2024 Hhof

[Soundgarden]

He was statistically better for the 2 years he was in Vancouver:
09/10-10/11 Ehrhoff 159 GP - 28 Goals - 66 Assists - 94 Points - +55
09/10-10/11 Weber 160 GP - 32 Goals - 59 Assists - 91 Points - +7

09 - 10 Nashville Predators
Hornqvist and Steve Sullivan lead our team with 51 points we had a 30 goal scorer in Hornqvist, Erat was 2nd place with 21 goals.

09 -10 Vancouver Canucks
Raymond, Samuelsson, Burrows,Kesler had 53,53,67,75 points and 25,25,30,35 goals.

Oh yeah and the Sedins scored 85 points and 112 points and with 29 goals each.

Two totally different teams. The fact that Nashville made the playoffs should tell you how important Weber was.

 

[MadLuke]

Two totally different teams

That did not stop Ryan Suter on those same Predators to be +33 those 2 season at 5v5 versus +6 for Weber.

Weber GF% with Suter: 55.62%, Without Suter: 38.5%
Suter GF with Weber: 55.62%, without Weber: 59%

Stats can be misleading obviously, but not sure if he is wrong about the stats being better, in absolute or relative to teammates on their own teams.

 

[Voight]

It's bizarre not to put Zetterberg in with Datsyuk considering how even and intertwined their careers are.

The Colin Campbell induction actually makes me sick. A guy whose biggest legacy is bullying referees to favour his son's team somehow OBC'ing his way into the HHOF is even worse than the Vernon induction.

What gets me is... what did he actually do? He was a mediocre coach, then worked in the league office. It's not like he ever had the top job there. Hes being inducted as a builder, but never really did anything for the game of hockey.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That did not stop Ryan Suter on those same Predators to be +33 those 2 season at 5v5 versus +6 for Weber.

Weber GF% with Suter: 55.62%, Without Suter: 38.5%
Suter GF with Weber: 55.62%, without Weber: 59%

Stats can be misleading obviously, but not sure if he is wrong about the stats being better, in absolute or relative to teammates on their own teams.

Suter was better defensively, especially early on in their respective careers. That's part of the reason why I think Suter will Fernie Flaman his way into the HHOF in 20 years...

 

[JackSlater]

I remember reading Fleury’s book like 15 years ago expecting to find more insight into a tragic and brave person. Instead it was hard to balance how much of an asshole the guy is with how much empathy I feel for him as a victim.

Yeah he's an asshole and also bad things have happened to him. It's just how it is, really one of those should not impact how someone thinks of the other.

I’m surprised at the backlash against Weber… Has it really been that long since virtually everyone agreed he was a top 5 defenseman, year in and year out?

It's kind of weird. People just have short memories I guess, at least when it comes to non-spectacular players. Weber was relevant as recently as 2021 though.

 

[MS]

What gets me is... what did he actually do? He was a mediocre coach, then worked in the league office. It's not like he ever had the top job there. Hes being inducted as a builder, but never really did anything for the game of hockey.

It appears that he worked on the HHOF selection committee for years and his friends have voted him in as a reward.

But yeah. Average player. Average coach. Supervised the referees for years - but was most notable for being outed for his corruption, and embarrassed the league. It's an absolute joke of an induction.

 

[Voight]

I'm not saying he'll be inducted (although I think he might be eventually), but I'd probably rather have Perry's career or one similar to it than Marleau's.

I'd rather have a high peak and a Hart and Rocket (and yes, he was lucky that Crosby got hurt that year), another elite season, a few top five goal scoring finishes and a Cup and a whole bunch of deep playoff runs and SCF appearances than a steady career of being a good top six guy and a ton of NHL games played and more than 500 goals and almost 1200 points while never coming close to winning any individual awards and having one career SCF appearance and losing it. I'm not suggesting Perry was the driving force behind those teams that went deep, just that I'd rather have that type of career than Marleau's. I do think Perry at his best was substantially superior to Marleau.

I wouldn't induct either; I have a feeling the HHOF will induct both. I'm positive Marleau will get in.

Perry is going to get in, I have no doubt about that. Obviously being a Hart winner his chances are high, but hes also the only guy other than Niedermayer to have won Mem Cup, WJC, Olympics, Stanley Cup, World Championship, World Cup. If he was a middling player it wouldn't make a difference but at his peak he was one of the best at his position.

 

[MadLuke]

I’m surprised at the backlash against Weber… Has it really been that long since virtually everyone agreed he was a top 5 defenseman, year in and year out?

Wonder if it happen as a career Predators (and very long tenured captain for them), PK Subban while a bit controversial with the risky late in the third play was beloved and made in part of the fanbase to fully embrace Weber, it took Subban declining hard and him being a major piece of beating the Leafs (he played 37 minutes of a 75 minutes game) to gain everyone.

And he did beat vocal Canadian fanbase, in the playoff has an Habs Captain playing a playoff style that you really love when he is on your team or as a third party observer, but when it is against you and the ref does not call it and you loose.....

 

[God]

He was statistically better for the 2 years he was in Vancouver:
09/10-10/11 Ehrhoff 159 GP - 28 Goals - 66 Assists - 94 Points - +55
09/10-10/11 Weber 160 GP - 32 Goals - 59 Assists - 91 Points - +7

I loved Ehrhoff in Vancouver and he was a stellar addition to the Canucks defense with his playstyle, but I don't think a single person on the planet would've taken Ehrhoff over Weber between 2009-2011.

 

[MS]

Weber is like Rob Blake to me - a guy I thought was really overrated because of the Big Tough Canadian thing but who on paper was clearly going to get in at some point. I just didn't think he'd fly in on the first ballot.

Ryan Suter to me was always the superior player but because he wasn't this 6'5 beast firing 100 MPH clappers from the point he never got the same recognition.

 

[Crosby2010]

I remember reading Fleury’s book like 15 years ago expecting to find more insight into a tragic and brave person. Instead it was hard to balance how much of an asshole the guy is with how much empathy I feel for him as a victim.

I believe he's been sober for about that amount of time too. Might of had a lot of bitterness when he wrote the book. Actually he definitely did have bitterness. Not sure now, but he does celebrate his sobriety these days and I think it was mid to late 2000s when he stayed on the wagon for good. As a player he totally deserves to be in, but I guess they don't want him in. At least not yet.

 

[Crosby2010]

The Colin Campbell thing has a stench of being part of the old boys club. I don't really see what was so special about him. He did the job as Bettman's right hand man for a little bit, but like others have said he wasn't a great player nor a great coach. Strange selection. Poile I agree with, we all do.

Okay, onto the players. Datsyuk was a no-brainer. They are complaining about Mogilny, but you know what, give me Datsyuk on my team over the erratic and inconsistent Mogilny 8 days a week. I don't understand how people just completely forgot about Mogilny's career and the reputation he had as mailing it in all over the place. Datsyuk could have added more to his resume had he not retired from the NHL in 2016. Played a few years in Russia but definitely wouldn't have hurt his legacy here. The only knock on him is that it took him a while to warm up to the playoffs. He was downright bad in the postseason before 2007, and then 2008 he wins the Cup and he was good after that. But his two-way play and magic with the puck can't be ignored. He is better than his stats depict. The perfect well oiled machine type of player.

Weber is a given. He wasn't spectacular, but he was certainly an elite defenseman for a long time. A long enough time to get in at least. If this is 2011 or 2012 and you asked if Weber is on track to the HHOF we all would have said yes. Two Norrises he could have easily had but didn't. You wish he had some playoff success and not in the darkness of Nashville and then Montreal. Did make the Cup final in 2021. But he's easily in there.

Roenick is a tough one. But once they added Turgeon you figure Roenick was next because he was better than Turgeon. Roenick's outspoken nature used to be something that the media loved him for, but I get the feeling this held him back over the years. Either way though, I am fine with not putting him in. He was really a perfect guy who was right on the "best of the Hall of Very Good" section. It just seems like every year the Hall adds a borderline (at best) guy and I don't know why. It weakens things. 2023 was Turgeon and Vernon. 2020 was Lowe and Wilson. 2019 Carbonneau (meh, either way) and you could say Zubov was hit or miss. Andreychuk in 2017. Housley 2015. And in the 2000s there was some black hole selections too. Roenick is better than some of these guys, but he definitely blends in as a guy where I would say didn't have to get in. Not by my standards anyway.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

shea weber dines on his killer performance in the 2010 olympics

because did anyone actually watch those nashville teams? i did, because they played my team in the playoffs, and anyone with eyes could see suter was the real stud.

but i feel like everyone else just saw a lot of goals and hits and filled in the blanks, because who was actually watching nashville games?

obviously weber was a very good dman and by HHOF standards he’s a no-brainer with his resume. but was he great? i would have loved to see the committee wait a few more years and let us all ask ourselves, do we really miss shea weber? do we remember him? does he feel like an omission?

because as the distant fifth guy behind doughty, karlsson, keith, and hedman (and i’d argue also behind suter) i don’t know that we really will miss him.

 

[The Panther]

I'm not getting the Colin Campbell thing, either. Is it only because he worked for the NHL office for a while? Like when Gil Stein elected himself to the Hall...?

The Hockey Hall of Shame... I can't wait until Bettman elects himself in over some legendary player.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

can't wait until Bettman elects himself in over some legendary player.

Don’t look at the class of 2018…

 

[K Fleur]

Weber fit the big physical defenseman with a booming slap shot mold to well for anybody to pay attention to anything else.

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah he's an asshole and also bad things have happened to him. It's just how it is, really one of those should not impact how someone thinks of the other.



It's kind of weird. People just have short memories I guess, at least when it comes to non-spectacular players. Weber was relevant as recently as 2021 though.

I guess his book is just what exposed me to how much of an asshole he is.

Like the guy spends half of it just shitting on his former teammates for mostly no reason.

 

[GRob83]

Norrits Record:

Weber: 2,2,3,4,4,6,7,8,10
Gonchar: 4,4,4,5,6,7,9,9,9

Weber had more goals in almost three hundred less games.

He didn't play in the dead-puck era.

 

[Soundgarden]

He didn't play in the dead-puck era.

He did play on a team with no 25 goal scorers most years. What he did on Nashville was impressive, most people never watched them during this time period though.

 

[895]

Surely Mogilny ahead of Roenick?

 

[GlitchMarner]

Surely Mogilny ahead of Roenick?

I've seen this posted more than once and I don't really get it.

What's the argument for Mogilny over Roenick?

People often point out that Roenick really only has three seasons at a high level, but Mogilny has just two at a superstar level.

I'd say Mogilny's 2001 and 2003 seasons are very good and perhaps underrated, but the same is true of Roenick's '99, '00 and '01 seasons.

So that's six very good to great seasons compared to four.

Roenick was also better in the playoffs and probably a better all-around player as well.


That said, after certain recent inductions, Mogilny definitely wouldn't stand out as a bad addition. I'm sure he'll get in.

 

[895]

I've seen this posted more than once and I don't really get it.

What's the argument for Mogilny over Roenick?

People often point out that Roenick really only has three seasons at a high level, but Mogilny has just two at a superstar level.

I'd say Mogilny's 2001 and 2003 seasons are very good and perhaps underrated, but the same is true of Roenick's '99, '00 and '01 seasons.

So that's six very good to great seasons compared to four.

Roenick was also better in the playoffs and probably a better all-around player as well.


That said, after certain recent inductions, Mogilny definitely wouldn't stand out as a bad addition. I'm sure he'll get in.

If you’re going to induct a player like Willie ORee for breaking the colour barrier despite being by far the worst player in the HHOF with a total of 45 GP, surely Mogilny who was actually an elite player and broke the Soviet barrier and changed the NHL forever deserves something


Though tbh this might be more an argument against ORee

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If you’re going to induct a player like Willie ORee for breaking the colour barrier despite being by far the worst player in the HHOF with a total of 45 GP, surely Mogilny who was actually an elite player and broke the Soviet barrier and changed the NHL forever deserves something


Though tbh this might be more an argument against ORee

Nechayev broke the Russian barrier in 1983

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If you’re going to induct a player like Willie ORee for breaking the colour barrier despite being by far the worst player in the HHOF with a total of 45 GP, surely Mogilny who was actually an elite player and broke the Soviet barrier and changed the NHL forever deserves something


Though tbh this might be more an argument against ORee

i think the common misapprehension is willie o’ree wasn’t inducted because he was the first Black guy to play in the league. he was inducted, as a builder, because after he played in the league he leveraged his achievement to tirelessly do grassroots work to diversify the game.

so the comparison with inducting mogilny, as a player, for the unique distinction of being the first russian guy doesn’t square.

 

[MadLuke]

He didn't play in the dead-puck era.

The average team in 1998 scored 216 goals, in 2014 it was 219.

Weber played 734 of his 1038 regular season games in the 2008 to 2017 really low scoring era, only 110 games or so in the high scoring 06-07 and old weber played a bit in the 2018 2021 higher scoring one.

Gonchar played 95-1997 and 06-07, low scoring fro everything else, probably not that different.