.

 

[SoundAndFury]

This whole discussion at this point revolves around result this and result that. Sounds like sticking your head in the sand to me. But I guess nothing more to add from either of us at this point.

 

[Albatros]

If you don't think a team that stays in the D1B division doesn't fit "your idea" of a D1B team, it just means the hockey world isn't what you thought it was anymore. I don't think Team China is that strong this year, maybe none of Chinese fans thought they could avoid relegation before the tournament started, but if you look at how many games for kids there are in China now, if you know that China will build up a national league next season, maybe it's unfair to talk about the "foundation".
Btw It's sad to see that you can't even argue with someone who is usually against Chinese hockey.

Remains to be seen what kind of a national league may emerge in the end though, if I remember correctly the traditional clubs Harbin and Qiqihar only finished 3rd and 5th at the national championships this winter. Otherwise the scene is now dominated by the Beijing Hockey Association who have multiple teams.

 

[PanniniClaus]

well... we have 4 pages on Div 1 B. That's something.

 

[SoundAndFury]

well... we have 4 pages on Div 1 B. That's something.

It's hard to convince people they didn't see the unicorn when they are sure they have. Especially when they double, triple, quadruple down on it and basically plead ignorance when the tangible evidence against it mounts.

That's how Aito Iguchi thread went what, 50 pages? Very similar arc to this one.

 

[Albatros]

You're too fixated on club fortunes of individual players, China themselves should have won last year with their Kunlun posse if that was decisive. Yet instead we have Japan up and likely surviving in Division 1 A with a team led by a player from Japanese college hockey with zero pro or semi-pro experience. That's a real Aito Iguchi for you.

 

[HungryFrank]

Croatia will get to show what they can do next year, last year they were significantly worse than Spain who now lost to China 7:1 with by and large the same roster.

this is a pro/semi-pro level. Teams sometimes enter the game with wrong stance and it's all downhill from there.

Croatia beat GB 4:0 one year, does that make Croatia able to repeat it? Hell no. A tier lower a more extreme example: Georgia has finished 2nd last year in D2A, beat Croatia pretty dominantly and this year 2nd in D2B with only 1 or 2 players less, do we say that Belgium would win D2A because of it? No. Those comparisons are useless. One has to take into account: general player development, team play and results to compare teams.

As far ss Croatia goes, yes, I know they are terrible and Mirko Đumić is Gretzky of this era, but last year they went to WM with questionable ice surfaces, no outlook and next year they'll have at least 10 players with 1 season of Alps behind them, two teams with unobstructed access to ice whole season, etc.
I think they will be more dangerous than one thinks and I wouldn't draw conclusions from 2 years ago

 

[Albatros]

One year GB beat Kazakhstan 11:2 in their final game, only to be overtaken by Slovenia who beat Estonia 16:0 a few hours later and gained promotion based on goal difference. Every year has different dynamics, you just need to adapt to it each time.

Georgia's "adaptation" has been to bring in imported players with questionable eligibility, in the end they're where they belong.

 

[HungryFrank]

so China adapted good this year and they may win a medal because Estonia has a bad tournament.

Anyway, in 2017-18 China was a step behind an "extended elevator group" Netherlands, Spain, Serbia and Croatia and now they improved to be a member of that group. If next year they beat those teams again, I'll say they start moving to likes of Estonia, stable D1B teams.

 

[trust no one]

My two cents on China.
Last time they went with domestic roster is 2019. (D2A). They lost against Serbia 6:5, Spain 5:3, Croatia 7:0 (without Rendulić), Australia 3:2 and only beat Belgium 4:0.
Five years later they beat Spain 7:1, Netherlands 3:0, didn't embarrass themselves against Lithuania. I would say they did make some babysteps progress.

 

[jonas2244]

19:39	2 min	ESP	18. MURATET Quim	Tripping
11:06	2 min	ESP	18. MURATET Quim	Tripping
08:53	2 min	ESP	18. MURATET Quim	Hooking

Quim Muratet had probably better periods before.

Still 0-0 in relegation battle between the Netherlands and Spain.

 

[Albatros]

Muratet's stickwork has been exquisite, not that the Dutch have made much of it so far.

 

[SoundAndFury]

You're too fixated on club fortunes of individual players, China themselves should have won last year with their Kunlun posse if that was decisive.

Exactly. That team had NHL-level coaching and played most of the year together as well. Didn't you say those are the main strengths of this current China as well?

You are too fixated on literally 2 good, lucky results China has managed to achieve in this tournament. You go as far as to not even acknowledge at any point the Dutch team they won against was depleted to the point of irrelevance, for example. Yet post after post you keep banging the same "but they got the result" drum. How is it fixation on our parts but not yours?

 

[SoundAndFury]

Yet instead we have Japan up and likely surviving in Division 1 A with a team led by a player from Japanese college hockey with zero pro or semi-pro experience.

Best Chinese player is 18 as well. You do understand these players are not what we are talking about when it comes to pro/not pro argument.

The real Iguchi is playing somewhere in Wenatchee.

I would say they did make some babysteps progress.

I think that's the extent to which everyone in the thread agrees.

 

[Albatros]

Exactly. That team had NHL-level coaching and played most of the year together as well. Didn't you say those are the main strengths of this current China as well?

You are too fixated on literally 2 good, lucky results China has managed to achieve in this tournament. You go as far as to not even acknowledge at any point the Dutch team they won against was depleted to the point of irrelevance, for example. Yet post after post you keep banging the same "but they got the result" drum. How is it fixation on our parts but not yours?

Last year they had makeshift coaching because of the pandemic and war situation. Jeremy Smith even filling in as the goalie coach with no previous experience as Kaarela couldn't go either to Russia or to China.

If the Dutch can't form a World Championship team good enough for Division 1 then they don't deserve to be there, it's entirely irrelevant which players they theoretically have that don't want to be a part of the national team.

 

[SoundAndFury]

If the Dutch can't form a World Championship team good enough for Division 1 then they don't deserve to be there, it's entirely irrelevant which players they theoretically have that don't want to be a part of the national team.

And yet China beating the placeholder team is relevant? Again, just like with SOG argument. It either is irrelevant in both cases or in neither.

Do we agree that the Chinese beat the team that shouldn't (doesn't deserve in your words) to be in D1B to begin with? Because in big part that's what the argument is about.

 

[trust no one]

Tilburg graver of Dutch hockey ?

 

[SoundAndFury]

So Dutch players sabotage their NT enough to get it relegated which I guess does send whatever message they wanted to send.

 

[Albatros]

And yet China beating the placeholder team is relevant? Again, just like with SOG argument. It either is irrelevant in both cases or in neither.

Do we agree that the Chinese beat the team that shouldn't (doesn't deserve in your words) to be in D1B to begin with? Because in big part that's what the argument is about.

Sure, this year the Dutch are the team that didn't deserve to be there. China proved that they are a Division 1 team at the moment. It's not any more complicated than that.

Congratulations to Spain, they definitely did more to stay up and well-deserved in the end even if it was as close as it can get.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Tilburg graver of Dutch hockey ?

As I wrote earlier, Mason is the coach of both Tilburg and Dutch NT and he was kinda angry when talking about the players who refused to report so this appears as some kind of players vs. coach [backed by federation] or players vs. federation [backed by the coach] situation.

 

[Albatros]

Mason already retired from Tilburg, but I guess it does say something that more players didn't want to join what could be his final tournament after 45 years in Dutch hockey. Still, he's not the first or second person to blame for the desolate state of the game there.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Slessarevski with another mind boggling penalty and he is absolutely lucky to not get thrown out of the game.

Anyway, this is the only way China was going to get something in this game and they are getting. Estonian PK, by the way, was probably their weakest link all tournament long.

 

[Albatros]

Congratulations to Estonia, wasn't pretty at any point but a medal is a medal.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Final shot clock 31-13. Just the confirmation, I think everything what could be said about it has been said.