2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[Flyer lurker]

Great news everyone! I just got off the phone with Gary Bettman and he confirmed to me that this seasons playoffs and regular seasson are changing to 5 0n 5 only because we are the best at it. Raise the banner!!!

If you can play 5x5 and have no goalies we are set!

 

[Beef Invictus]

The cycle the Flyers were in is the "patch and reload" strategy that GMs with little job security pursue, win now or someone else inherits your players. With the Flyers, the motivation was different, more the inability to recognize that team building had changed under a hard cap. Even Hextall, with a mandate from Snider to rebuild, couldn't tear it down and accept losing for 3-4 years.

The best strategy is a coherent one. Whether Briere can implement the current strategy successfully remains to be seen. But as long as he takes a long-run view, and keeps accumulating young assets, at worst the next GM will have a lot to work with.

The worst strategy is one that changes in response to the team's short-term success or failure.

That's what the Flyers have done for years. We've called it out forever.

 

[MJL66]

The cycle the Flyers were in is the "patch and reload" strategy that GMs with little job security pursue, win now or someone else inherits your players. With the Flyers, the motivation was different, more the inability to recognize that team building had changed under a hard cap. Even Hextall, with a mandate from Snider to rebuild, couldn't tear it down and accept losing for 3-4 years.

The best strategy is a coherent one. Whether Briere can implement the current strategy successfully remains to be seen. But as long as he takes a long-run view, and keeps accumulating young assets, at worst the next GM will have a lot to work with.

The worst strategy is one that changes in response to the team's short-term success or failure.

None of us need a history lesson on what cycle the Flyers are in. The best strategy is a coherent one is a ridiculous statement. It really doesn't remain to be seen. Anyone who is objective and has been a Flyers fan for a significant period of time knows that the same strategy they've always been using, is not going to work. I laugh when Flyers fans say they don't want to wait for how long tanking will take or that it's not a guarantee. As Flyers fans, all we've been doing is waiting and it's a guarantee that the same old Flyers strategy is not going to work. Its hysterical. Hey but look at the xGF%. Let's look at this xCUP% 0.00% LOL

 

[renberg]

Probably I'm in the minority here but why continue to hash over Cutter Gauthier and his exit from the Flyers one more time? It's been done far too often. Nothing new has been added to the dialogue on the subject. Can we please move on?

 

[pooch]

Probably I'm in the minority here but why continue to hash over Cutter Gauthier and his exit from the Flyers one more time? It's been done far too often. Nothing new has been added to the dialogue on the subject. Can we please move on?

Both sides of the argument have been pretty insufferable as well.

 

[flyers0909]

What strikes me about Laughton, is that so many on this board have for a year taken as gospel that the Flyers turned down a 1st rd pick and more for Scott Laughton.

Yet the latest Friedman report from the other day says the Flyers are asking for a 1st for Laughton, and a league source said teams feel the asking price of a 1st for Laughton is too rich, and that the Flyers are purposely outpricing him because they aren't eager to move him.

Well, that doesn't jive with the supposed fact that the Flyers turned down a 1st-plus for Laughton around last year's deadline, which I was always skeptical of. IF that was true, it must have involved taking on a bad contract as part of the deal.

If teams don't think Laughton is worth a 1st, and aren't willing to pay that price, as per Friedman's report, then a lot of posters need to reconsider what they state as fact that the Flyers rejected.

Friedman walked that back a bit this morning it looks like

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Man. I would push back hard against the notion that Walker was anywhere near the stretch to return a 1st that Laughton is. He's not good anymore.

 

[deadhead]

None of us need a history lesson on what cycle the Flyers are in. The best strategy is a coherent one is a ridiculous statement. It really doesn't remain to be seen. Anyone who is objective and has been a Flyers fan for a significant period of time knows that the same strategy they've always been using, is not going to work. I laugh when Flyers fans say they don't want to wait for how long tanking will take or that it's not a guarantee. As Flyers fans, all we've been doing is waiting and it's a guarantee that the same old Flyers strategy is not going to work. Its hysterical. Hey but look at the xGF%. Let's look at this xCUP% 0.00% LOL

Briere is not following the same old strategy.
He's accumulating draft picks and young players.
DeLo and Johnson have been deliberately buried (Torts made it clear to Johnson that young players will play ahead of him if there's a serious injury).
Hathaway is 12th among forwards in TOI, and Seeler 6th among D-men.

 

[deadhead]

Man. I would push back hard against the notion that Walker was anywhere near the stretch to return a 1st that Laughton is. He's not good anymore.

Laughton is 81st in ES scoring (EH) among forwards so far this season, and that with spending a lot of time with Poehling and Hathaway.
If you want to shore up your 3rd line . . . he's a good short-term solution.
He's slowed down a bit, but while his top speed is below average, his 20+ bursts are above average.
While he's not a good center anymore, he can still fill in there if needed, and that sort of flexibility adds value.

It would probably be a Walker type deal, say Laughton for Toronto's 2026 1st, Kampf (salary dump) and a "B/C" prospect.
The extra value would come from taking a 2026 1st.

 

[MJL66]

Briere is not following the same old strategy.
He's accumulating draft picks and young players.
DeLo and Johnson have been deliberately buried (Torts made it clear to Johnson that young players will play ahead of him if there's a serious injury).
Hathaway is 12th among forwards in TOI, and Seeler 6th among D-men.

He absolutely is following the same old strategy. It's just pause for when the cap clears up and paying the inevitable price. Fletcher acquired future draft picks also. Both Jones and Briere have all but said that they're not going to tank. Can't be caught down the bottom because you can't get out. Where are they? Hopefully their incompetence gains them another top asset. As soon as the cap clears up, it's full steam ahead. Deslauriers can't play and should've been waived two years ago. Johnson should have never been re-signed.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Laughton is 81st in ES scoring (EH) among forwards so far this season, and that with spending a lot of time with Poehling and Hathaway.
If you want to shore up your 3rd line . . . he's a good short-term solution.
He's slowed down a bit, but while his top speed is below average, his 20+ bursts are above average.
While he's not a good center anymore, he can still fill in there if needed, and that sort of flexibility adds value.

It would probably be a Walker type deal, say Laughton for Toronto's 2026 1st, Kampf (salary dump) and a "B/C" prospect.
The extra value would come from taking a 2026 1st.

Deady, I so love it when I get to say this to you.

Defense matters too.

 

[MJL66]

Probably I'm in the minority here but why continue to hash over Cutter Gauthier and his exit from the Flyers one more time? It's been done far too often. Nothing new has been added to the dialogue on the subject. Can we please move on?

You're absolute right but we won't. It will probably come up every time the Flyers and Ducks play. Especially if the expected of Gauthier becoming a really good player and Drysdale. Not so much.

 

[bennysflyers16]

I am curious what the reactions here would have been if the Flyers had selected Makar or Miro over unanimous consensus #2 OA Patrick.

I still maintain that Makar would not have become Makar if we drafted him. He would have either started in Allentown or on the third pair with Hagg or something. Not that I believe the scouts were actually banging down the door for him. How much turnover have we seen in the scouting department since 2017? Just last year Danny basically said we didn't need Buium because we already had Drysdale and Andrae. We seriously believe they wanted a small dman out of a lower league committed to a "lesser" school with the second overall pick? And why wouldn't the same argument apply to Makar in 2017 with Ghost already on the team?

It would of been a meltdown. Outside of Winnipeg where there were some rumblings about NP attitude, he and Nico were slam dunk 1 and 2.

People thinking the Flyers would draft a small boy offense D man out of Jr A ( That your boy almost played at ) is INSANITY. And to think that we would of developed them properly is moronic .

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It would of been a meltdown. Outside of Winnipeg where there were some rumblings about NP attitude, he and Nico were slam dunk 1 and 2.

People thinking the Flyers would draft a small boy offense D man out of Jr A ( That your boy almost played at ) is INSANITY. And to think that we would of developed them properly is moronic .

A lot of scouts were souring on Patrick as the draft approached. He was not a consensus #2 around the league by the time of the draft. That's a common misconception.

Meet your Makar, King Patrick

April 6, 2017 By Grant McCagg

...

If one had said six months ago that Patrick might not be a top-two pick, or even the first-overall pick for that matter, such a declaration would have been met with plenty of criticism and disbelief. Following an underwhelming injury-plagued season, however, in which he was already surpassed by Halifax Mooseheads’ center Nico Hischier in a lot of scouts’ minds…if one prospect is already thought to be as good or better, why not another?

...

I see a lot of parallels between Monahan and Patrick. Monahan is a 6-2 center who was also a late birthday that had great stats the year before he was drafted with 78 points. No, he did not crack 100 points like Patrick did last season, but Monahan was not on a high-powered offensive juggernaut like Brandon either, with highly productive teammates like Ivan Provorov, Jayce Hawryluk and John Quenneville that scored a CHL-best 317 goals.

Much like Monahan, some concerns about Patrick’s effort away from the puck, skating speed and overall competitiveness all crept in as he was under more intense scrutiny in his draft year.

“We faced Patrick quite a few times this year,” said one eastern conference WHL head coach. “Nothing against the kid whatsoever, but what I saw this year and what our coaching staff saw last year are two different players. No question he’s a player, smart and everything else, but I’m not seeing what everybody talked about last year.

“I saw him play against Moose Jaw one night and he was downright lazy. When he has the puck he’s fine..but when he doesn’t…I’ve expected more. What I heard from last year was that this guy was going to be a handful this year…and he hasn’t been a handful with that hockey club.”

Monahan was able to overcome the competitiveness and skating concerns and has developed into a solid top-two NHL center, but there are no guarantees that Patrick can follow the same path, especially when issues about his character are also becoming more prevalent in the scouting community from several different sources.

“He’s not the greatest kid I don’t think,” said a scout of one team picking in the top ten. “I don’t know if he’s a great teammate either. That’s what I’ve heard. Maybe just a little bit about himself.”

Up until the world junior tournament there was little talk about Patrick dropping from his perch as the anointed number-one pick, but as Hischier kept producing in big moments, including in a head-to-head matchup against Patrick at the CHL Top Prospects Game, and as Patrick’s return from a hernia injury failed to wow scouts in the same fashion he impressed them last season, it soon became apparent that Patrick was no longer in a league of his own when it came to the draft.

“Our guys aren’t keen on him,” said the scout of another team slated to pick in the top ten. “I would be really surprised if we took Nolan Patrick. Unless it’s a no brainer. If we’re at 4 or 5…then you’ve gotta do it. “If (club management) hear a peep on a player we’re not taking him…and they’ve heard some things that concern them.”

 

[deadhead]

Deady, I so love it when I get to say this to you.

Defense matters too.

He's adequate at LW, at center, not so much.
Then again, Couts ain't the Selke candidate he used to be at center, which is why I want him to move to LW.

I think to play the aggressive, up tempo style that Torts likes, you need centers with speed, b/c they have 20-30 feet further to skate to get back into position. In terms of speed, Frost, Poehling, Cates, Laughton, Couts.

Other schemes aren't as demanding on centers, so there may be teams that see Laughton as "good enough."

 

[JojoTheWhale]

He's adequate at LW, at center, not so much.
Then again, Couts ain't the Selke candidate he used to be at center, which is why I want him to move to LW.

I think to play the aggressive, up tempo style that Torts likes, you need centers with speed, b/c they have 20-30 feet further to skate to get back into position. In terms of speed, Frost, Poehling, Cates, Laughton, Couts.

Other schemes aren't as demanding on centers, so there may be teams that see Laughton as "good enough."

Truly putrid 5v5 defensive impacts. Just awful.

 

[Larry44]

Friedman walked that back a bit this morning it looks like

Here's Elliotte about the Flyers today at 27:22: The FAN Hockey Show
"They are not afraid to do things." Having Qs about goaltending. and looking for centres. Hopeful but want to accelerate. Looking around. Laughton has some interest. Are they really willing to move Frost or Farabee?

 

[deadhead]

Truly putrid 5v5 defensive impacts. Just awful.

Which is why he doesn't play center for us anymore.
What are the numbers on Couts?
He strikes me as still good on defense, but at the expense of offense b/c he has to cheat to get back.

One reason I think they fell in love with Jett is they see him as a perfect it, stout body, high IQ, top speed, a guy who can instantly contribute in the bottom six and the PK while he develops his offensive game.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Which is why he doesn't play center for us anymore.
What are the numbers on Couts?
He strikes me as still good on defense, but at the expense of offense b/c he has to cheat to get back.

One reason I think they fell in love with Jett is they see him as a perfect it, stout body, high IQ, top speed, a guy who can instantly contribute in the bottom six and the PK while he develops his offensive game.

Here you go. I like posting the whole breakdown so we can all see how the components add up.

 

[freakydallas13]

A lot of scouts were souring on Patrick as the draft approached. He was not a consensus #2 around the league by the time of the draft. That's a common misconception.

Rare is the day I get to use this image, but every time I do I can't help but smile.

Pray tell, what other, and I use this term loosely, "highly regarded" scouts soured on Patrick pre-draft? You used the word "scouts" plural, so I'm assuming there is more than one.

 

[deadhead]

Here you go. I like posting the whole breakdown so we can all see how the components add up.

Kind of what I thought.

Think Couts at LW could play at a Mark Stone (hopefully without the injuries) for a few years.
Cutting back the distance he has to skate would allow him to be more aggressive on offense without sacrificing defense.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Codys Laugh emojis is the best part of this thread.

 

[MJL66]

He's adequate at LW, at center, not so much.
Then again, Couts ain't the Selke candidate he used to be at center, which is why I want him to move to LW.

I think to play the aggressive, up tempo style that Torts likes, you need centers with speed, b/c they have 20-30 feet further to skate to get back into position. In terms of speed, Frost, Poehling, Cates, Laughton, Couts.

Other schemes aren't as demanding on centers, so there may be teams that see Laughton as "good enough."

Tortorella's style is not aggressive. It is conservative. Other schemes are far more demanding of centers. The Flyers play a low zone collapse in the defensive zone. Where it's not center, LW. RW, it's F1, F2, F3. The first forward on the back check is F1 and takes the center position defensively. Other systems defensive zone coverage such as teams that play man to man or something like Vigneault's hybrid Man/Overload defensive zone system is far more demanding. So is the way Boston played their low zone collapse when they had Bergeron and used the center as a rover on the puck defensively. Or the way that Barry Trotz liked to play the low zone collapse with being aggressive and looking to out man the opposition on the puck to get it back. Tortorella likes to collapse and block shots. It's not close to an aggressive style. His forecheck is also not close to being the most aggressive. It's a 2-1-2 spread forecheck and is not nearly as aggressive as say the 3-2 press forecheck that Laviolette likes to play.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Just curious, are Philly fans on other boards this obsessive over a decade ago?
Do sixers fans blame Coangelo first and give this gm a free lunch?
Or if only the sixers took paul pierce....
Do eagle fans moan about the carson wentz trade still?
Do fans hate Jordan Davis and say why no Hamilton?
Is the phillies bullpen failure all due to matt klentak?
Are the phillies still paying for the Jake Arrieta signing?
Do phillies fans get angry at jd drew still and get into twitter quote debates?

 

[MJL66]

Which is why he doesn't play center for us anymore.
What are the numbers on Couts?
He strikes me as still good on defense, but at the expense of offense b/c he has to cheat to get back.

One reason I think they fell in love with Jett is they see him as a perfect it, stout body, high IQ, top speed, a guy who can instantly contribute in the bottom six and the PK while he develops his offensive game.

Yea, that's why you draft a player in the first round. Hoping he can instantly contribute in the bottom six and the PK. Fits in perfect with the Flyers development methods. Have to grind along the boards in the D zone before we let you use your skill.