2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[ponder719]

Just curious, are Philly fans on other boards this obsessive over a decade ago?
Do sixers fans blame Coangelo first and give this gm a free lunch?
Or if only the sixers took paul pierce....
Do eagle fans moan about the carson wentz trade still?
Do fans hate Jordan Davis and say why no Hamilton?
Is the phillies bullpen failure all due to matt klentak?
Are the phillies still paying for the Jake Arrieta signing?
Do phillies fans get angry at jd drew still and get into twitter quote debates?

I'm not on any Eagles or Phillies boards since KFFL died, but I do pop into a Sixers board now and again, and yeah, there are posters there who have long memories and a tendency to relitigate the past, same as we have here.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Rare is the day I get to use this image, but every time I do I can't help but smile.

View attachment 960413

Pray tell, what other, and I use this term loosely, "highly regarded" scouts soured on Patrick pre-draft? You used the word "scouts" plural, so I'm assuming there is more than one.

Apparently you didn't read the article.

There are quotes from two different scouts from teams picking in the top 10 who had soured on Patrick.

Plus a WHL head coach.

And that's just one article.

And we know that the Flyers' scouts didn't have him ranked in the top 2, even though Hexy overrode them.

I think it's pretty safe to infer his stock was dropping in a lot of circles. I don't think the article found the only 3 people in the world who had soured on him as the draft approached.

Sure sounds like those character concerns were circulating widely. And if one WHL coach noticed lackluster play in his draft year, you can bet a hell of a lot of other people saw the same thing.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Tortorella's style is not aggressive. It is conservative. Other schemes are far more demanding of centers. The Flyers play a low zone collapse in the defensive zone. Where it's not center, LW. RW, it's F1, F2, F3. The first forward on the back check is F1 and takes the center position defensively. Other systems defensive zone coverage such as teams that play man to man or something like Vigneault's hybrid Man/Overload defensive zone system is far more demanding. So is the way Boston played their low zone collapse when they had Bergeron and used the center as a rover on the puck defensively. Or the way that Barry Trotz liked to play the low zone collapse with being aggressive and looking to out man the opposition on the puck to get it back. Tortorella likes to collapse and block shots. It's not close to an aggressive style. His forecheck is also not close to being the most aggressive. It's a 2-1-2 spread forecheck and is not nearly as aggressive as say the 3-2 press forecheck that Laviolette likes to play.

Torts' forecheck is pretty darn aggressive. At least that's the way he wants it. And though he used to play a 2-1-2 spread back in the day, it seems to me that with the Flyers more often it has been an aggressive, not passive, 1-2-2.

 

[freakydallas13]

Apparently you didn't read the article.

There are quotes from two different scouts from teams picking in the top 10 who had soured on Patrick.

Plus a WHL head coach.

And that's just one article.

And we know that the Flyers' scouts didn't have him ranked in the top 2, even though Hexy overrode them.

I think it's pretty safe to infer his stock was dropping in a lot of circles. I don't think the article found the only 3 people in the world who had soured on him as the draft approached.

Sure sounds like those character concerns were circulating widely. And if one WHL coach noticed lackluster play in his draft year, you can bet a hell of a lot of other people saw the same thing.

Can you give me the names of these scouts? And what exactly it was they said? I know you care about solid facts and not just "it was reported..." Blurbs that one person throws out, so I'm sure you can give me some quotes from named scouts here.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Can you give me the names of these scouts? And what exactly it was they said?

Ohhhhh, so now you want to move the goalposts?

Well, the article gives quotes from two scouts of teams picking in the top 10, so you can find the quotes in the article. As well as quotes from a rival WHL head coach.

Are you trying to imply because the article doesn't name these people that it doesn't count, or is a complete fabrication?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ahhh the mythical McCagg article, the outlier that nobody else supports from a guy who generates the most incorrect draft takes every year.

 

[Curufinwe]

Here's Elliotte about the Flyers today at 27:22: The FAN Hockey Show
"They are not afraid to do things." Having Qs about goaltending. and looking for centres. Hopeful but want to accelerate. Looking around. Laughton has some interest. Are they really willing to move Frost or Farabee?

Are the Flyers, currently 15th in their conference with 39 games left, actually looking to add?

Ahhh the mythical McCagg article, the outlier that nobody else supports from a guy who generates the most incorrect draft takes every year.

 

[freakydallas13]

Ohhhhh, so now you want to move the goalposts?

Well, the article gives quotes from two scouts of teams picking in the top 10, so you can find the quotes in the article. As well as quotes from a rival WHL head coach.

Are you trying to imply because the article doesn't name these people that it doesn't count, or is a complete fabrication?

I know you're a stickler for direct reporting, so I assumed there were some names of people you could give? Is that not that case?

Also, your source here says Patrick would have still been a no-brainer to draft at 4th or 5th overall? That doesn't sound like they hate him nearly as much as you are implying.

 

[freakydallas13]

Are the Flyers, currently 15th in their conference with 39 games left, actually looking to add?

When appealing to authority, I too choose the one that would have drafted Laine before Mathews.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I know you're a stickler for direct reporting, so I assumed there were some names of people you could give? Is that not that case?

Also, your source here says Patrick would have still been a no-brainer to draft at 4th or 5th overall? That doesn't sound like they hate him nearly as much as you are implying.

Oh, it isn't direct reporting if you directly quote a source without giving his name, just a description of what he does?

That's really your stance?

Great point. I guess you've never heard of protecting your sources before.

And considering I was responding to (and disputing) a post (one of many that we've had on here) that alleged Patrick was an obvious league-wide consensus #2, and that everyone would have gone crazy had the Flyers passed on him at 2, what difference does it make that one of the scouts who soured on him said he'd take him at 4 or 5?

The point is that he wasn't a leaguewide consensus #1 anymore, and he wasn't even a leaguewide consensus #2 anymore, and the hockey world was souring on his 1 or 2 status as the draft approached.

When at one point your are considered the consensus #1, and months later you have a scout saying, well, I guess we'd take him at 4 or 5, that's the definition of souring.

 

[MJL66]

Torts' forecheck is pretty darn aggressive. At least that's the way he wants it. And though he used to play a 2-1-2 spread back in the day, it seems to me that with the Flyers more often it has been an aggressive, not passive, 1-2-2.

Every team plays a 1-2-2 or something similar situationally. A 1-2-2 forecheck by it's nature is not an aggressive forecheck. The Flyers mainly play a 2-1-2 spread forecheck. His forecheck is not nearly as aggressive as other teams mainly due to his insistence that F3 stay above the puck at all times.

 

[Beef Invictus]

McCagg doesn't name sources: Gospel

Friedman doesn't name sources: Fake. Nonsense. Doesn't exist. The sources must go public directly.

Also please pay no mind to the gulf of credibility between them

 

[Ghosts Beer]

McCagg doesn't name sources: Gospel

Friedman doesn't name sources: Fake. Nonsense. Doesn't exist. The sources must go public directly.

Also please pay no mind to the gulf of credibility between them

McCagg described his sources, just didn't give the specific names of the people.

Friedman didn't give any sources at all.

See how that works?

 

[freakydallas13]

Oh, it isn't direct reporting if you directly quote a source without giving his name, just a description of what he does?

That's really your stance?

My stance is I want to give me as many sources, quotes, and named people as you can that say Patrick pre-draft wasn't a top 2 pick pre-draft? Because so far it's just a nebulous "scouts" quoted by McCagg, which is not nothing, but not also the supreme pre-draft authority you seem to be painting it as

Great point. I guess you've never heard of protecting your sources before.

And considering I was responding to (and disputing) a post (one of many that we've had on here) that alleged Patrick was an obvious league-wide consensus #2, and that everyone would have gone crazy had the Flyers passed on him at 2, what difference does it make that one of the scouts who soured on him said he'd take him at 4 or 5?

The point is that he wasn't a leaguewide consensus #1 anymore, and he wasn't even a leaguewide consensus #2 anymore, and the hockey world was souring on his 1 or 2 status as the draft approached.

What if I posted every other pre-draft scout, rankings, and draft lists that had him at either first or second overall? You think ~95% of scouts saying that means it's pretty damn close to a consensus? Because I do. And it's a massive part of the context you keep leaving out of McCagg thinking he's not 2nd overall quality but a no brainer at 4th overall.

When at one point your are considered the consensus #1, and months later you have a scout saying, well, I guess we'd take him at 4 or 5, that's the definition of souring.

It's not "well I guess I'd take him at 4 or 5", it's "he would be a no brainer at 4 or 5". Those are the exact words of the Scout. What kind of player do you think is a no brainer at 4th overall, a bust? Someone not even worth talking about at 2nd overall? That's what you're trying to say? Because that sounds insane to me.

You claiming Patrick was draft day poison at 2nd overall because a known draft contrarian wouldn't have drafted him at 2nd but would take him as a no brainer at 4th overall is a pretty weak argument, which is why I was hoping you had more names to back it up.

 

[deadhead]

Yea, that's why you draft a player in the first round. Hoping he can instantly contribute in the bottom six and the PK. Fits in perfect with the Flyers development methods. Have to grind along the boards in the D zone before we let you use your skill.

No. It's more a matter that you don't have to shelter him as a 19 year old rookie.
And that means you can play him more minutes in more situations.

The reason you want a lot of young players to start in LHV is they're not fundamentally sound, and you need to choose matchups at the NHL level, so their minutes are limited. So you give them a lot of minutes at a lower level until they're NHL ready.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Every team plays a 1-2-2 or something similar situationally. A 1-2-2 forecheck by it's nature is not an aggressive forecheck. The Flyers mainly play a 2-1-2 spread forecheck. His forecheck is not nearly as aggressive as other teams mainly due to his insistence that F3 stay above the puck at all times.

I coached a lot of basketball in my day, and there are a lot of similarities with hockey systems.

In basketball you can play a 1-2-2 a variety of ways. You can play it as a passive trap. You can play it as an aggressive trap.

You can play a 1-2-2 press at full-court, 3/4-court, or 1/2 court.

It's similar in hockey. You can play it with various levels of passivity or aggression and push it forward or sit it back to various levels of the ice.

 

[Beef Invictus]

McCagg described his sources, just didn't give the specific names of the people.

Friedman didn't give any sources at all.

See how that works?

Neither one did anything to name their sources, so no, I don't see the difference. Per your own standards, established by you, you should be heaping hatred and incredulity upon McCagg, but you aren't because he is saying what you want to hear. Sorry that Friedman wasn't interested in maniacs spurred on by the Flyers harassing his sources because of him. That's responsible journalism.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I coached a lot of basketball in my day, and there are a lot of similarities with hockey systems.

In basketball you can play a 1-2-2 a variety of ways. You can play it as a passive trap. You can play it as an aggressive trap.

You can play a 1-2-2 press at full-court, 3/4-court, or 1/2 court.

It's similar in hockey. You can play it with various levels of passivity or aggression and push it forward or sit it back to various levels of the ice.

I always had a feeling you understood that how you play a base scheme is more important than the base scheme itself. Good to know you were indeed only pretending not to understand it in years past.

 

[Magua]

My favorite Nolan Patrick cognitive dissonance for the “it ruined the organization 4ever” people is they didn’t tank for that pick. They finished 13th worst. The same spot as when they traded the 13th+ for Ristolainen. And the same spot they drafted Luchanko. And we must ignore what they netted with the pick when they finished 4th worst.

A player having a brain injury post-draft is different than a team having a brain injury pre-draft.

 

[FLYguy3911]

These the same scouts that signed off on Luchanko over Buium?

 

[freakydallas13]

My favorite Nolan Patrick cognitive dissonance for the “it ruined the organization 4ever” people is they didn’t tank for that pick. They finished 13th worst. The same spot as when they traded the 13th+ for Ristolainen. And the same spot they drafted Luchanko.

I also love the fact the Patrick's most hindsighted vocal critic today was tooting the horn of success when Hextall picked him on draft day.

 

[MJL66]

No. It's more a matter that you don't have to shelter him as a 19 year old rookie.
And that means you can play him more minutes in more situations.

The reason you want a lot of young players to start in LHV is they're not fundamentally sound, and you need to choose matchups at the NHL level, so their minutes are limited. So you give them a lot of minutes at a lower level until they're NHL ready.

You move the goalposts repeatedly. The conversation was about playing a young player at the NHL level. I would agree if a skilled player is not ready to play in a skilled role, he should start in the AHL if he is eligible. What you and the Flyers apparently don't understand, is that on a rebuilding team, a young skilled players should play with other highly skilled players. Let him play to his strengths rather than force him to develop other areas of his game before letting him do so. The Flyers development methods. Like most things are archaic.

 

[Cody Webster]

Codys Laugh emojis is the best part of this thread.

Just making up for lost time

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sometimes I think about how our other #2 pick farting out and being traded away as a disappointment wasn't labelled as a franchise-crippling error to be habitually obsessed over nonstop, yet Patrick is.

And it's easy to notice that's because the Flyers made a lot of other good moves in the JVR era which obviated the disappointment, while the Flyers haven't made basically any good moves since Patrick was drafted, which makes his whiff feel worse than it is.

Again, "luck" is nothing but a mirror for your competency.

 

[Magua]

I also love the fact the Patrick's most hindsighted vocal critic today was tooting the horn of success when Hextall picked him on draft day.

Buddy was the high guy on Gauthier too. He’s the forum’s Jim Cramer with talent evaluating. Or maybe our pea brains just can’t understand.

This is all a distraction from: is MacEwen still better offensively than Frost?