2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[MJL66]

I coached a lot of basketball in my day, and there are a lot of similarities with hockey systems.

In basketball you can play a 1-2-2 a variety of ways. You can play it as a passive trap. You can play it as an aggressive trap.

You can play a 1-2-2 press at full-court, 3/4-court, or 1/2 court.

It's similar in hockey. You can play it with various levels of passivity or aggression and push it forward or sit it back to various levels of the ice.

Terminology and knowledge is key. There is a difference between a 1-2-2 forecheck, a 1-2-2 neutral zone forecheck and a 1-2-2 neutral zone trap. The only thing they have in common is the 1-2-2 formation.
By it's nature, a 1-2-2 forecheck is less aggressive than a 2-1-2 forecheck. Which is why teams normally play the former late in games with a lead or if you have a lesser talented team. Or situationally such as against a controlled breakout.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Another day, another temper tantrum for the 60 something year old man baby.

When does the circus leave town?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

My stance is I want to give me as many sources, quotes, and named people as you can that say Patrick pre-draft wasn't a top 2 pick pre-draft? Because so far it's just a nebulous "scouts" quoted by McCagg, which is not nothing, but not also the supreme pre-draft authority you seem to be painting it as

What if I posted every other pre-draft scout, rankings, and draft lists that had him at either first or second overall? You think ~95% of scouts saying that means it's pretty damn close to a consensus? Because I do. And it's a massive part of the context you keep leaving out of McCagg thinking he's not 2nd overall quality but a no brainer at 4th overall.


It's not "well I guess I'd take him at 4 or 5", it's "he would be a no brainer at 4 or 5". Those are the exact words of the Scout. What kind of player do you think is a no brainer at 4th overall, a bust? Someone not even worth talking about at 2nd overall? That's what you're trying to say? Because that sounds insane to me.

You claiming Patrick was draft day poison at 2nd overall because a known draft contrarian wouldn't have drafted him at 2nd but would take him as a no brainer at 4th overall is a pretty weak argument, which is why I was hoping you had more names to back it up.

My point was very simple and succint.

In response to a post claiming that Nolan Patrick was a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top 2, I disputed it, saying his stock had dropped in many's eyes as the draft approached and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top-2 by the time of the draft.

To support this, I cited an article quoting at least three sources, jobs rather specifically described (WHL head coach, scout for a team picking in the top 10, another scout for a team picking in the top 10) who all expressed concerns (such as character, injuries, and lackluster play) and indicated they were souring on him compared to his previous reputation.

The fact that the author of the article was Grant McCagg is irrelevant. I said nothing about McCagg as an authority. I cited the article for the quotes that indicated there were growing concerns about Patrick in hockey circles.

(Now McCagg, to his credit, did use other parts of the article, not cited, to state he was moving Makar to #2 in his rankings ahead of Patrick. These quotes were part of the reasons why. Hey, he ended up being right, even though he's often wrong; but again, that's irrelevant to my point.)

A scout saying that Patrick would be a no-brainer at 4 or 5, but that he didn't see his team taking him otherwise (i.e., before that), supports the reason I cited the article: Patrick's stock was falling, and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus lock as a top 2 player in the draft.

Now you can bend over backward, and try to move the goalposts, and bring in a bunch of other irrelevant, extraneous information.

But the point is: No, by the time of the draft, Nolan Patrick was not an obvious, leaguewide, consensus top-2 player in the draft.

There were growing concerns, his stock was dropping, and hockey circles and scouts had conflicting opinions on him.

 

[freakydallas13]

You move the goalposts repeatedly. The conversation was about playing a young player at the NHL level. I would agree if a skilled player is not ready to play in a skilled role, he should start in the AHL if he is eligible. What you and the Flyers apparently don't understand, is that on a rebuilding team, a young skilled players should play with other highly skilled players. Let him play to his strengths rather than force him to develop other areas of his game before letting him do so. The Flyers development methods. Like most things are archaic.

You're arguing with someone who thinks trading Laughton last year would have stunted the growth of our young players because it would have left the Flyers with a giant hole at center for 30 games, so adjust your expectations accordingly.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Just curious, are Philly fans on other boards this obsessive over a decade ago?
Do sixers fans blame Coangelo first and give this gm a free lunch?
Or if only the sixers took paul pierce....
Do eagle fans moan about the carson wentz trade still?
Do fans hate Jordan Davis and say why no Hamilton?
Is the phillies bullpen failure all due to matt klentak?
Are the phillies still paying for the Jake Arrieta signing?
Do phillies fans get angry at jd drew still and get into twitter quote debates?

It's a different relationship. Being a fan of the org is intertwined with being a fan of the hockey team.

I know several Eagles fans who still lament passing on Hamilton for example, myself included. But thst's also because it was my opinion on draft day. It's not looking at an All Pro with hindsight. Nor would it ever spill into rooting againt Davis in any way. I'd prefer he turn into Vince Wilfork tomorrow to all other options.

The Flyers and their fanbase are stuck in time. It's more like a club than a fanbase. With other sports in the city, there's a kind of global community. And then there's the Flyers and their fans telling you how they're the best. It's been that way for as long as I can remember.

 

[Curufinwe]

As Jonesy says, the Flyers are the Gold Standard of the NHL

Why a gold standard is a very bad idea — Money, Banking and Financial Markets

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www.moneyandbanking.com

 

[MJL66]

I also love the fact the Patrick's most hindsighted vocal critic today was tooting the horn of success when Hextall picked him on draft day.

Wasn't everybody? I'm sure maybe there were some that wanted Heiskenan but when they drafted Patrick. I said the Flyers just got their future 1C. There was universal joy with the pick to my memory

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Damn right I was excited about Patrick on draft day. Assuming the passive aggressive references are to me.

I was wrong.

I had no idea about the extent of his character concerns.

I didn't know he had a migraine history in addition to his other injury history.

There are things we as fans don't have access to that organizations do. Obviously.

I also thought Cutter was the right pick at 5 in a very weak draft. Flawed, yes, in that he floated and disappeared too often, but also very talented. Size, speed, ridiculous shot.

But again, I had no idea what his personality was like. I didn't know he was such a colossal d-bag. The kind of entitled diva who would say on draft night he was "born to be a Flyer" and then within the year decide he wouldn't play for the organization, without specific explanation.

Again, more things organizations have access to that we fans do not.

I still think Cutter is a 30-goal scorer in the NHL and that he was a very good prospect worthy of the 5th overall pick in that draft.

His amateur record after being drafted supports the 5th overall selection.

But damn I hate his personality.

 

[MJL66]

My point was very simple and succint.

In response to a post claiming that Nolan Patrick was a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top 2, I disputed it, saying his stock had dropped in many's eyes as the draft approached and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top-2 by the time of the draft.

To support this, I cited an article quoting at least three sources, jobs rather specifically described (WHL head coach, scout for a team picking in the top 10, another scout for a team picking in the top 10) who all expressed concerns (such as character, injuries, and lackluster play) and indicated they were souring on him compared to his previous reputation.

The fact that the author of the article was Grant McCagg is irrelevant. I said nothing about McCagg as an authority. I cited the article for the quotes that indicated there were growing concerns about Patrick in hockey circles.

(Now McCagg, to his credit, did use other parts of the article, not cited, to state he was moving Makar to #2 in his rankings ahead of Patrick. These quotes were part of the reasons why. Hey, he ended up being right, even though he's often wrong; but again, that's irrelevant to my point.)

A scout saying that Patrick would be a no-brainer at 4 or 5, but that he didn't see his team taking him otherwise (i.e., before that), supports the reason I cited the article: Patrick's stock was falling, and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus lock as a top 2 player in the draft.

Now you can bend over backward, and try to move the goalposts, and bring in a bunch of other irrelevant, extraneous information.

But the point is: No, by the time of the draft, Nolan Patrick was not an obvious, leaguewide, consensus top-2 player in the draft.

There were growing concerns, his stock was dropping, and hockey circles and scouts had conflicting opinions on him.

There are 32 teams in the league. Each team employs a GM. an assistant GM. head of amateur scouting and countless other amateur scouts. 3 sources against the player, is hardly proof that there wasn't a consensus on the top 2. Do the math

 

[freakydallas13]

My point was very simple and succint.

In response to a post claiming that Nolan Patrick was a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top 2, I disputed it, saying his stock had dropped in many's eyes as the draft approached and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top-2 by the time of the draft.

To support this, I cited an article quoting at least three sources, jobs rather specifically described (WHL head coach, scout for a team picking in the top 10, another scout for a team picking in the top 10) who all expressed concerns (such as character, injuries, and lackluster play) and indicated they were souring on him compared to his previous reputation.

The fact that the author of the article was Grant McCagg is irrelevant. I said nothing about McCagg as an authority. I cited the article for the quotes that indicated there were growing concerns about Patrick in hockey circles.

(Now McCagg, to his credit, did use other parts of the article, not cited, to state he was moving Makar to #2 in his rankings ahead of Patrick. These quotes were part of the reasons why. Hey, he ended up being right, even though he's often wrong; but again, that's irrelevant to my point.)

A scout saying that Patrick would be a no-brainer at 4 or 5, but that he didn't see his team taking him otherwise (i.e., before that), supports the reason I cited the article: Patrick's stock was falling, and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus lock as a top 2 player in the draft.

Now you can bend over backward, and try to move the goalposts, and bring in a bunch of other irrelevant, extraneous information.

But the point is: No, by the time of the draft, Nolan Patrick was not an obvious, leaguewide, consensus top-2 player in the draft.

There were growing concerns, his stock was dropping, and hockey circles and scouts had conflicting opinions on him.

*I* can bend over backwards to move the goalpost? Buddy, you're entire argument has one person, quoting a scout (who isn't named) saying he wouldn't draft Patrick at 2nd but he's a no brainer at 4th, and your takeaway is "well this proves it wasn't a consensus"?

Bob Mackenzie, June 19, 2017: Patrick at 2

McKenzie's 2017 Draft Ranking: Top 93 and honourable mentions - TSN.ca

For the final edition, Bob McKenzie ranked the Top 93 players, covering what would be the first three rounds of the draft, as well as seven honourable mentions making it a Top 100.

www.tsn.ca

Jeff Marek May 23, 2017: Patrick at 1

Jeff Marek’s Top 100 prospects for the 2017 NHL Draft

www.google.com

Bonner prospects, June 07, 2017: Patrick at 1

2017 NHL Draft Final Rankings

2017 NHL Draft Final Rankings Peter Harling - June 7, 2017 There was plenty of movement in my final draft rankings, some minor, some significant. Making the top 31 this month are centers Josh Norris, and Robert Thomas. That bumped out Kole Lind and Henri Jokiharju. Again no

www.google.com

The Hockey News, June 16 2017: Patrick at 1

https://thehockeynews.com/news/2017-nhl-draft-ranking-the-top-120-prospects

ESPN, June 21, 2017: Patrick at 2

Top 100 NHL draft prospects for 2017

Who are the top players available for the 2017 NHL draft on June 23-24 in Chicago? We rank them 1-100 here.

www.espn.com

McKeens, May 31, 2017: Patrick at 1

McKeen's 2017 NHL Draft Rankings - Top 31 - May 31st, 2017

McKeen's Hockey releases it's final ranking for the 2017 NHL Draft

www.mckeenshockey.com

The Hockey Writers, June 31, 2017: Patrick at 1

2017 NHL Draft Final Consensus Rankings - The Hockey Writers NHL Entry Draft Latest News, Analysis & More

The final edition of the 2017 NHL Draft Consensus Rankings, averaging out the rankings from seven major draft evaluators.

thehockeywriters.com

Sports Illustrated (lol), June 4, 2017: Patrick at either 1 or 2, and I can't see but the article says he and Hischer are at the top:

2017 NHL draft rankings: Nico Hischier, Nolan Patrick lead solid class

There may not be a generational player in the 2017 NHL draft, but that doesn’t mean the class is any less solid. Nico Hischier and Nolan Patrick lead a solid slew of players ready to hear their names called on June 23 in Chicago.

www.si.com

The Draft Analyst, June 11, 2017: Patrick at 1

2017 NHL Draft: Final Rankings – The Draft Analyst

www.thedraftanalyst.com

An aggregate of rankings by Maple Leafs Hotstove, June 22, 2017: Patrick at 2

2017 NHL Draft Rankings – Final List

With only one day left until the 2017 NHL Draft and all the final lists now released, it’s time for a look at the aggregate draft rankings. Outlets included in these rankings: HockeyProspect.com McKeen’s Hockey Bob McKenzie Corey Pronman (ESPN Insider) Jeff Marek (Sportsnet) Craig Button (TSN)...

mapleleafshotstove.com

Bleacher Report, June 20, 2017: Patrick at 1

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2715912-nhl-mock-draft-2017-projecting-every-1st-round-pick

Hockey Scouting, June 8, 2017: Patrick at 2

2017 NHL Draft Rankings - HockeyProspect.com

HockeyProspect.com produces NHL Draft Rankings for eligible draft prospects for the current seasons draft. Our NHL Draft Rankings are released monthly from

hockeyprospect.com

How many more before you can call something a consensus? These are just the results from the first page of a Google search, honestly I got bored and stopped here but could have kept going.

 

[MJL66]

Damn right I was excited about Patrick on draft day. Assuming the passive aggressive references are to me.

I was wrong.

I had no idea about the extent of his character concerns.

I didn't know he had a migraine history in addition to his other injury history.

There are things we as fans don't have access to that organizations do. Obviously.

I also thought Cutter was the right pick at 5 in a very weak draft. Flawed, yes, in that he floated and disappeared too often, but also very talented. Size, speed, ridiculous shot.

But again, I had no idea what his personality was like. I didn't know he was such a colossal d-bag. The kind of entitled diva who would say on draft night he was "born to be a Flyer" and then within the year decide he wouldn't play for the organization, without specific explanation.

Again, more things organizations have access to that we fans do not.

I still think Cutter is a 30-goal scorer in the NHL and that he was a very good prospect worthy of the 5th overall pick in that draft.

His amateur record after being drafted supports the 5th overall selection.

But damn I hate his personality.

There were no public reports of character concerns nor did he have a migraine history prior to the draft. That developed after the draft. Publicly, among the collective of analysts. Patrick was a consensus top 2 pick. Did you know that Joe Sakic was pissed when he "got stuck" with Makar? He badly wanted Heiskanen.

 

[freakydallas13]

Wasn't everybody? I'm sure maybe there were some that wanted Heiskenan but when they drafted Patrick. I said the Flyers just got their future 1C. There was universal joy with the pick to my memory

Yes, the people on the Anti-Patrick crusade currently are trying to push their own agenda with nothing but hindsight and revisionism. I was hyped on Patrick too at the time, though I thought he topped out at a 30-30 type of guy. I still thought that was good though!

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Terminology and knowledge is key. There is a difference between a 1-2-2 forecheck, a 1-2-2 neutral zone forecheck and a 1-2-2 neutral zone trap. The only thing they have in common is the 1-2-2 formation.
By it's nature, a 1-2-2 forecheck is less aggressive than a 2-1-2 forecheck. Which is why teams normally play the former late in games with a lead or if you have a lesser talented team. Or situationally such as against a controlled breakout.

I am aware. Just as in basketball you can have full-court, 3/4-court, and 1/2-court presses, and they can either be "soft" or attacking.

There were no public reports of character concerns nor did he have a migraine history prior to the draft. That developed after the draft. Publicly, among the collective of analysts. Patrick was a consensus top 2 pick. Did you know that Joe Sakic was pissed when he "got stuck" with Makar? He badly wanted Heiskanen.

Except there apparently were regarding the character concerns, hence the McCagg article I posted above that he published as the draft approached. I guess I didn't see it at the time. I don't recall hearing about any other than coming across that article later.

Never heard about the migraine issues, but apparently teams were aware about them before the draft.

 

[MJL66]

Except there apparently were, hence the McCagg article I posted above that he published as the draft approached. I guess I didn't see it at the time.

No, there wasn't. A legitimate report of character issues about a high prospect ranked that high makes it into the media widespread and not just with an unreliable source that you keep trying to use.

Patrick's migraine issues did not exist before the draft. They didn't start happening until after the draft in his NHL playing days.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

There are 32 teams in the league. Each team employs a GM. an assistant GM. head of amateur scouting and countless other amateur scouts. 3 sources against the player, is hardly proof that there wasn't a consensus on the top 2. Do the math

In one simple article we have evidence of two teams picking in the top-10 who sure didn't have Patrick as a no-brainer #2.

You think they were the only teams in the league, or the only scouts in the hockey community, who didn't have him as a no-brainer #2?

No, there wasn't. A legitimate report of character issues about a high prospect ranked that high makes it into the media widespread and not just with an unreliable source that you keep trying to use.

Patrick's migraine issues did not exist before the draft. They didn't start happening until after the draft in his NHL playing days.

Chuck Fletcher said Patrick's migraine issues were known before the draft. And yes, I know Chuck was not with the organization at the time.

And yes, I know everyone will claim he's making this up, as posters on this board love to claim that direct quotes they don't wish to believe are lies.

 

[freakydallas13]

No, there wasn't. A legitimate report of character issues about a high prospect ranked that high makes it into the media widespread and not just with an unreliable source that you keep trying to use.

There was so much pre-draft concern, that one scout said he wouldn't draft him at 2nd OA, but was a no-brainer to pick at 4th OA.

This one scout knocking him down 2 spots from where the overwhelming majority of other scouts and draft experts had Patrick ranked is being used as the entire justification for the "it's not hindsight, I swear" crusade we see going on here.

 

[MJL66]

In one simple article we have evidence of two teams picking in the top-10 who sure didn't have Patrick as a no-brainer #2.

You think they were the only teams in the league, or the only scouts in the hockey community, who didn't have him as a no-brainer #2?


Chuck Fletcher said Patrick's migraine issues were known before the draft. And yes, I know Chuck was not with the organization at the time.

And yes, I know everyone will claim he's making this up, as posters on this board love to claim that direct quotes they don't wish to believe are lies.

Anecdotal and conjecture. Again, Patrick's migraine issues did not exist before the draft. They did not start occuring until after the draft.

There was so much pre-draft concern, that one scout said he wouldn't draft him at 2nd OA, but was a no-brainer to pick at 4th OA.

This one scout knocking him down 2 spots from where the overwhelming majority of other scouts and draft experts had Patrick ranked is being used as the entire justification for the "it's not hindsight, I swear" crusade we see going on here.

Yea, he's not very informed.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Terminology and knowledge is key. There is a difference between a 1-2-2 forecheck, a 1-2-2 neutral zone forecheck and a 1-2-2 neutral zone trap. The only thing they have in common is the 1-2-2 formation.
By it's nature, a 1-2-2 forecheck is less aggressive than a 2-1-2 forecheck. Which is why teams normally play the former late in games with a lead or if you have a lesser talented team. Or situationally such as against a controlled breakout.

Or if you are the Flyers in the 3rd period down 3 goals, you do the 1-2-2 with wingers hanging back to keep from giving up that 4th goal

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

It's a different relationship. Being a fan of the org is intertwined with being a fan of the hockey team.

I know several Eagles fans who still lament passing on Hamilton for example, myself included. But thst's also because it was my opinion on draft day. It's not looking at an All Pro with hindsight. Nor would it ever spill into rooting againt Davis in any way. I'd prefer he turn into Vince Wilfork tomorrow to all other options.

The Flyers and their fanbase are stuck in time. It's more like a club than a fanbase. With other sports in the city, there's a kind of global community. And then there's the Flyers and their fans telling you how they're the best. It's been that way for as long as I can remember.

A club or a cult?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Again: the only reason Patrick failing to be a franchise player at 2 is such a scandal when JVR wasn't, is the team's only incompetence magnified the issue 100x. If the team routinely makes competent moves in scouting, acquisition, drafting, and development, we wouldn't think of Patrick as more than a bit of trivia right now.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

A club or a cult?

That depends on how polite you want to be.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Anecdotal and conjecture. Again, Patrick's migraine issues did not exist before the draft. They did not start occuring until after the draft.


Yea, he's not very informed.

Fans didn't have access to Patrick's medical records. NHL organizations did.

Just because Patrick's migraine issues weren't known by the public doesn't mean it wasn't in his medical records.

"It’s not like this issue popped up out of nowhere, either, as Patrick has a history of migraines that dates back to his youth (and a family history as well)."

Source: 10 things: Nolan Patrick battling migraine disorder, Morgan Frost heading to AHL, Joel Farabee shines

 

[trostol]

i wonder if trading down from 2 was ever a discussion

 

[Cody Webster]

My point was very simple and succint.

In response to a post claiming that Nolan Patrick was a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top 2, I disputed it, saying his stock had dropped in many's eyes as the draft approached and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus no-brainer top-2 by the time of the draft.

To support this, I cited an article quoting at least three sources, jobs rather specifically described (WHL head coach, scout for a team picking in the top 10, another scout for a team picking in the top 10) who all expressed concerns (such as character, injuries, and lackluster play) and indicated they were souring on him compared to his previous reputation.

The fact that the author of the article was Grant McCagg is irrelevant. I said nothing about McCagg as an authority. I cited the article for the quotes that indicated there were growing concerns about Patrick in hockey circles.

(Now McCagg, to his credit, did use other parts of the article, not cited, to state he was moving Makar to #2 in his rankings ahead of Patrick. These quotes were part of the reasons why. Hey, he ended up being right, even though he's often wrong; but again, that's irrelevant to my point.)

A scout saying that Patrick would be a no-brainer at 4 or 5, but that he didn't see his team taking him otherwise (i.e., before that), supports the reason I cited the article: Patrick's stock was falling, and he was NOT a leaguewide consensus lock as a top 2 player in the draft.

Now you can bend over backward, and try to move the goalposts, and bring in a bunch of other irrelevant, extraneous information.

But the point is: No, by the time of the draft, Nolan Patrick was not an obvious, leaguewide, consensus top-2 player in the draft.

There were growing concerns, his stock was dropping, and hockey circles and scouts had conflicting opinions on him.

I see you didn't follow through with your promise

 

[MJL66]

Fans didn't have access to Patrick's medical records. NHL organizations did.

Just because Patrick's migraine issues weren't known by the public doesn't mean it wasn't in his medical records.

"It’s not like this issue popped up out of nowhere, either, as Patrick has a history of migraines that dates back to his youth (and a family history as well)."

Source: 10 things: Nolan Patrick battling migraine disorder, Morgan Frost heading to AHL, Joel Farabee shines

You're pretty stubborn. Again, Patrick did not begin experiencing migraine issues until after the draft. The only other time was when he was a child. He did not have a migraine issues as a teenager or all through his junior career. It did not exist. Unless you think a player having the measles as a kid can effect his draft status. There was no reports. End of story.