2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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No one is complaining about Cates' defence (which is great, or at least it was going into this season), we are complaining because yet again it sounds like the coach wants to shoehorn Cates into an offensive role he isn't cut out for.

If they would just leave him be as the 4th liner he is, pretty sure 95% of the complaints against him would disappear.

Connecting the dots, we know what Tortorella thinks.

1. I have Cates, and I am sure he is going to begin scoring for some reason
2. It is unfair for Frost to be here under me

Dude sure seems to be signaling that Cates just needs room to shine (which is sure to happen! He plays so Right-Wayly!), and he has an idea of how to make room.

Cates is a really nice piece to have as a shutdown winger on a good team. Paired with solid 4th liners who can push some offense, you could make a very good 4th line with him. I would love for that to happen here, but it won't. By the time this team is in Michkov's prime, what do we think he'd be? This is a piece we should probably be looking to sell high on. It'll never happen. He's gonna be Laughton's Heir.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Frost played himself out of a job, Torts even said he's the most skilled center. He wants him to succeed, he needs his offense. There's something wrong with Frost physically, he's a better skater than he's shown. No one is blocking him but himself.

I think Torts wants to push Cates, the way he pushes a lot of young players.
Cates was a LW in college moved to Center in the NHL, then LW when he returned from injury last season.
So center is still a learning experience, and playing offense first center a bigger one, since he was on a defense first college team and used as a shutdown center his first season here.
It's not turning him into a top 6 C, it's seeing if he can play offense well enough to be a solid two way 3C.
 

mize370

Registered User
Nov 2, 2009
2,194
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Why do I question the Flyers ability to develop players?

Couturier was pegged as a defense first player and given no pp time for years despite the fact that he was seen as potentially the first pick overall in his draft year before he contracted mono. By the time they started to realize there was more to his game than checking, he had 5 years of hard wear and tear on his tires.

Sanheim, clearly a skilled player, has rarely been given an extended look on the pp. Hell, for years the organization favored the less talented Provorov and even Robert Hagg over TS.

They continually play Laughton at center when his skill set is much better utilized on the wing.

Time and time again, they put skilled players on lines with grinders and then wonder why those players don’t produce.

They see no value in a player like Ghost but fawn over a prospect like Hunter McDonald.

They pass over a Dman with 1D potential because they feel having York, Drysdale and Andrae doesn’t allow them to draft another sub 6’1 D, even though Drysdale has done squat, Andrae is still a wildcard and there is no guarantee that York, or any of the three, will even be here by the time a guy like Buium would be coming into his prime.

They keep Luchanko on the roster simply to make themselves feel smart and to try and justify the selection. The kid was nowhere near ready to play in the NHL.

There’s more, much more, but I think the point has been made.
Bigg E Stop making sense. You know who wont like it
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
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Why do I question the Flyers ability to develop players?

Couturier was pegged as a defense first player and given no pp time for years despite the fact that he was seen as potentially the first pick overall in his draft year before he contracted mono. By the time they started to realize there was more to his game than checking, he had 5 years of hard wear and tear on his tires.

Sanheim, clearly a skilled player, has rarely been given an extended look on the pp. Hell, for years the organization favored the less talented Provorov and even Robert Hagg over TS.

They continually play Laughton at center when his skill set is much better utilized on the wing.

Time and time again, they put skilled players on lines with grinders and then wonder why those players don’t produce.

They see no value in a player like Ghost but fawn over a prospect like Hunter McDonald.

They pass over a Dman with 1D potential because they feel having York, Drysdale and Andrae doesn’t allow them to draft another sub 6’1 D, even though Drysdale has done squat, Andrae is still a wildcard and there is no guarantee that York, or any of the three, will even be here by the time a guy like Buium would be coming into his prime.

They keep Luchanko on the roster simply to make themselves feel smart and to try and justify the selection. The kid was nowhere near ready to play in the NHL.

There’s more, much more, but I think the point has been made.
Remember when they started to give up on Simon Gagne as a scorer and tried to turn him into a defensive winger, that is until Ed Snider of all people slammed his hand down on the table after watching Gagne play internationally and asked them what the hell they were doing?
 

Beef Invictus

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Frost played himself out of a job, Torts even said he's the most skilled center. He wants him to succeed, he needs his offense. There's something wrong with Frost physically, he's a better skater than he's shown. No one is blocking him but himself.

I think Torts wants to push Cates, the way he pushes a lot of young players.
Cates was a LW in college moved to Center in the NHL, then LW when he returned from injury last season.
So center is still a learning experience, and playing offense first center a bigger one, since he was on a defense first college team and used as a shutdown center his first season here.
It's not turning him into a top 6 C, it's seeing if he can play offense well enough to be a solid two way 3C.

There was nothing Frost could do to stay in the job. He's been benched in the middle of playing well, for example, while certain other players never see the bench while playing worse. Tortorella has been dying to get rid of him since Day 1. This has been intensely obvious.

A major part of Frost's problems can be chalked up to his coach deliberately destroying his confidence for years. Fun fact, that's bad player development.
 
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Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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Tippett needs 40 points in 73 games to get to 50

Cates needs 23 points in 73 games to get to 25

Tippett, Cates, Farabee, Foerster, Drysdale all coming in under expectations: Silence

Frost Coming In Under Expectations: Numerous manifestos about how horrendous and lazy he is


Jeff Carter Syndrome. The team and fanbase never got immunity from it the first time the virus hit.
 

Lord Defect

Secretary of Blowtorching
Nov 13, 2013
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Tippett, Cates, Farabee, Foerster, Drysdale all coming in under expectations: Silence

Frost Coming In Under Expectations: Numerous manifestos about how horrendous and lazy he is


Jeff Carter Syndrome. The team and fanbase never got immunity from it the first time the virus hit
Carters last season or two here he dogged the ever loving shit out of his play. I cannot remember a single instance of him rushing for the puck. It was glide glide glide. Score when were up by two.
 

Beef Invictus

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Carters last season or two here he dogged the ever loving shit out of his play. I cannot remember a single instance of him rushing for the puck. It was glide glide glide. Score when were up by two.

Factually untrue. He led the team in scoring while they were trailing, and that's when most of his scoring occurred. He was also one of the team's most effective defensive players.

Evidently people only noticed when he'd snag an ENG, and not when he'd tie the game.
 
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Lord Defect

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Factually untrue. He led the team in scoring while they were trailing, and that's when most of his scoring occurred. He was also one of the team's most effective defensive players.

Evidently people only noticed when he'd snag an ENG, and not when he'd tie the game.
If I’m wrong or not I know what my eyes told me. He dogged every damn shift.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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Some quick thoughts. In 1975, there were 32 NHL and WHA teams. Europe was negligible as a prospect pool and the USSR was shut off. 32 pro teams drew talent from a pool of 239 million people, US and Canada combined. In reality this number was much lower because once you got towards the South, the infrastructure for growing hockey didn't exist the way it does now. I'm not going to bother guessing at that, because it isn't even needed; just know that number is a lot lower, probably by half.

In 2024, ignoring Europe since I don't want to scheme that out regionally, Russia, US, and CAN combine for 522 million people. 32 NHL teams draw players from that population pool of half a billion, and that's a lowball. People who read my nonsense in the past know where this is going.

In the 70s, the available talent was far lower. That's the brutal math of it. Half the population to draw from, and also the youth development programs weren't at full steam yet either; hell, the boilers had barely even fired up. Teams didn't assemble lineups with 1 or 2 scoring lines, followed by several filler lines who mostly tried to survive until the scorers could get back on, just because that was "honest" and "pure." It was necessity. There wasn't enough talent to do anything else while competing with an upstart league and everyone else in your own league.

Here in the 20s, with vastly better youth development and well over twice the population to draw from, there is enough talent. The best teams are often rolling 3 or 4 lines that will outscore their counterparts, instead of holding on until the top lines take the ice. The good teams are actively trying to compile the needed talent to do that. Building from the top down and pushing the dregs downwards into the minors.

The Flyers are not in the 2020s. The Flyers behave like it is 1975. They build teams like the talent needed doesn't exist. Like if someone isn't clearly good enough to be a top scorer on the team, then they are only going to get their team wrecked trying to do that so the best thing is to just turn them into defensive drones that survive their shifts, because that was frequently the nature of the skill gap in the 70s, which isn't the case anymore. They aren't even attempting to max out talent and have it trickle down the roster. They build like there is only enough talent to assemble one or two scoring lines. And the bottom half is for survival. Worse, they glorify that method that was rooted in scarcity that doesn't exist anymore.

It's unreal how outmoded their thinking is. They're living in another time, and their appraisal of that time is clouded by nostalgia for it as the "good old days" instead of the "trying to make do" days. They've carefully trained Briere to follow this thought process, too.

There just isn't any fixing this. There is no way that a front office that thinks like this is ever going to stumble into a winning roster. They're deliberately self-limiting themselves to emulate an extinct time of shortage, for no reason. It's like choosing to live like you're poor, while you have tons of money in the bank waiting to be taken, and while also lamenting that you're poor.

They've really gotta fire everyone. Because everyone of them is hypnotized by this nostalgia. And nothing is going to get better until they break free of the past and think like it's right now.

On a positive note, it is certainly a unique approach!
 

Appleyard

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I can categorically tell you that a lot of teams still believe firmly that there are set "ways" to build a winner.

And that in turn there are some NHL teams who would turn down 50 point players for free because they don't "fit" on their 3rd line that has scored 70 point combined over 82 games while being meh defensively... but "playing hard".

It might seem unbelievable. And I would not have fully believed it either until say the last 2-3 years where have quite good relationships with quite a lot of agents!

I don't think the Flyers are quite that silly. And I am still waiting to see with Briere tbh... but yeh... that stuff happens.
 

Lord Defect

Secretary of Blowtorching
Nov 13, 2013
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He was one of the best players in the team. He also happened to be the smoothest skater on the team, so people thought he wasn't trying. Efficiency is often confused with lack of effort
I’m perfectly fine with being wrong here.
I distinctly remember his last year with us he was often behind the play gliding towards the zone rather than hustling.
Dude was talented as hell, he just didn’t seem like he cared.
 

Flyerfan4life

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
35,589
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Richmond BC, Canada
I can categorically tell you that a lot of teams still believe firmly that there are set "ways" to build a winner.

And that in turn there are some NHL teams who would turn down 50 point players for free because they don't "fit" on their 3rd line that has scored 70 point combined over 82 games while being meh defensively... but "playing hard".

It might seem unbelievable. And I would not have fully believed it either until say the last 2-3 years where have quite good relationships with quite a lot of agents!

I don't think the Flyers are quite that silly. And I am still waiting to see with Briere tbh... but yeh... that stuff happens.
you should #buckle in..
 
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Kelmitchell2

Registered User
Aug 30, 2020
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The wooooorst for everybody. Hormones are a hell of a drug.

Hopefully she starts feeling better sooner then later.
She's getting there! She's starting to try and do more and more, and I understand, I haven't pressured her, or forced her, but doing it all has been difficult as hell especially since the baby still isn't sleeping through the night, not sure why, she will be 10 months old in 4 days
 

Kelmitchell2

Registered User
Aug 30, 2020
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You want to trade Sanheim, 28, with 7 years left on a bargain deal, for Bouchard, 25, who'd you'd have to give a much larger 8 year extension. Why?

Trading Sanheim and TK would mean this team wouldn't be competitive until 2030, so Bouchard would have this monster deal and basically skate in circles for the first 5 years of his new deal.
Not saying I'm wanting to trade sanhiem but I don't see a world where we are truly competitive before 2030 either way
 

VladDrag

Registered User
Feb 6, 2018
6,342
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I can categorically tell you that a lot of teams still believe firmly that there are set "ways" to build a winner.

And that in turn there are some NHL teams who would turn down 50 point players for free because they don't "fit" on their 3rd line that has scored 70 point combined over 82 games while being meh defensively... but "playing hard".

It might seem unbelievable. And I would not have fully believed it either until say the last 2-3 years where have quite good relationships with quite a lot of agents!

I don't think the Flyers are quite that silly. And I am still waiting to see with Briere tbh... but yeh... that stuff happens.
I recognize this isn't quite what you talking about and somewhat tangential, it's more related to the bold.

I can buy that there are elements of this organization that want to shed their 'ways' of doing things. I can disagree with their evaluations and process, but I can see steps forward -- such as developing their analytical group, first signing of Hathaway and Poehling, Briere's apparent (by reported accounts) reluctance to trade Frost for what they deem fair value.

But just yesterday, you had Torts talking pretty specifically about their center depth, and in turn giving away information about the organizational (or at least his personal) philosophy. Torts is actively turning down a 50 point player in Frost because he doesn't 'fit' his mold of what a player looks like. He talks up Noah Cates because that's the type of player that 'fits' his mold. Torts did it with Karlsson and with Zuccarello...He's not going to change now.

So while I want to agree that the Flyers aren't that silly -- we're actively seeing it. We're actively seeing a team turn down effective players because of fit. I'd have a lot more confidence if they got rid of Torts and instilled Shaw as the coach.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
50,939
22,193
I can categorically tell you that a lot of teams still believe firmly that there are set "ways" to build a winner.

And that in turn there are some NHL teams who would turn down 50 point players for free because they don't "fit" on their 3rd line that has scored 70 point combined over 82 games while being meh defensively... but "playing hard".

It might seem unbelievable. And I would not have fully believed it either until say the last 2-3 years where have quite good relationships with quite a lot of agents!

I don't think the Flyers are quite that silly. And I am still waiting to see with Briere tbh... but yeh... that stuff happens.
Of course context matters, that 50 point player might be a 30 point player on that 3rd line and only PP2 time, but still wants to be paid like a 50 point player. There's lots of players who were marginal on good teams who scored like a demon on a bad team in an offense first role.

Agents look at their clients through rose colored glasses, of course.

The real finds are younger players with the talent to be 50 point players, but can't get the PT on a top team - but that's tricky, Lundell eventually worked out in Florida but Newhook went to Montreal and actually got worse.
 

ponder719

M-M-M-Matvei and the Jett
Jul 2, 2013
7,825
10,827
Philadelphia, PA
So while I want to agree that the Flyers aren't that silly -- we're actively seeing it. We're actively seeing a team turn down effective players because of fit. I'd have a lot more confidence if they got rid of Torts and instilled Shaw as the coach.

Being real, I'd have a lot more confidence if they got rid of Torts in favor of anyone. Shaw, Lappy, Rocky, doesn't matter, because I don't think any of them would get the deference Torts gets in terms of building the roster. Sure, they're probably all worse coaches (maybe not Shaw, I would be reasonably happy promoting him) but at least they'd be in the appropriate place in the pecking order. Torts is not.
 

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