2024-25 Roster…too soon?

[TLEH]

You could argue Farabee is what he is though. Maybe you don't think that's what he is, but chances are, it is. He had his best season to date this year, and it was still underwhelming. And if he does get better, it will be on the back of Bedard, so how much would it be him, and how much would it be Bedard. And then you are paying for that when we are actually ready to compete.

Every single player that plays with Bedard will have inflated stats, no matter how you acquire them. I don't think that should prevent you from acquiring a player. Kurashev is now a 50 point player with Bedard. We still have the same issue there.

 

[Hawkaholic]

I mean I guess you could but I wouldn't buy that a players 23/24 year old season is the best he can be.

Konecny for example. Tage Thompson.

Konecknys best season was when he was 23 (61pts in 66GP). But those are more the outliers than the norm. Typically what a forward is at 24 is what he will be.

Every single player that plays with Bedard will have inflated stats, no matter how you acquire them. I don't think that should prevent you from acquiring a player. Kurashev is now a 50 point player with Bedard. We still have the same issue there.

This is true, but Im not willing to pay those players the money they will ask for. No way in hell am I paying Kurashev like a 60-70pt player when his contract expires.

So in the end, Farabee becomes a 70pt player playing with Bedard, are you paying him 8+mil? I'm not, he'd be a UFA, and then he is gone and we paid a 1st for someone who won't be here in 4+ years.

 

[HawksDub89]

Or we can keep the pick and and get a winger for quite literally free.

What is wrong with you people? Why are we so desperate to trade away picks during a rebuild? The roster is already pretty full next year, it’s so unnecessary.

It’s quite literally not free…

Pretty stupid logic to assume a late 1st will for sure be a top 6 forward.

Go look at previous drafts and you’ll find tons of 3rd/4th liners and guys that hardly played NHL games picked in that range.

 

[ChiHawks10]

It will take 5 years to be in contention, so what's the point of trading top assets for 50pt players, right now? You can sign the 28-30 year olds for more money, for free, (cap doesn't matter) and fill that hole until you need to address it when the team gets better, and still draft the top players in the draft the next 2 years. You still have those assets in 3+ years, you can trade them for that type of talent then, when they are closer to being legit.

I think the Hawks focus on guys who aren't getting long term deals, and give them slightly more to play on a losing team, or take swings on lower line talent in free agency. Maybe trade a 2nd for a younger player in need of a scenery change, but don't see them trading top assets for 24/25 year old 50 pt players.

They can't ice the same product as they did this past season. It was awful. They need to improve. That said, I think they will. I think they'll add some solid FAs, and there's probably a couple guys making a permanent jump, along with Nazar.

 

[Chuck Testa]

I don't care to watch guys like Raddysh, Reese Johnson, Tinordi, or any of the other useless idiots any more.

We're talking about guys who are AHL level at best. Tired of the Hawks being a layup for other teams in the league.

Bring in a coach who will have the team competing hard night in night out.

 

[TheFridge]

I don't care to watch guys like Raddysh, Reese Johnson, Tinordi, or any of the other useless idiots any more.

We're talking about guys who are AHL level at best. Tired of the Hawks being a layup for other teams in the league.

Bring in a coach who will have the team competing hard night in night out.

You can compete as hard as you like but when the talent isn't there, there's nothing any coach can do. Richardson has his faults no doubt but it's hard to evaluate him when the roster is this bad *and* it's made that much worse by injuries. Defensively, Tinordi, Megna and Zaitsev are all non-NHL Dmen. Korchinski shouldn't have been in the league this year. The Hawks only had 2 legitimate NHL Dmen most of the year.

 

[TLEH]

I’m not even saying it has to be Farabee. I’m just saying that we have picked 5 first rounders already. We’ll have two more this year and next. Tons of second round picks. I don’t think we have to make all those picks and I’ll move one for a good player that fits the timeline and I don’t think that’s accelerating anything.

 

[Hawkaholic]

They can't ice the same product as they did this past season. It was awful. They need to improve. That said, I think they will. I think they'll add some solid FAs, and there's probably a couple guys making a permanent jump, along with Nazar.

I agree. But I just think they do it through free agency and body for body trades as opposed to trading 1sts for 2nd and 3rd line players.

I’m not even saying it has to be Farabee. I’m just saying that we have picked 5 first rounders already. We’ll have two more this year and next. Tons of second round picks. I don’t think we have to make all those picks and I’ll move one for a good player that fits the timeline and I don’t think that’s accelerating anything.

Even if you make the picks, they are still assets. You can still trade those picks in the future to sweeten a deal. It's not like once the picks are made they are Hawk property forever.

 

[hockeydoug]

You can acquire players without spending 1st round picks to do so..

Agreed, they don't have to trade them but it shouldn't be ruled out either.

Late firsts are very overrated and seldom outperform the players and cap implications of the player they were acquired for. For example, there should be no reason the Toronto first should be in the way of a 4 or 5 year top 6 forward that has attributes useful to developing the players that matter. They have extra picks plenty of high picks.

That's literally how the Hawks dynasty was built.

No it wasn't. This is false. They tried to build a core that imploded...then fumbled into Staal bumping Toews down and a ping pong ball bounce for Kane.

Khabibulin was brought in to be a core player. Havlat was traded for to be a core player. Barker was a bluechip prospect and there was alot of promise with Ruttu. Keith was still projecting below Seabrook. Toews wasn't dressed and Kane wasn't even a thought yet...but they weren't even supposed to be there because Tallon wasn't tanking.

There's no parallel, even the teardown was under a vastly different rule set against a very different league.

 

[hockeydoug]

No, that's exactly how you do it. Gotta get the core established first before bringing in veteran help. This is a long-term rebuild. This is year 1, 22-23 was year 0. Still got 3-4 years to go.

Buffalo tried that. So did Toronto. Edmonton built their core several times. So did Yzerman in Detroit...even though he brought in Callahan, Boyle, Fillpulla, Stralman, etc. before his TB core had done anything.

Meanwhile...in Dallas...

You still have to play NHL hockey with NHL players even as you suck trying to get better. Pitt was about the only real straight line from perennial tanking to winning for a long time, but they had vets in there right away before they knew what the core was going to do.

I agree. But I just think they do it through free agency and body for body trades as opposed to trading 1sts for 2nd and 3rd line players.

Most late firsts and 2nd rounders that do well are...3rd line players.


The same 3rd line players stay for a bit and help develop the players that matter by playing real NHL hockey or...get traded at deadlines for...late firsts and 2nd rounders. If they leave, usually the team is playing better hockey because they were there.

 

[kmwtrucks]

looks like P kane just posted on his twitter a sort of good by to Detroit. 3-4 year deal at $5-6mil? if he tells DET he does not want to resign I wonder if you could see DET trading his rights to Chicago? for a late pick or mid prospect. my Guess is if chcago is a option for both him and KD it could happen pretty quick. IE Im sure he does not want to move back to CHI to just move again in july or AUG

 

[EmeticDonut]

looks like P kane just posted on his twitter a sort of good by to Detroit. 3-4 year deal at $5-6mil? if he tells DET he does not want to resign I wonder if you could see DET trading his rights to Chicago? for a late pick or mid prospect. my Guess is if chcago is a option for both him and KD it could happen pretty quick. IE Im sure he does not want to move back to CHI to just move again in july or AUG

Kane is UFA, he can sign with whoever. Doubtful he'll be a Hawk.

 

[WarriorofTime]

No it wasn't. This is false. They tried to build a core that imploded...then fumbled into Staal bumping Toews down and a ping pong ball bounce for Kane.

Khabibulin was brought in to be a core player. Havlat was traded for to be a core player. Barker was a bluechip prospect and there was alot of promise with Ruttu. Keith was still projecting below Seabrook. Toews wasn't dressed and Kane wasn't even a thought yet...but they weren't even supposed to be there because Tallon wasn't tanking.

There's no parallel, even the teardown was under a vastly different rule set against a very different league.

Toews - draft pick
Kane - draft pick
Hossa - expensive free agent signing after they made conference finals
Sharp - minor deal at the time involving a prospect only a couple years younger at the end of his waiver-exempt years for a 4th line center they thought could be better with opportunity
Byfuglien - draft pick
Versteeg - prospect for prospect swap, bit of a reverse Sharp deal in terms of where the traded players were in their timelines
Ladd - traded as a young roster player for a more established player
Bolland - draft pick
Brouwer - draft pick
Madden - minor free agent depth signing after they made conference finals
Kopecky - minor free agent depth signing after they made conference finals
Fraser - traded while a WHL prospect as part of a package for established player
Eager - traded in minor swap of depth players for an older depth player
Burish - draft pick
Bickell - draft pick

Keith - draft pick
Seabrook - draft pick
Campbell - expensive free agent signing after missing postseason by three points
Hjalmarsson - draft pick
Sopel - minor free agent signing during training camp prior to season where they missed postseason, modest raise extension
Hendry - UDFA depth guy
Boynton - depth deadline trade for "future considerations" for a player that had cleared waivers and was initially assigned to AHL

Niemi - Euro Undrafted Partially Established (25 year old) Free Agent
Huet - overpaid free agent signing after missing postseason by three points
Crawford - draft pick

That's the team the Hawks won the Cup with. Leave your revisionist stories about how the Hawks mini-dynasty was built off the backs of Nikolai Khabibulin, Martin Havlat and Adrian Aucoin elsewhere. The reason the Hawks made a push in 2007-08 to encourage more aggressive behavior is that they started overflowing with draft picks/acquired prospects or "prospect-ish" players were establishing themselves and driving the team up organically.

 

[Hawkaholic]

No it wasn't. This is false. They tried to build a core that imploded...then fumbled into Staal bumping Toews down and a ping pong ball bounce for Kane.

Khabibulin was brought in to be a core player. Havlat was traded for to be a core player. Barker was a bluechip prospect and there was alot of promise with Ruttu. Keith was still projecting below Seabrook. Toews wasn't dressed and Kane wasn't even a thought yet...but they weren't even supposed to be there because Tallon wasn't tanking.

There's no parallel, even the teardown was under a vastly different rule set against a very different league.

LOL, wut?
It doesn't matter how they got there, but the core of the team was all draft picks, outside of Hossa and Sharp.

Keith, Seabrook, Hammer, Bolland, Buff were all drafted players. They sucked a lot, got Toews and Kane, and then once they realized they were going to be really good, signed Campbell, Huet, then Hossa. They didn't go and trade 1sts for vets at any point like you are suggesting, until they were a legit playoff team. They brought in UFAs, or made sly player for player trades.

Most late firsts and 2nd rounders that do well are...3rd line players.


The same 3rd line players stay for a bit and help develop the players that matter by playing real NHL hockey or...get traded at deadlines for...late firsts and 2nd rounders. If they leave, usually the team is playing better hockey because they were there.

And?
I have no problem bringing in vets, I think I have made that clear. Where we differ is, you and others want to pay 1st round picks for these vets, the same ones you can get for free in Free Agency, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[CallMeShaft]

Kane is UFA, he can sign with whoever. Doubtful he'll be a Hawk.

I'd still take the field over Chicago, but I think we've actually got a good shot at getting him back, provided Davidson wants that.

First, PK Senior (Kaner's dad) doesn't do airplanes. Any game he goes to, he drives to. So unless Kaner wants to not have his old man show up to home games, he won't sign with a team from the western conference, aside from the Hawks, who his dad knows the route between here to Buffalo by heart by know.

Speaking of family, isn't Kaner's GF/significant other from the area? Keeping her happy and making it easy for her parents to babysit PK lll has it's own set of benefits.

Then you've got all the comments he's made over the last year or so. Here is a comment he made about returing to the Hawks after his return to the UC via The Atheltic:

“I guess you never want to say never, but it seems like they’re kind of content going in a different direction,” he said after the game. “It is what it is. Guess we’ll see how everything plays out.”

There's also been a number of former Hawks who have come back to the team, but none are more prevalent than Kaner's old buddy (and fellow Patrick) Sharpie, who signed as a free agent on a Hawks team that didn't make the playoffs. Sharp didn't admittedly know what that season would be like for the Hawks, but he also didn't seem to have regrets about going out without any playoffs either; he was happy just to be back home.

Now all of this is a moot point anyways depending on what Davidson wants. What we do know is the free agency class this year sucks and Hawks probably won't be spending over $10m per to bring Reinhart here, nor is there reason for Stamkos to pick here of all the possible teams. If Davidson truly wants to start turning things around, bringing back a superstar caliber of player (even if past their prime), one who might actually want to be here and won't be looking at a 5 plus year term, might make logistical sense.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

I don't think management wants Kane back. I'd be happy to be wrong but that's how it feels to me.

 

[WarriorofTime]

LOL, wut?
It doesn't matter how they got there, but the core of the team was all draft picks, outside of Hossa and Sharp.

Keith, Seabrook, Hammer, Bolland, Buff were all drafted players. They sucked a lot, got Toews and Kane, and then once they realized they were going to be really good, signed Campbell, Huet, then Hossa. They didn't go and trade 1sts for vets at any point like you are suggesting, until they were a legit playoff team. They brought in UFAs, or made sly player for player trades.

But don't you understand, back then, they had VETERANS on team in the years they sucked. Like Seth Jones, Nick Foligno, Tyler Johnson, Taylor Hall, Andreas Athanasiou, Jason Dickinson.. wait what?

 

[hockeydoug]

Toews - draft pick
Kane - draft pick
Hossa - expensive free agent signing after they made conference finals
Sharp - minor deal at the time involving a prospect only a couple years younger at the end of his waiver-exempt years for a 4th line center they thought could be better with opportunity
Byfuglien - draft pick
Versteeg - prospect for prospect swap, bit of a reverse Sharp deal in terms of where the traded players were in their timelines
Ladd - traded as a young roster player for a more established player
Bolland - draft pick
Brouwer - draft pick
Madden - minor free agent depth signing after they made conference finals
Kopecky - minor free agent depth signing after they made conference finals
Fraser - traded while a WHL prospect as part of a package for established player
Eager - traded in minor swap of depth players for an older depth player
Burish - draft pick
Bickell - draft pick

Keith - draft pick
Seabrook - draft pick
Campbell - expensive free agent signing after missing postseason by three points
Hjalmarsson - draft pick
Sopel - minor free agent signing during training camp prior to season where they missed postseason, modest raise extension
Hendry - UDFA depth guy
Boynton - depth deadline trade for "future considerations" for a player that had cleared waivers and was initially assigned to AHL

Niemi - Euro Undrafted Partially Established (25 year old) Free Agent
Huet - overpaid free agent signing after missing postseason by three points
Crawford - draft pick

That's the team the Hawks won the Cup with. Leave your revisionist stories about how the Hawks mini-dynasty was built off the backs of Nikolai Khabibulin, Martin Havlat and Adrian Aucoin elsewhere. The reason the Hawks made a push in 2007-08 to encourage more aggressive behavior is that they started overflowing with draft picks/acquired prospects or "prospect-ish" players were establishing themselves and driving the team up organically.

This was about core before vets. Arguing against what wasn't said.

Several vets were brought in long before the long term winning core was established.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I don't think management wants Kane back. I'd be happy to be wrong but that's how it feels to me.

I can see it either way to be honest.

They absolutely wanted to move on from Kane when they did to help the tank. Now that they are looking at turning a corner, however slowly, it's hard to say what Kyle wants.

I'm sure Kyle would prefer a 2-way forward to pair with Bedard. Connor isn't big, or defensively responsible, and neither is a lot of the forward prospects. Adding Kane would certainly not help that. But Hossa isn't available. Neither is Mark Stone. Sam Reinhart is, but he's about to get PAID. Doubt Stamkos picks the Hawks. Just a really crappy free agency class this year.

So if management wants to improve the forward group, it's probably going to have to be Kane, a 3rd liner, or trading away assets for guys.

Spoiler

My brain is telling me to prepare for more Donatos

 

[kmwtrucks]

Kane is UFA, he can sign with whoever. Doubtful he'll be a Hawk.

not for 67 days he cant. that is why CHI would have to trade for his rights to sign him now. I think the Major portion of tear down is done and now that we want to start moving forward it might make sense for both. Kane loves Chicago (if I had to guess would like to retire a Blackhawk along with holding the Blackhawks scoring record) I think at the time it made sense to move on. right now it might make sense to reunite on 3-4 year deal. you forgot that we were probably offered a 1st for him but Kane was not ready to move on and NY took tarsenko instead. he has a young family. do you think he really wants to move around 2-3 more times over the next 4-5 years. the fact that KD would like to improve would at least lead me to believe he would be a option.

 

[Hawkaholic]

This was about core before vets. Arguing against what wasn't said.

Several vets were brought in long before the long term winning core was established.

The argument is spending 1st round picks to bring in 25 year old "vets".

The Hawks never traded their 1st round picks before the T&K years, they tanked, had vets they got for cheap or signed for free, and built the majority of their core through the draft.

 

[kmwtrucks]

I can see it either way to be honest.

They absolutely wanted to move on from Kane when they did to help the tank. Now that they are looking at turning a corner, however slowly, it's hard to say what Kyle wants.

I'm sure Kyle would prefer a 2-way forward to pair with Bedard. Connor isn't big, or defensively responsible, and neither is a lot of the forward prospects. Adding Kane would certainly not help that. But Hossa isn't available. Neither is Mark Stone. Sam Reinhart is, but he's about to get PAID. Doubt Stamkos picks the Hawks. Just a really crappy free agency class this year.

So if management wants to improve the forward group, it's probably going to have to be Kane, a 3rd liner, or trading away assets for guys.

Spoiler

My brain is telling me to prepare for more Donatos

we can improve our top 9 with kane and not put him on bedards line. I do not think they would bring him back to pair with bedard. they would bring him back to improve another line have another line driver and take pressure off the bedard line. and HELP the #1PP

 

[CallMeShaft]

we can improve our top 9 with kane and not put him on bedards line. I do not think they would bring him back to pair with bedard. they would bring him back to improve another line have another line driver and take pressure off the bedard line. and HELP the #1PP

If they brought him back, they'd certainly get a long look together. See if this can be a Panarin/Kane, DeBrincat/Kane sorta combo. Could work really well depending on how that hip of Kaner's is doing.

But worst case, yeah, they'd just get top unit PP time together. Which would still be a huge improvement for Bedard.

 

[BHawk21]

Kane was moved to tank and he was going to undergo a hip surgery that nobody has come back from and excelled. They are now on the way back up after this draft.

Kane wants some term, can move back home, and break records.

The Hawks can sell more games and create more offense. Seems like it fits. Just depends on if a contender would give him term or if Detroit will give him term.

 

[CallMeShaft]

Can you imagine how big Kaner coming back to the team would be for marketing? 88 helping mentor 98? Kane back for another Winter Classic? Those assholes at Fanatics would only have to print off Kane and Bedard Winter Classic jerseys and they would sell like hot cakes. Ticket sales would inch even closer back to regularly selling out. National TV ratings would be huge, so would local ratings as long as that new Reinsdorf network (which Hawks are rumored to be moving to) is readily available in TV packages.

Faulkner and Danny won't force Kyle to sign any player, but they are absolutely crossing their fingers it happens.