2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[deadhead]

One can disagree about how good of a player frost is or can be, or even how much rope he deserves. That’s not a problem to me.

But for anyone to say Frost’s development hasn’t been poor is insane to me. His ice time is routinely given to other skaters, they put him in positions where he’s not going to be effective (net front in powerplay for example), he’s given linemates that cannot capitalize on his skills. Hell, last year at this time he had played less games than he had been scratched for.

This coach clearly doesn’t value his game. If it wasn’t apparent last year it’s certainly my apparent now. Nothing is going to get better for Frost unless Torts is gone or he is with another organization.

I think Frost is what he is, and going to another team won't change that.
He's already played 245 NHL games, it's not like he was buried in the AHL like Richard.

He'll have stretches when he's effective, and people will get all excited, then he'll revert back to going MIA for long stretches. He's a 2C on a bad team, 3C on a good team.

This season he's obviously dinged or injured, he's skating worse than I've ever seen him.
Which is why I'd just shut him down for a couple weeks and get him healthy.

What would worry me is how well he's going to age.
He depends on speed and quickness to be effective - if he slows down as dings accumulate, he could fall off the proverbial cliff.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think Frost is what he is, and going to another team won't change that.
He's already played 245 NHL games, it's not like he was buried in the AHL like Richard.

He'll have stretches when he's effective, and people will get all excited, then he'll revert back to going MIA for long stretches. He's a 2C on a bad team, 3C on a good team.

This season he's obviously dinged or injured, he's skating worse than I've ever seen him.
Which is why I'd just shut him down for a couple weeks and get him healthy.

What would worry me is how well he's going to age.
He depends on speed and quickness to be effective - if he slows down as dings accumulate, he could fall off the proverbial cliff.

And a 5C under the Flyers. Excellent that you're recognizing their woeful evaluation abilities.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Doubt it, FA prices will go up with the cap.
But it'll make it easier to move Risto.

Yeah teams will be lining up to use the cap increase on Risto.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I think Frost is what he is, and going to another team won't change that.
He's already played 245 NHL games, it's not like he was buried in the AHL like Richard.

He'll have stretches when he's effective, and people will get all excited, then he'll revert back to going MIA for long stretches. He's a 2C on a bad team, 3C on a good team.

This season he's obviously dinged or injured, he's skating worse than I've ever seen him.
Which is why I'd just shut him down for a couple weeks and get him healthy.

What would worry me is how well he's going to age.
He depends on speed and quickness to be effective - if he slows down as dings accumulate, he could fall off the proverbial cliff.

That is because the Flyers ruined him and dozens of others who never went on to produce elsewhere. At some point yo need to hold the player accountable for his dismal play. It isnt all on the FLyers.

For all the Frost fans, Any insight why you think he has never asked for a trade to get out?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

And with the other guys getting healthy, he’ll be seen again at the end of the season.

 

[Hanover Fist]

Risto 600 games can be fixed but Frost at 245 is what he is.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That is because the Flyers ruined him and dozens of others who never went on to produce elsewhere. At some point yo need to hold the player accountable for his dismal play. It isnt all on the FLyers.

For all the Frost fans, Any insight why you think he has never asked for a trade to get out?

When damned near every player is regressing, it's hard to blame a single player.


When management handles and uses a player incorrectly for his whole career, that's also not the players fault.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

When damned near every player is regressing, it's hard to blame a single player.


When management handles and uses a player incorrectly for his whole career, that's also not the players fault.

It is a 2-way street. Both can be at fault.

Regressing from what? What players in particular you referring too?

 

[VladDrag]

That is because the Flyers ruined him and dozens of others who never went on to produce elsewhere. At some point yo need to hold the player accountable for his dismal play. It isnt all on the FLyers.

For all the Frost fans, Any insight why you think he has never asked for a trade to get out?

I actually agree with you that it’s primarily on a player to prove that they can provide positive impact while on ice (positive impact is defined differently by each team). To develop a player, it’s pretty simple in my mind. Give them ice time in scenarios that would be most likely to produce positive impacts based off of that players history. They’ve done well with Owen Tippett for example, and they tried with Noah Cates. They’re doing their best to develop Drysdale out right now as well.

They have not prioritized Frost, and there’s really no denying that at this stage. Even still, we have two full seasons worth of data and observations that show he’s a middle of the lineup center. There's really no disputing that. There’s also some indications that given the right line mates, you would see an increase in production and offensive effectiveness, making the team better. **this year has been a different story. He’s not been good. **

I think one of the reasons why Frost is such a hot topic, certainly the case for me, is that it’s a prime example of the team not placing value on skill. It’s not that they’re particularly bad at development, it’s that they’re bad at identifying positive impact.

 

[deadhead]

I actually agree with you that it’s primarily on a player to prove that they can provide positive impact while on ice (positive impact is defined differently by each team). To develop a player, it’s pretty simple in my mind. Give them ice time in scenarios that would be most likely to produce positive impacts based off of that players history. They’ve done well with Owen Tippett for example, and they tried with Noah Cates. They’re doing their best to develop Drysdale out right now as well.

They have not prioritized Frost, and there’s really no denying that at this stage. Even still, we have two full seasons worth of data and observations that show he’s a middle of the lineup center. There's really no disputing that. There’s also some indications that given the right line mates, you would see an increase in production and offensive effectiveness, making the team better. **this year has been a different story. He’s not been good. **

I think one of the reasons why Frost is such a hot topic, certainly the case for me, is that it’s a prime example of the team not placing value on skill. It’s not that they’re particularly bad at development, it’s that they’re bad at identifying positive impact.

I don't think it's a matter of not liking skill, TK under Torts has steadily increased his PT and high impact TOI.
Richard was encourage to be aggressive on offense when he was promoted.

Frost plays more deliberately and at times the windows close on him too quickly.
Brink is similar, and he's struggled with puck possession for that reason.

Michkov does as well, and he's still adjusting to smaller windows, but Michkov is also more talented in tight areas, he's very agile, great puck skills and hard to knock off the puck. Michkov can do things that mere mortal forwards can only wish they could do.

Notice they all look better on the PP, where there's more space and time, and you can wait for players to come open for passes.

I think what they want from both Frost and Brink is to play with more urgency 5x5, keep the skates and puck moving. Faster decision making before windows close.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It is a 2-way street. Both can be at fault.

Regressing from what? What players in particular you referring too?

Have you seen the team? Foerster, Farabee, Frost, Tippett, Zamula, have all regressed. Likewise Cates, Couturier, Poehling, Seeler, but I won't be as militant about them for various reasons

 

[freakydallas13]

I don't think Frost is poor development

Yes, we're well aware of that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes, we're well aware of that.

Supposedly the Flyers are very good at development and haven't done anything wrong in years, as evidenced by the impressive results.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

And with the other guys getting healthy, he’ll be seen again at the end of the season.

Zombie Ellis claims another victim

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

Do we even let Drysdale back in the lineup? Guy has one NHL tool and he's too stupid to even understand how to use it.

 

[BiggE]

About to be 5 straight seasons with no playoffs and one series win since 2012.

But how dare we question the Flyers organization’s ability to develop NHL talent?! They are the unquestioned masters at turning talent into mediocrity. Yay team.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Have you seen the team? Foerster, Farabee, Frost, Tippett, Zamula, have all regressed. Likewise Cates, Couturier, Poehling, Seeler, but I won't be as militant about them for various reasons

- Foerster is in his 2nd year in the NHL. Sophomore slump perhaps? Happens all across the league.
- Farabee coming off a career high in points season has struggled points wise because he has flat out missed numerous point blank chances. Thats not regression.
- Tippet many here say is not a good hockey player. So using that is the coach supposed to work miracles. That being said he has 9 points in 18 games. Little off last year's pace.
- Zamula maybe just isn't that good. He looks the same. No better no worse.
- Cates may have a little but he is another player many have said is nothing but a 4th line winger so what do you expect?

All one can do is laugh at mentioning Couturier as regressing and blaming the Flyers. Flyers resurrected Seeler's career. Same with RP to an extent.

I actually agree with you that it’s primarily on a player to prove that they can provide positive impact while on ice (positive impact is defined differently by each team). To develop a player, it’s pretty simple in my mind. Give them ice time in scenarios that would be most likely to produce positive impacts based off of that players history. They’ve done well with Owen Tippett for example, and they tried with Noah Cates. They’re doing their best to develop Drysdale out right now as well.

They have not prioritized Frost, and there’s really no denying that at this stage. Even still, we have two full seasons worth of data and observations that show he’s a middle of the lineup center. There's really no disputing that. There’s also some indications that given the right line mates, you would see an increase in production and offensive effectiveness, making the team better. **this year has been a different story. He’s not been good. **

I think one of the reasons why Frost is such a hot topic, certainly the case for me, is that it’s a prime example of the team not placing value on skill. It’s not that they’re particularly bad at development, it’s that they’re bad at identifying positive impact.

No argument here.

 

[BiggE]

Why do I question the Flyers ability to develop players?

Couturier was pegged as a defense first player and given no pp time for years despite the fact that he was seen as potentially the first pick overall in his draft year before he contracted mono. By the time they started to realize there was more to his game than checking, he had 5 years of hard wear and tear on his tires.

Sanheim, clearly a skilled player, has rarely been given an extended look on the pp. Hell, for years the organization favored the less talented Provorov and even Robert Hagg over TS.

They continually play Laughton at center when his skill set is much better utilized on the wing.

Time and time again, they put skilled players on lines with grinders and then wonder why those players don’t produce.

They see no value in a player like Ghost but fawn over a prospect like Hunter McDonald.

They pass over a Dman with 1D potential because they feel having York, Drysdale and Andrae doesn’t allow them to draft another sub 6’1 D, even though Drysdale has done squat, Andrae is still a wildcard and there is no guarantee that York, or any of the three, will even be here by the time a guy like Buium would be coming into his prime.

They keep Luchanko on the roster simply to make themselves feel smart and to try and justify the selection. The kid was nowhere near ready to play in the NHL.

There’s more, much more, but I think the point has been made.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

About to be 5 straight seasons with no playoffs and one series win since 2012.

But how dare we question the Flyers organization’s ability to develop NHL talent?! They are the unquestioned masters at turning talent into mediocrity. Yay team.

I am getting concerned we will be drafting again in the 10-15 range next year, why can' this team just go on a 20 game losing streak and get the top 5 player they desperately need...perpetual mediocrity is just sickening at this point.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

I am getting concerned we will be drafting again in the 10-15 range next year, why can' this team just go on a 20 game losing streak and get the top 5 player they desperately need...perpetual mediocrity is just sickening at this point.

Careful what you wish for. The Flyers are a TK or Sanheim injury away from this realization. They are just good enough to be mediocre

 

[deadhead]

There is no "they." That's conspiracy theory type talk. "Those people."

Couts started out as an 18 year old on a deep team, then he was behind Giroux as the 1C, and competed with Schenn as the 2C. Given the lack of forward depth after 2012, G got the best forwards and Couts and Schenn competed for the "scrubs".
2014: Voracek and Simmonds on the 1st line, Read, Raffl, Umberger, Vinnie the next forwards.
2015: replace Umberger and Vinnie with Gagner and VdV
It was moving G to LW that allowed C to center a scoring line, not some plot against him.

AV was the one who didn't like Ghost, partially due to his style of play, but also b/c he needed time to adjust to his loss of speed after having both knees scoped.

Sanheim played on PP2 his first two full seasons, behind Ghost.
Ghost, Gustaffson and Provorov played ahead of him in 2020-21.
York and Yandle in 2021-22, TDA & York in 2022-23, Drysdale & York last season, but Sanheim still averaged 1:31.

Laughton plays center b/c of lack of centers, last year it was Laughton or Cates. This year Laughton is better than Frost or Cates so far.

We'll see if they made the right move between Jett and Buium. Both were areas of need, so they must have really liked Jett. He does fit what they want. They kept Luchanko on the roster to reward him for coming to camp prepared and give him a taste of the NHL. I doubt they were "trying to justify the selection," things this board obsesses over are probably ignored by most fans.

The real problem has been lack of talent depth (problem since 2012) due to Hextall's bad drafting in 2017 and 2018 and CF trading away too many first and second rd picks.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

There is no "they." That's conspiracy theory type talk. "Those people."

Couts started out as an 18 year old on a deep team, then he was behind Giroux as the 1C, and competed with Schenn as the 2C. Given the lack of forward depth after 2012, G got the best forwards and Couts and Schenn competed for the "scrubs".
2014: Voracek and Simmonds on the 1st line, Read, Raffl, Umberger, Vinnie the next forwards.
2015: replace Umberger and Vinnie with Gagner and VdV
It was moving G to LW that allowed C to center a scoring line, not some plot against him.

AV was the one who didn't like Ghost, partially due to his style of play, but also b/c he needed time to adjust to his loss of speed after having both knees scoped.

Sanheim played on PP2 his first two full seasons, behind Ghost.
Ghost, Gustaffson and Provorov played ahead of him in 2020-21.
York and Yandle in 2021-22, TDA & York in 2022-23, Drysdale & York last season, but Sanheim still averaged 1:31.

Laughton plays center b/c of lack of centers, last year it was Laughton or Cates. This year Laughton is better than Frost or Cates so far.

We'll see if they made the right move between Jett and Buium. Both were areas of need, so they must have really liked Jett. He does fit what they want. They kept Luchanko on the roster to reward him for coming to camp prepared and give him a taste of the NHL. I doubt they were "trying to justify the selection," things this board obsesses over are probably ignored by most fans.

The real problem has been lack of talent depth (problem since 2012) due to Hextall's bad drafting in 2017 and 2018 and CF trading away too many first and second rd picks.

Is Paul Holmgren still seen around the organization?

Is Bob Clarke still seen around the organization?

Are *insert long list of names here* still employed by the organization?

 

[deadhead]

Is Paul Holmgren still seen around the organization?

Is Bob Clarke still seen around the organization?

Are *insert names here* still employed by the organization?

Haven't heard hide or hair from either of them.
Think they spend most of their time golfing in Florida.
Hilferty brings out their corpses twice a year now.

 

[BillDineen]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1858268015059509562

 

[FLYguy3911]

Sanheim did not play ANY special teams under Dave Hakstol in two years so that is a lie. He got special teams work immediately after Hakstol got fired, went on a 50 point pace only to come back the next year under AV and not get PP time.