2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[Beef Invictus]

I can categorically tell you that a lot of teams still believe firmly that there are set "ways" to build a winner.

And that in turn there are some NHL teams who would turn down 50 point players for free because they don't "fit" on their 3rd line that has scored 70 point combined over 82 games while being meh defensively... but "playing hard".

It might seem unbelievable. And I would not have fully believed it either until say the last 2-3 years where have quite good relationships with quite a lot of agents!

I don't think the Flyers are quite that silly. And I am still waiting to see with Briere tbh... but yeh... that stuff happens.

Yep. The sport is filled with managers who glorify the league of their childhood or their fathers, and they think the "2 scoring lines 2 grinding lines" setup was some chivalrous choice with inherent merit, and not a scarcity-driven necessity. It's unreal how thickheaded so many people running this sport are.

More wild? The Flyers were moving past that. In the beginning and middle term of Homer's tenure as GM, they were intent on injecting as much talent as possible and letting it fill out the roster. They built a true 3-scoring-line forward lineup and looked to add more. Then they hit the first bump and threw it all away to travel back into Pointless Nostalgia Land.

NYR and TOR are two other teams who tampered with moving into present talent conditions and are now running away.

Of concern from Briere was his statement that we aren't going to be a talent chocked team; we'll have the one or two high paid players, then grinders. That sure seems to speak to an intent to build one or two scoring lines and then turn down additional talent. It would also explain why they're so intent on convincing themselves Frost is expendable. They have their talent, what do they need him for? They want another mucker.

 

[Appleyard]

I think Carolina, not St Louis is their template.

Svechnikov is their one high pick, and while a solid forward, kind you can get in the teens.
Necas #12, Aho #35, Jarvis #13, etc. Depth, Blake #109, Drury #42,
But also added numerous veterans, Burns, Orlov, Ghost, Walker, Chatfield on defense, Carrier, Martinook, Roslovic, Robinson at forward to go with Staal and Slavin.

What has held them back is the lack of a franchise goalie who can carry them deep into the POs.

Now I don't think most teams can patch together a team out of trades and discards as well as Carolina has done. They traded (2) top ten picks for Hamilton, let Hamilton walk and didn't miss a beat.

But they have an organizational philosophy they've stuck with for almost a decade now, and I think that's a key to good decision making, you know who fits on your team and who might fit on other teams and you stick to your guns instead of changing your approach every three years.

Well they better hire one of the most innovative coaches in the NHL and hire a smart blogger as the GM if following Carolina's plan!

Carolina have understood market inefficiencies better than anyone, hence why they can compete while having probably half the overall budget the Flyers have.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

In what world does one see Carolina, and think the Flyers scouting (pro or amateur) is on par. That’s insanity. Flyers are absolute dogshit in talent evaluation when compared to the rest of the NHL.

Weird to exclude St Louis as they have said it themselves it’s a team they model after.

Same world that Fletcher is on par with Zito and Sakic but one of those was just unlucky.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Well they better hire one of the most innovative coaches in the NHL and hire a smart blogger as the GM if following Carolina's plan!

Fingers crossed that an NHL team sends me a PM asking if I know anyone!

 

[freakydallas13]

There are 32 teams in the NHL.

And a salary cap.

You can't ice an entire team full of stars.

Strawman, no one is saying the entire roster should be Allstars.

I think Carolina, not St Louis is their template.

Svechnikov is their one high pick, and while a solid forward, kind you can get in the teens.
Necas #12, Aho #35, Jarvis #13, etc. Depth, Blake #109, Drury #42,
But also added numerous veterans, Burns, Orlov, Ghost, Walker, Chatfield on defense, Carrier, Martinook, Roslovic, Robinson at forward to go with Staal and Slavin.

What has held them back is the lack of a franchise goalie who can carry them deep into the POs.

Now I don't think most teams can patch together a team out of trades and discards as well as Carolina has done. They traded (2) top ten picks for Hamilton, let Hamilton walk and didn't miss a beat.

But they have an organizational philosophy they've stuck with for almost a decade now, and I think that's a key to good decision making, you know who fits on your team and who might fit on other teams and you stick to your guns instead of changing your approach every three years.

You think the team that had zero interest in interviewing Carolina's current GM for their own GM position, is trying to emulate Carolina?

 

[deadhead]

If Carolina was their template, they literally could have had their GM. Remember when Hilferty was important?

Brind'Amour? If people think Torts runs the show here, I suspect Brind'Amour has a lot more power in Carolina. It was hiring him, not any great personnel moves, that turned that team around.

I'm not sold on Tulsky yet, their drafting has been pretty poor so far the last few years, loaded up on 2nd and 3rd rd picks to little avail.
Since 2019, Jarvis 2020, Blake 2021 (this season), are the only draft picks currently on the NHL roster.
Don't know how much input he had, and it's still early, but . . .

They've done better on veteran trades and managing the cap (letting Hamilton, Pesce, et al walk).

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost is not a player you build around, he's not a top 6 center, and he's not a guy who'll raise the play of lesser wings as a 3C. He doesn't PK and he's generally on PP2. He'd have to sign a team friendly contract to be worth keeping. He's gotten plenty of opportunities to shine and has fallen short.

Cates is a role player, and they don't think he's anything more, or Torts wouldn't talk about the need to get multiple centers. But he's a better fit in the bottom six than Frost. Torts is going to push him on offense to round out his game, not turn him into a 2C.

The problem against the Avs was talent, period. Look at the defense they put out there.
They need 2 centers (hopefully Jett is one of them), another top 4 D-man, and a couple goalies to emerge from the scrum.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Thats all you can do. Try to take on as much as you can, be patient and it will pass.

As far as the sleep you're probably doing everything you should. People never like to admit it but there is a huge element of luck with babies. You could be doing everything you're friends are to try to promote good sleep, but you just got a baby that doesn't sleep well.

That will pass too. But damn if it isn't hard while going through the process.

The Child was a terrible sleeper. She made sure to hit every single sleep regression. BTW, I think the whole "sleep regression" concept is BS that people came up with to feel better about their kid not sleeping; divert the blame off the parents to the kid. Which is valid. It is the kid's fault. Go the f*** to sleep lol.

New Child on our end slept through the night as a newborn and has never stopped. Beefette has had to give up and hand her over to me for the night shift maybe five times in over a year? Six? Compared to every single night with The Child. We did nothing to cause this. We won the lottery the second time. Pure luck.

 

[ponder719]

Well they better hire one of the most innovative coaches in the NHL and hire a smart blogger as the GM if following Carolina's plan!

I keep saying we're a couple good lottery tickets away from me hiring you to run this damn place, I just haven't hit the big jackpot yet.

 

[Beef Invictus]

remember when people freaked out cuz he shot the puck directly inyo the goalies glove in the 2010SC final whislt playing with a broken foot..

good times...

Worth noting he did not shoot it directly into the glove, the shot was tipped on a sell-out defensive block

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think it is quite amusing the amount of people who...

don't agree with tanking/picking high years in a row.
also don't agree with trading for guys like Rossi (ship has passed), Zegras, Jiricek...

Same group were also generally those who did not like idea of going after Hamilton... the only top tier D who made it to UFA before age 30 in last 10 years or so!

I can understand those philosophies in isolation... but all together!?!?!


like, so... where do you get high end players from then in a cap era who will be on your team for 5+ years in primes and give them a window?

Because when on earth do 1C and 1D go to UFA or get traded before age 28 or so? Tavares, Karlsson, Hamilton, Subban and Eichel? I think that is basically the list in the last 15 years?

The only "other" way to get them is sign UFAs/trade for older guys who will likely only have ~3 years left of prime if lucky and then cap hits will mean your window is over as soon as they drop off... giving the team a ~3 year window and then forcing a re-build or a lot of pain... IE the Flyers in the late 2000s! And that strategy has worked for very few teams. (cough, St. Louis who had high picks still...)

The most common thread among those trades was that the teams who did those trades were/are famous for horrendous management, too. Horribly managed teams who pretend 1970s conditions still exist because they romanticize that roster setup are constantly getting themselves victimized by more competent teams. The Flyers are firmly in "victimized" territory. We are justified in fearing every trade.

Hamilton being a maybe-exception. Except not really, because he was traded in the midst of Boston gearing up to blow a chance to score a franchise-changing array of talents somehow in the teens and they said "nah." Even I knew they should have taken Barzal and TK, and I'm incompetent. So it's not like their judgement at the time was anything but horrific.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Worth noting he did not shoot it directly into the glove, the shot was tipped on a sell-out defensive block

oh.. weird i remember it going into a glove..

 

[Beef Invictus]

Flyers don’t find that level of talent crucial to winning.

They can win with overwhelming depth, quality coaching, and by having one of the hardest working clubs in the league.

As asinine strategy, but it’s where we are at for the last decade, and counting.

They are convinced that you can build depth without talent, despite that being fundamentally against the very definition of depth.

Nobody can say their ideas aren't unique

 

[Beef Invictus]

There are 32 teams in the NHL.

And a salary cap.

You can't ice an entire team full of stars.

And players who are scorers and skill players in the AHL often can't produce in the NHL. At least not enough to outweigh their flaws like they can in the AHL.

This is why Gerry Mayhew tears up the AHL but has only played 57 NHL games, and none since 2021/22.

So where are all these skill players with whom 32 teams are going to be able to round out their 3rd and 4th lines and 3rd pairs?

I literally just last night made a long post pointing out why building like this is dead and extinct, and aiming for 1970s style roster construction as your goal is downright quitting in advance. Absolute loser behavior from every management group that does it, Flyers included.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Strawman, no one is saying the entire roster should be Allstars.

Please tell me how 32 teams are going to round out their 3rd and 4th lines, and 3rd pairings, with skill players, when there's a salary cap and the AHL is loaded with "skill" players who have failed in the NHL?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Brind'Amour? If people think Torts runs the show here, I suspect Brind'Amour has a lot more power in Carolina. It was hiring him, not any great personnel moves, that turned that team around.

No

 

[Beef Invictus]

Please tell me how 32 teams are going to round out their 3rd and 4th lines, and 3rd pairings, with skill players, when there's a salary cap and the AHL is loaded with "skill" players who have failed in the NHL?

Look at the good teams who do that. Hard to say it's so impossible when teams manage it annually.

Yes, it is hard. The Flyers don't even try. You lambast Carter for being lazy and taking nights off, Flyers management makes Carter look like the hardest worker the league has ever seen. Management equivalent of lazy floaters.

 

[freakydallas13]

Please tell me how 32 teams are going to round out their 3rd and 4th lines, and 3rd pairings, with skill players, when there's a salary cap and the AHL is loaded with "skill" players who have failed in the NHL?

Well for starters, stop signing face punchers for four years to fill out your roster.

 

[deadhead]

So you believe they should go out and sign/trade for a bunch of second tier skilled veterans so they can have talented depth?

Because it ain't coming from anywhere else for a couple seasons.

That's how most teams with skilled 3rd lines do it.
And you say that, but you never give examples of teams that actually do that.
We want evidence.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Brind'Amour? If people think Torts runs the show here, I suspect Brind'Amour has a lot more power in Carolina. It was hiring him, not any great personnel moves, that turned that team around.

I'm not sold on Tulsky yet, their drafting has been pretty poor so far the last few years, loaded up on 2nd and 3rd rd picks to little avail.
Since 2019, Jarvis 2020, Blake 2021 (this season), are the only draft picks currently on the NHL roster.
Don't know how much input he had, and it's still early, but . . .

They've done better on veteran trades and managing the cap (letting Hamilton, Pesce, et al walk).

I thought the Brind’Amour overrating was done when he retired, but I guess not.

We have had this exact discussion twice before. Tulsky was largely responsible for the pro side, not the amateur one. The things you like about Carolina were Tulsky. The last time I told you this, you then switched to liking the amateur side.

 

[Lord Defect]

The Child was a terrible sleeper. She made sure to hit every single sleep regression. BTW, I think the whole "sleep regression" concept is BS that people came up with to feel better about their kid not sleeping; divert the blame off the parents to the kid. Which is valid. It is the kid's fault. Go the f*** to sleep lol.

New Child on our end slept through the night as a newborn and has never stopped. Beefette has had to give up and hand her over to me for the night shift maybe five times in over a year? Six? Compared to every single night with The Child. We did nothing to cause this. We won the lottery the second time. Pure luck.

Night terrors are a joy, let me tell you.

 

[freakydallas13]

So you believe they should go out and sign/trade for a bunch of second tier skilled veterans so they can have talented depth?

Don't put words in other people's mouths.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well for starters, stop signing face punchers for four years to fill out your roster.

The very definition of quitting. Not even trying to max out talent.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

The very definition of quitting. Not even trying to max out talent.

but #culture.....

 

[bleachdrinker]

I keep saying we're a couple good lottery tickets away from me hiring you to run this damn place, I just haven't hit the big jackpot yet.

90% of gamblers quit before they hit it big