2024 HHOF

[GMR]

I'm not saying he deserves to get in.

Just that he will

There’s little doubt that Marleau will make it. I’d be surprised if he’s not first ballot.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

I only see one season worthy of potential HHOF consideration for Marleau (2009-2010). Besides that, durable player, terrible playoff performer, won't be remembered.

 

[DitchMarner]

I don't like that I'm forced to come to the defense of Marleau here because I don't want him in the HOF...but, hell, I'd take Marleau's 2003 to 2014 over Bondra's whole career. Probably Bernie Nicholls too.

Bondra was pretty one-dimensional, but at least he stood out as one of the very best in his prime at the thing he was best at: Goal scoring. Leading the League in goals twice is quite a big deal. He was also fourth in goals twice.

If I'm evaluating them based on all-around play or total value brought to their teams over their careers, sure, I might put Marleau ahead. However, when we're talking about two players that I don't think were quite good enough for enshrinement to begin with, I'd rather have the guy that has the sexier bullet points get in if one has to.

Nicholls is still talked about for his 150 point season, which is far above anything Marleau ever did.

But there's really no point in going on and on about this. I remember reading debates about whether Turgeon would ever get in for years and there was a sense that his induction was likely inevitable. Marleau will definitely be inducted into the HHOF. It's really only a matter of when.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I don't like that I'm forced to come to the defense of Marleau here because I don't want him in the HOF...but, hell, I'd take Marleau's 2003 to 2014 over Bondra's whole career. Probably Bernie Nicholls too.

Bondra sure (though I dont know if anyone is putting him up as a HOF'er), but hard no on Nicholls.

Nicholls in 89 did more than Marleau did in his career. 70-80-150, 2nd in goals, 4th in points and 7-5-12 in 10 in the playoffs

 

[Michael Farkas]

I can read too. I don't care about one or two seasons here or there...(where's the Maruk love then?)

I know that he and Gretzky weren't together at ES, but Nicholls suddenly had like 65 special teams points that season. I'm not saying it wasn't good...but what's more indicative of him as a player? The 262 points in his first two seasons with 99 on the team or the 60ish points per year he did for the other 16 seasons?

He was so valuable following the 150 point season that he was immediately dealt for Granato and Sandstrom...

 

[MadLuke]

Marleau played a lot of 98-04 and 11-17 hockey + old age hockey in there, compiling and low per game numbers can be a bit of double picking.

From 06 to 14 Marleau is 5th in goals scored, he scored goals like Heatley-Staal-Nash did, now I just named 3 players that could easily never make it to the HHOF so that not a strong argument to put it him, but those were good goalscorer of that era,

604 pts during that stretch that Gretzlaf, Spezza more than Perry. (again a lot of players that could miss the HHOF obviously), but Marleau was the center with the most goals in that window in the NHL, that was not a surprise pick to make Team Canada in 2010 and 2014 (which were not easy teams to make).

We should be not revisionist history it too much like he was just 2012-2020 Max Paciorretty durign his prime with a longer career around. Maybe uncomfortably close to that but clearly above that.

 

[seventieslord]

....60ish points per year? I'm not a Nicholls HHOF advocate either, but C'mon....

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Marleau played a lot of 98-04 and 11-17 hockey + old age hockey in there, compiling and low per game numbers can be a bit of double picking.

From 06 to 14 Marleau is 5th in goals scored, he scored goals like Heatley-Staal-Nash did, now I just named 3 players that could easily never make it to the HHOF so that not a strong argument to put it him, but those were good goalscorer of that era,

604 pts during that stretch that Gretzlaf, Spezza more than Perry. (again a lot of players that could miss the HHOF obviously), but Marleau was the center with the most goals in that window in the NHL, that was not a surprise pick to make Team Canada in 2010 and 2014 (which were not easy teams to make).

We should be not revisionist history it too much like he was just 2012-2020 Max Paciorretty durign his prime with a longer career around. Maybe uncomfortably close to that but clearly above that.

Park Pacioretty next to Thornton for a decade and he would've matched what Marleau did. Funny enough, Pacioretty has more Top 10 goal finishes than Marleau 3 to 2 (4th, 5th, 8th vs 4th, 6th)

 

[GRob83]

There have been 16 players to score 500 goals since 1990. The only players with a higher Goals/GP than Bondra over that time are Ovechkin, Hull and Stamkos meaning he's either tied with or ahead of Selanne, Crosby, Sakic, Shanahan, Tkachuk, Jagr, Sundin, Iginla, Hossa, Modano, Recchi and Marleau.

The Sweet 16 since 1990

 

[MadLuke]

He scored 31 in his last 204 game and played almost all the DPE games and all the 2011-2017 low scoring era game.

From 98 to 04, scoring at .40 goal per games, you were in the Top 20 scorer in the league, that Shanahan-Guerin-Hejduk, above Satan-Mogilny.

From 2011 to 2017, scoring at a 0.4 gpp, you were a top 10 goalscorer, that Rick Nash-Tavares production, better than Kessel-Carter-Seguin.

That 558+540 games of Marleau career in a very tight scoring era.

After 2017 scoring was up but Marleau was old.

It is not surprising that him and Eric Staal are in that lower ggp with a lot of goals (without being Ron Francis) type because of when they had a lot of their primes.

Almost all those 500 goals with a better gpg than Marleau either played a lot of games in the 70s to 1996 window or are quite legendary scorer.

Modano-Hossa are maybe the only 2 above him that does not look good, they are full-on all-timer HHOF obviously, but played all of the DPE, also 2011-2017 for Hossa while doing much more than scoring goals.

All the others eitehr were in super high scoring era or Ovechkin-Bobby Hull-Maurice Richard-Crosby-Howe-Beliveau type of players or legit big time scorer like Tkachuck-Iginla-Selanne-Bondra-Shanahan

 

[GRob83]

He scored 31 in his last 204 game and played almost all the DPE games and all the 2011-2017 low scoring era game.

From 98 to 04, scoring at .40 goal per games, you were in the Top 20 scorer in the league, that Shanahan-Guerin-Hejduk, above Satan-Mogilny.

From 2011 to 2017, scoring at a 0.4 gpp, you were a top 10 goalscorer, that Rick Nash-Tavares production, better than Kessel-Carter-Seguin.

That 558+540 games of Marleau career in a very tight scoring era.

After 2017 scoring was up but Marleau was old.

It is not surprising that him and Eric Staal are in that lower ggp with a lot of goals (without being Ron Francis) type because of when they had a lot of their primes.

Almost all those 500 goals with a better gpg than Marleau either played a lot of games in the 70s to 1996 window or are quite legendary scorer.

Modano-Hossa are maybe the only 2 above him that does not look good, they are full-on all-timer HHOF obviously, but played all of the DPE, also 2011-2017 for Hossa while doing much more than scoring goals.

All the others eitehr were in super high scoring era or Ovechkin-Bobby Hull-Maurice Richard-Crosby-Howe-Beliveau type of players or legit big time scorer like Tkachuck-Iginla-Selanne-Bondra-Shanahan

Bondra averaged 38.5 goals per 82 games. Marleau scored 38 goals 2X in 23 years

 

[MadLuke]

Bondra averaged 38.5 goals per 82 games. Marleau scored 38 goals 2X in 23 years

Yes, he was a literal multi "Richard trophy winner", that played 700 less games, it is not a big insult for a Marleau to under Bondra gpg. If you look at the list of 500 goals with better gpg, either super goal scorer or played a lot in a super higher scoring era, often both.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One-way, specialist wingers are overrated and they always have been and, apparently, will continue to be...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

if trevor linden had twice as long of a prime, five extra seasons of career length, was less good in the playoffs, and got a few spike years on joe thornton’s wing, that’s patrick marleau right?

he’d have a better career, but would he have been a better player? or a hall of famer by any stretch?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think Marleau was better than Linden.

 

[MadArcand]

Marleau is a joke. A 0.67 PPG player who was average to mediocre at everything but skating.

Over his career span, he ranks:
139th in PPG among players who played at least 500 games over that timespan, tied with a HOFer - too bad it's Pronger. Among forwards, he's tied with basically perfect career overlap of Shane Doan, who's not anywhere near HHOF in spite of being many levels above Marleau defensively and as a leader. And also luminaries such as Horton, Perron and Brunette. Outscored by a pile of hilarity such as ancient Andrew Cassels (0.69 PPG), corpse of Brian Leetch (0.68), Kristian Huselius (0.68), Mike Cammalleri (0.71), Michael Nylander (0.75) and god knows what else, all the Pacciorettys and Steve Sullivans are making my eyes bleed. Oh, and he's also outscored by the post-prime Peter Bondra (0.78), though to his credit he does outscore the crippled corpse of Trevor Linden (0.44).
92nd in playoff PPG (50 games+) with a 0.65, deep below his own teammates Couture (18th/0.87) and Thornton (62nd/0.72). Also by the likes of Spezza, Straka or Reilly Smith (really??).
121st in forward ATOI

A true legend!

 

[JackSlater]

Marleau is an inevitability. Maybe not in his first year of eligibility but he is definitely getting in. He isn't a hall of fame player if the hall of fame was what most people want it to be, but in the actual hall of fame there are at least several worse players.

Something I find kind of funny about Marleau is that he is one of the few players who has won three best on best tournaments. Obviously the pool is limited - only Canada has won more than one (so Marleau has won three times (or better) as more best on bests than any country other than Canada) and due to various irregularities (scheduling, injuries, team selection) some players never got there. If you don't count the 2016 world cup then you have only 9 players who have done it:

Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Lemieux, Brodeur, Luongo, Niedermayer, Iginla, and Patty Marleau.

If you decided to include the 2016 abomination tournament then the number swells to 18, including the defenceman version of Marleau in Jay Bouwmeester.

 

[The Panther]

I can read too. I don't care about one or two seasons here or there...(where's the Maruk love then?)

I know that he and Gretzky weren't together at ES, but Nicholls suddenly had like 65 special teams points that season. I'm not saying it wasn't good...but what's more indicative of him as a player? The 262 points in his first two seasons with 99 on the team or the 60ish points per year he did for the other 16 seasons?

I don't see Nicholls as a Hall of Famer, but the myth that he only had big seasons when he played with Gretzky needs to die.

Nicholls was the highest scoring forward on four NHL clubs without Gretzky (incl. NYR '91), and he was the overall leading scorer on three of them (L.A. '84, L.A, '86, Chicago '95). Could have been another with Chicago in '96 if he hadn't been injured.

Marleau led the Sharks in '01 (with a lowly 52 points), '04 (lowly 57 points), and '11, so also three times.

But this is all ignoring Nicholls' 150 point season (4th NHL) and his 112 point season in 1989-90 --- when he was traded on January 20th 1990, he was 3rd NHL in scoring. Marleau never even once finished top-ten in scoring, despite playing most of his career on strong teams.

Nicholls definitely was better offensively. He was both a playmaking ace and a goal-scoring whiz.

Nicholls was also better in the playoffs.

I will say, however, that Nicholls in the 1980s (with L.A., basically) was possibly the worst defensive forward I've ever seen. Him and Rick Vaive.... (He did get pretty good after he was Lemaire-ed.)

He was so valuable following the 150 point season that he was immediately dealt for Granato and Sandstrom...

I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing. The Kings were desperate for wingers to play with Gretzky, so they were willing to give up a lot. Granato was a feisty winger who was fresh off a 36-goal rookie season, while Sandstrom had already shown he could score at a 50-goal pace (in 1986-87) and would go on to score at a 50-goal pace twice with L.A., and have a 99-point pace season with Pittsburgh in 1996. They were both younger than Nicholls, too.

 

[decma]

I can read too. I don't care about one or two seasons here or there...(where's the Maruk love then?)

I know that he and Gretzky weren't together at ES, but Nicholls suddenly had like 65 special teams points that season. I'm not saying it wasn't good...but what's more indicative of him as a player? The 262 points in his first two seasons with 99 on the team or the 60ish points per year he did for the other 16 seasons?

He was so valuable following the 150 point season that he was immediately dealt for Granato and Sandstrom...

As I posted on another thread:

I think some people are underestimating how good Nicholls was prior to Gretzky coming to LA.

In the five previous seasons (83/84 through 87/88) he was the 8th highest scoring C in the NHL, behind only Gretzky, Hawerchuck, Savard, Stastny, Mario, Federko, and Dionne.

Notably, the others were all #1Cs and had better linemates, while Nicholls went from #2 to maybe co-#1 in LA, and was playing with Jim Fox, Brian MacLellan, Tiger Williams, Bryan Erickson, and Terry Ruskowski as his most common wingers.

He also never had a very strong offesnive D-man on those teams.

And he was less reliant on the PP than the Cs ahead of him (other than Gretzky).

Him putting up 94 points per 80 games (including 60 at ES) with those linemates was impressive.

 

[lextune]

You just know Marleau is going in. This generations Dave Andreychuk.

Was Marleau ever a top 20 player in the league at any point in his career?

He might have cracked the top 20 in a season or two, but he was never near the top 10.

He should never be in the Hall.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I don't see Nicholls as a Hall of Famer, but the myth that he only had big seasons when he played with Gretzky needs to die.

Nicholls was the highest scoring forward on four NHL clubs without Gretzky (incl. NYR '91), and he was the overall leading scorer on three of them (L.A. '84, L.A, '86, Chicago '95). Could have been another with Chicago in '96 if he hadn't been injured.

Marleau led the Sharks in '01 (with a lowly 52 points), '04 (lowly 57 points), and '11, so also three times.

But this is all ignoring Nicholls' 150 point season (4th NHL) and his 112 point season in 1989-90 --- when he was traded on January 20th 1990, he was 3rd NHL in scoring. Marleau never even once finished top-ten in scoring, despite playing most of his career on strong teams.

Nicholls definitely was better offensively. He was both a playmaking ace and a goal-scoring whiz.

Nicholls was also better in the playoffs.

I will say, however, that Nicholls in the 1980s (with L.A., basically) was possibly the worst defensive forward I've ever seen. Him and Rick Vaive.... (He did get pretty good after he was Lemaire-ed.)

I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing. The Kings were desperate for wingers to play with Gretzky, so they were willing to give up a lot. Granato was a feisty winger who was fresh off a 36-goal rookie season, while Sandstrom had already shown he could score at a 50-goal pace (in 1986-87) and would go on to score at a 50-goal pace twice with L.A., and have a 99-point pace season with Pittsburgh in 1996. They were both younger than Nicholls, too.

This is a good post.


I'm not sure how it is possible for a player to be penalized for scoring 150 points. It almost seems that Nicholls would have been better off never playing with Gretzky, according to his reputation on HFboards.

He wasn't the biggest superstar in the league, or in the top tier but he was a legitimate first line caliber center for nearly 15 years. 1200+ points in 1127 games is nothing to sneeze at. Along with good playoff numbers.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I think Marleau was better than Linden.

If Marleau is better than Linden, why are Lindens playoff points per game higher than Marleau?

 

[Michael Farkas]

If Marleau is better than Linden, why are Lindens playoff points per game higher than Marleau?

A) Occasionally, they play games between October and April too.
B) Linden played more in a higher scoring era.
C) In like seasons ('98 to '07) Linden has 19 points in 45 games; Marleau has 51 in 73 games in the same amount of ice time.
D) Marleau's strength isn't the playoffs by any means, but that's hardly the only measure of a player. So cherrypicking it singularly also assumes, say, Reilly Smith is better than Mark Stone.
E) This was more of an evaluation than a math problem anyhow.

 

[Gorskyontario]

A) Occasionally, they play games between October and April too.
B) Linden played more in a higher scoring era.
C) In like seasons ('98 to '07) Linden has 19 points in 45 games; Marleau has 51 in 73 games in the same amount of ice time.
D) Marleau's strength isn't the playoffs by any means, but that's hardly the only measure of a player. So cherrypicking it singularly also assumes, say, Reilly Smith is better than Mark Stone.
E) This was more of an evaluation than a math problem anyhow.

Well I disagree with you, in my opinion aside from being more clutch. Linden was significantly more physical, and had much higher effort and compete level. Also considering the disparity in linemates, I don't believe Marleau to be better offensively than Linden.

To me Marleau played the last 15 years of his career trying not to get hurt. The only metric Marleau beats out Linden is longevity.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think that's unfair. I don't think it's outlandish to prefer Linden. Marleau is a better skater, better stickhandler, maybe a little smarter too. I guess I'd rather have Linden as a 3rd liner on my team than Marleau as a 2nd liner, if that makes any sense...assuming, I have a contending team, that is.

That said, I'm just trying to balance things a little bit. If someone came in and celebrated Marleau's 500 goals and 1200 points, I'd try to bring that down as that doesn't really represent Marleau's impact. On the flip side, folks are naming some pretty chintzy players here and trying to sell that Marleau was worse than them. But that undercuts how good Marleau was in his prime for me.

Like, here's the thing...the Sharks quit at the end of the DPE. Selanne was lost to free agency. Owen Nolan only returned Alyn McCauley for the roster (decent player, he was). Ricci fell off. Damphousse was sliding. Graves retired. Sundstrom returned a backup goalie. Even the goalie depth took a hit, as Kiprusoff was dealt for a pick.

The Sharks went from low-key, hipster Cup pick to being sort of gutted to a degree. In 2004, that was Marleau's team. And Marleau's game changed. It got brushed away earlier in the thread as "a lowly 57 points" or whatever...but he was really, really good in '04 and the proceeding seasons.

That Sharks team in '04, in particular, was thought to be a last place team. And yes, they played good team defense, and Scott Hannan and those guys were a revelation under Ron Wilson. Nabokov actually had a nice playoff showing. But it was the line of Damphousse, Marleau, and Niko Dimitrakos that got them awfully close to going to the Final. They lost to Kiprusoff.

Look, again, I don't want Marleau in the Hall. I don't think he's a special player. I just think this thread and this forum got a little too far down on him at this point. It's been a decade since his prime, and he played through all that time haha - I think folks might have forgotten a little bit, that he was at least a semi-threat for a good decade in there.