2024 HHOF

[K Fleur]

I remember reading Fleury’s book like 15 years ago expecting to find more insight into a tragic and brave person. Instead it was hard to balance how much of an asshole the guy is with how much empathy I feel for him as a victim.

 

[MadLuke]

Gonchar, like Housley, was probably overrated in the voting because his flashy scoring stats are easy to measure, whereas the defensive impact of someone like Weber is subtler. Ultimately, I think Weber is a legitimate, although lower-end, Hall of Fame defensemen (the biggest strike against him is he didn't do much in the playoffs).

One could say the type of defensive play Weber had was flashy, not subtle, a bit like a Volchenkov, Orpik...

Big defenceman, Top 10 in hits and blocked shots type, one of the strongest Sherwood in front of the net and in the corners, anyone from the most surface fans, tend to assume good defensively. It is not some acquired taste that need to read positioning, sticks, how they correctly angle, puck exit execution, communication, a lot of what Weber was elite in his own zone was right in your face and coded as good defensively by common wisdom.

Weber was not playing that much PK in his career for a defenseman like that (probably because Hamhuis-Suter and other was there) and did not look particularly good in those fancy advanced stats (he was the type to generate those stats are wrong talk, with go win a puck battle all night long in the corner and tell he is not good in the defensive zone reaction).

And Weber had those flashy offensive stats going on for him as well, he was often near the top in goals among defenceman with that 20 goals slapshot.

 

[GRob83]

Shea Weber
2010/2011 1st Team All-Star and Norris runner up in a year when Lubomir Visnovsky should have won and Weber was no better than Christian Ehrhoff who was also not even a finalist.
2011/2012 1st Team All-Star and Norris runner up (well deserved).
2013-2014 2nd Team All-Star and 3rd in Norris voting (he was -2 for the year)
2014-2015 2nd Team All-Star and 4th in Norris voting (8th in Point Share among defenseman)
So other than reputation based voting bias what are his NHL accomplishments?

From 00/01 - 09/10 Gonchar was 2nd in defenseman scoring, 1st in goals, 1st in points per game and finished his career with 10 seasons of 50 or more points. Weber had 3.

Gonchar is in the Top 20 All-Time for defenseman scoring and is the All-Time highest scoring Russian defenseman and was a 4X Olympian. He also won a Stanley Cup and played in the Finals 2 additional times and has been an assistant/development coach since 2017.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Shea Weber
2010/2011 1st Team All-Star and Norris runner up in a year when Lubomir Visnovsky should have won and Weber was no better than Christian Ehrhoff who was also not even a finalist.
2011/2012 1st Team All-Star and Norris runner up (well deserved).
2013-2014 2nd Team All-Star and 3rd in Norris voting (he was -2 for the year)
2014-2015 2nd Team All-Star and 4th in Norris voting (8th in Point Share among defenseman)
So other than reputation based voting bias what are his NHL accomplishments?

From 00/01 - 09/10 Gonchar was 2nd in defenseman scoring, 1st in goals, 1st in points per game and finished his career with 10 seasons of 50 or more points. Weber had 3.

Gonchar is in the Top 20 All-Time for defenseman scoring and is the All-Time highest scoring Russian defenseman and was a 4X Olympian. He also won a Stanley Cup and played in the Finals 2 additional times and has been an assistant/development coach since 2017.

and was a turnstile defensively at his best.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If Gonchar wasn't a Capital...would we be saying that *removes glasses* Christian Ehrhoff was better than Shea Weber, but based on Weber's reputation of being a zero-time Norris finalist on a small-market team he got voted ahead of him by a definitive margin...

For this guy...

 

[GRob83]

and was a turnstile defensively at his best.

Funny you should say that considering his career defensive point share is above the following Hall of Famers:

Mark Howe, Borje Salming, Kevin Lowe, Guy Lapointe, Shea Weber, Brian Leetch, Rob Blake and Doug Wilson.

And above current players:

Mark Giordano, Alex Pietrangelo, Ryan McDonagh, Victor Hedman, Kris Letang, John Carlson and Roman Josi.

So it's perfectly fine for a forward to be inducted for their defense but not a defenseman for their offense?

 

[Michael Farkas]

"Defensive point shares"...oh, it's a prank call...

 

[GRob83]

"Defensive point shares"...oh, it's a prank call...

It's a calculated system, unlike NHL Awards Voting.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

If Gonchar wasn't a Capital...would we be saying that *removes glasses* Christian Ehrhoff was better than Shea Weber, but based on Weber's reputation of being a zero-time Norris finalist on a small-market team he got voted ahead of him by a definitive margin...

For this guy...

Erhoff was never better than Weber

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's a calculated system, unlike NHL Awards Voting.

So, because it's calculated - where certain things are assigned values by some guy - it's not automatically not biased?

So, when it spits out that Marc-Edouard Vlasic is better for his career (despite his last five seasons) than Sergei Gonchar...you want Vlasic in the HOF then too, correct?

Erhoff was never better than Weber

Yeah, we know...there's a person here trying to hawk some nonsense off a script that he hasn't fully read yet.

Truth be told, I actually like Gonchar. And I really like late career Gonchar. But this is just a terrible way to go about promoting him, it's so hollow, and it's just gonna make us dislike Gonchar more haha

 

[GRob83]

So, because it's calculated - where certain things are assigned values by some guy - it's not automatically not biased?

So, when it spits out that Marc-Edouard Vlasic is better for his career (despite his last five seasons) than Sergei Gonchar...you want Vlasic in the HOF then too, correct?


Yeah, we know...there's a person here trying to hawk some nonsense off a script that he hasn't fully read yet.

Truth be told, I actually like Gonchar. And I really like late career Gonchar. But this is just a terrible way to go about promoting him, it's so hollow, and it's just gonna make us dislike Gonchar more haha

I'm not suggesting Gonchar to be inducted for his defense, which improved greatly as his career went on. There is no denying that Gonchar was one of the premier offensive defenseman in the league for 2 decades and for 10 years was the highest goal scoring defenseman and had the highest points per game. If a forward such as Guy Carbonneau (career high 26 goals/5 seasons of 50 points) can get in for his defense then why can't a defenseman such as Gonchar (career high 26 goals/10 seasons of 50 points) get in for his offense? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[MadArcand]

Gonchar was two tiers below both Weber and Zubov. What kind of "defenseman" can manage a 21+10 season? That'd make Rick Nash proud, except Rick Nash was also much better at defense than Gonchar.

 

[GRob83]

Erhoff was never better than Weber

He was statistically better for the 2 years he was in Vancouver:
09/10-10/11 Ehrhoff 159 GP - 28 Goals - 66 Assists - 94 Points - +55
09/10-10/11 Weber 160 GP - 32 Goals - 59 Assists - 91 Points - +7

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not suggesting Gonchar to be inducted for his defense, which improved greatly as his career went on. There is no denying that Gonchar was one of the premier offensive defenseman in the league for 2 decades and for 10 years was the highest goal scoring defenseman and had the highest points per game. If a forward such as Guy Carbonneau (career high 26 goals/5 seasons of 50 points) can get in for his defense then why can't a defenseman such as Gonchar (career high 26 goals/10 seasons of 50 points) get in for his offense? It just doesn't make sense.

It did improve as his career went on.
I agree that Gonchar was a very good offensive defenseman for a long time.
I won't check those stats, but I have no reason to assume you'd lie about them.
I don't even think the Carbonneau analogy is bad.

This is a better argument right here than lashing out and calling everyone that doesn't agree with you biased (like the hundreds of writers that cast a vote for Shea Weber - who they would certainly not be beholden to at any point, but definitely not in the years you mentioned - over Christian Ehrhoff).

Point shares is a joke. It's not a good formula, it's just *a* formula. It's a biased formula too. Just because it's math, doesn't make it automatically objective.

You're a big count-up-the-points guy, that's fine. Sell it on that because we're obviously not gonna get to a point where you're going to breakdown any Gonchar video for us from his Capitals days (though, that would be the best). Coming in here and trying to sell some concocted "reputation bias" for young Nashville Predators 2nd round pick Shea Weber over famously-did-not-bet-on-himself Christian Ehrhoff makes you a justified magnet for rotten vegetable hurling haha

 

[GRob83]

Gonchar was two tiers below both Weber and Zubov. What kind of "defenseman" can manage a 21+10 season? That'd make Rick Nash proud, except Rick Nash was also much better at defense than Gonchar.

21 goals in 53 games. Scoring at a 33 goal pace as a defenseman on an absolutely abysmal team that was decimated by injuries. But no reference to the 10 years that he had the highest points per game of all NHL defenseman including the most goals.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Rick Nash was also much better at defense than Gonchar.

Oh man, this is gonna get really interesting...Sergei Gonchar vs Rick Nash...defensively...in the 2024 HHOF induction (which has passed) thread hahaha

Let's go!

 

[seventieslord]

It's a calculated system, unlike NHL Awards Voting.

It's not calculated with anything all that relevant

 

[rmartin65]

I’m here for the Nash/Gonchar defense discussion.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

He was statistically better for the 2 years he was in Vancouver:
09/10-10/11 Ehrhoff 159 GP - 28 Goals - 66 Assists - 94 Points - +55
09/10-10/11 Weber 160 GP - 32 Goals - 59 Assists - 91 Points - +7

no just no

you're also leaving out the difference in quality of team played for, if you switch them and put Weber on the nucks for ehrhoff on the preds the Canucks would be a much better team while the preds would probably be worse off.

Do you not understand how stupid this sounds? like is this really your opinion? or are you just trolling? Because this is just idiocy

Its like the people claiming Crosby is better than McDavid based on cups wins lol

 

[MadLuke]

I guess when Nash wanted because of his quite something size, skating and ability could be good at defense (in the Olympics for example), but defense is a lot about having the mental-energy-will of doing it. I am sure Mario wanting to be best defensive player in the league would have been a really good one.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I’m surprised at the backlash against Weber… Has it really been that long since virtually everyone agreed he was a top 5 defenseman, year in and year out?

 

[MeHateHe]

I’m just surprisednotsurprised Colin Campbell weaseled his way into the hall. Dude is the poster boy for NHL corruption and his induction is at once outrageous and entirely on brand.

 

[MadLuke]

you're also leaving out the difference in quality of team played for,

Even relative to their teams, Ehrhoff having better stats is not that crazy:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Weber was middle of the pack has a Preds stats wise in goals for/against, shots for/against (having Ryan Suter, Hamuis type on your team can do that)

Ehrhoff had the bset GF/GA by far on his own team (with a better deployment to have good stats)

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

I am not sure how well stats captured what Weber brought that well, he tended to not look particularly good on them (outside obviously goals and points scored, where he was among top of the league level).

I’m just surprisednotsurprised Colin Campbell weaseled his way into the hall. Dude is the poster boy for NHL corruption and his induction is at once outrageous and entirely on brand.

From sticking up for your own child to the controversial said stuff leaked, we can imagine many voters not only had little problem with it, but loved it (and did for their childs stuff like that and said the same stuff during their life in the past).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Weber wasn't much of a puck carrier, and he often played on defensive-minded (Trotz's Predators, Julien's Habs) and center-less teams...that doesn't help him pick up the requisite.......three (?) assists...he would have needed to avoid the Ehrhoff comparison...

 

[Soundgarden]

I'll be in the minority I'm sure, but what makes Weber so substantially better than Gonchar that he gets in on 1st ballot? Other than being Canadian of course

Norrits Record:

Weber: 2,2,3,4,4,6,7,8,10
Gonchar: 4,4,4,5,6,7,9,9,9

Weber had more goals in almost three hundred less games.