2024-25: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc.

[BigToe]

Jett got a secondary on their only goal.

 

[deadhead]

I find it amazing that Rizzo isn't on the team. We all have our guys, and everyone knows I've been paid attention to Rizzo quite a bit last year....But he was electric on one of the best college teams last year, and deserves a real chance to show what he's got.

Maybe he was injured, but he showed nothing in camp.

A 23 year old player with 3 years of college under his belt should flash something, especially in the early exhibition games when you're going against AHL types.

The fact that he has yet to dress after 8 games suggests some sort of physical issue.

 

[VladDrag]

Maybe he was injured, but he showed nothing in camp.

A 23 year old player with 3 years of college under his belt should flash something, especially in the early exhibition games when you're going against AHL types.

The fact that he has yet to dress after 8 games suggests some sort of physical issue.

It was his first skating since his high ankle sprain at the end of last season— he had not skated for the last few weeks of the season, and played wing in a much reduced role in the NCAA Final.

I suspect there’s an injury as well.

 

[dats81]

Rizzo probably refused to block shots with his face and that's why he is scratched.
Jokes aside, it is what it is... Lappy doesn't know how to use pure offensive players - he loves his try hard, bread and butter type of grinders because they think alike.

 

[deadhead]

He never watched a minute of Grans in his life when he made that comment. He couldn't differentiate Helge Grans from Ariana Grande. This happens litrilllly every time he debates prospects. The guys who watch these players are the ones who get lectured.

I trust people like Wheeler and Appleyard.
The people on this board I read, but I take into account their prejudices (people here would like to build a high scoring finesse team that can't play defense).

 

[freakydallas13]

(people here would like to build a high scoring finesse team that can't play defense).

Strawman.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

but I take into account their prejudices (people here would like to build a high scoring finesse team that can't play defense).

Ok, so one thing I don't understand with this is how you reconcile how excited some of us get about physical football and basketball players when they're good. I just spent the better part of 2 years talking about how much I wanted guys like Cooper DeJean and Jared Verse on the Eagles. Those are downright violent football players.

As always, the problem is not with building a physical team. It's when physicality is higher in the decision tree than general aptitude.

 

[VladDrag]

I trust people like Wheeler and Appleyard.
The people on this board I read, but I take into account their prejudices (people here would like to build a high scoring finesse team that can't play defense).

Everyone has prejudices, Wheeler and Appleyard included. So do you.

 

[deadhead]

Ok, so one thing I don't understand with this is how you reconcile how excited some of us get with about physical football and basketball players when they're good. I just spent the better part of 2 years talking about how much I wanted guys like Cooper DeJean and Jared Verse on the Eagles. Those are downright violent football players.

As always, the problem is not with building a physical team. It's when physicality is higher in the decision tree than general aptitude.

They haven't drafted those kinds of players.
In fact going through drafts under Flahr, then Briere/Flahr, if anything they've been too small.

2019: Attard #72
2020: Foerster #23
2021: none
2022: Gauthier #5, Kaplan #69, McDonald #165
2023: Southeran #135, Mann #199
2024: Berglund #51, Gill #59, Powell #148, Moline #205
Of this group, only Kaplan, McDonald, Southeran, Mann and Powell would be considered "physical" picks.
The other big players were skilled players who happened to be big.

Hathaway is a physical player, but he's also in the top 1/3 of the NHL in terms of speed.
Seeler is physical, but also the top shot blocker in the NHL, has average speed and is a reliable veteran defenseman.

They're certainly not emphasizing size.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Maybe he was injured, but he showed nothing in camp.

A 23 year old player with 3 years of college under his belt should flash something, especially in the early exhibition games when you're going against AHL types.

The fact that he has yet to dress after 8 games suggests some sort of physical issue.

Camp means nothing. Actual games do.


If the Flyers are actually basing their choices on practice performance and not game performance (and it sure seems they do!) then it is one of the many, many reasons they remain bad forever.

 

[deadhead]

Everyone has prejudices, Wheeler and Appleyard included. So do you.

Sure. I'm skeptical of undersized offense first players who won't work on defense.
I value hockey IQ and two way play over pure offense.
I value work ethic with regards to increasing the odds of achieving a player's upside.
I like fast physical players for the bottom six.
I like big D-men with an edge who are mobile enough not to get caught up ice and can make that first pass out of the D-zone.

Everyone loves a Michkov, but them are rare commodities.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

They haven't drafted those kinds of players.
In fact going through drafts under Flahr, then Briere/Flahr, if anything they've been too small.

2019: Attard #72
2020: Foerster #23
2021: none
2022: Gauthier #5, Kaplan #69, McDonald #165
2023: Southeran #135, Mann #199
2024: Berglund #51, Gill #59, Powell #148, Moline #205
Of this group, only Kaplan, McDonald, Southeran, Mann and Powell would be considered "physical" picks.
The other big players were skilled players who happened to be big.

Hathaway is a physical player, but he's also in the top 1/3 of the NHL in terms of speed.
Seeler is physical, but also the top shot blocker in the NHL, has average speed and is a reliable veteran defenseman.

They're certainly not emphasizing size.

I'm not talking about the Flyers. This is about how we discuss related topics.

The point here is that wanting them to make specific draft choices or get Zellwegger instead of Drysdale is a player evaluation before style. Or at least it should be if it's done right. Sometimes that means smaller guys, but again it's about the player and not building a small finesse team. The discussion as usually presented here is really BPA vs need, not what kind of team you want.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sure. I'm skeptical of undersized offense first players who won't work on defense.
I value hockey IQ and two way play over pure offense.

These are the players that you slam the hardest because the team can't identify or handle them and you have to defend them.

I value work ethic with regards to increasing the odds of achieving a player's upside.
I like fast physical players for the bottom six.
I like big D-men with an edge who are mobile enough not to get caught up ice and can make that first pass out of the D-zone.

Everyone loves a Michkov, but them are rare commodities.

You really ought to be slamming the shit out of management for building a team nothing like what you prefer, then. Instead of defending everything, much of which goes against your stated ideals. Why don't you?

 

[deadhead]

These are the players that you slam the hardest because the team can't identify or handle them and you have to defend them.



You really ought to be slamming the shit out of management for building a team nothing like what you prefer, then. Instead of defending everything, much of which goes against your stated ideals. Why don't you?

Why bother when we have you on the board?

 

[Ironmanrulez]

I find it amazing that Rizzo isn't on the team. We all have our guys, and everyone knows I've been paid attention to Rizzo quite a bit last year....But he was electric on one of the best college teams last year, and deserves a real chance to show what he's got.

Not a torts guy you know

 

[VladDrag]

Sure. I'm skeptical of undersized offense first players who won't work on defense.
I value hockey IQ and two way play over pure offense.
I value work ethic with regards to increasing the odds of achieving a player's upside.
I like fast physical players for the bottom six.
I like big D-men with an edge who are mobile enough not to get caught up ice and can make that first pass out of the D-zone.

Everyone loves a Michkov, but them are rare commodities.

Dude, I would love at team full of 6'4" giants who can play effectively. Size can be a real advantage -- there's no denying that. But sometimes it means you'd rather have a Hagg, DeLo, Laughton, EJ, type player -- players who absolutely hurt your team, instead of a player like Lycksell who may or may not hurt you long term. Player evaluation is not binary, and you're not right just because you think you are, just like I'm not right just because I think I am.

 

[deadhead]

Dude, I would love at team full of 6'4" giants who can play effectively. Size can be a real advantage -- there's no denying that. But sometimes it means you'd rather have a Hagg, DeLo, Laughton, EJ, type player -- players who absolutely hurt your team, instead of a player like Lycksell who may or may not hurt you long term. Player evaluation is not binary, and you're not right just because you think you are, just like I'm not right just because I think I am.

Balance and role.

I love McDonald in the 6th rd, big mobile D-man, all he has to do is defend, make exit passes, don't get caught out of position. Take him in the 2nd and it's a reach. Same reason I hope Sotheran can get past his heart condition.

Laughton was an offense first pick, he's actually a solid LW but isn't good enough on defense for center given his middle of the road offense. A reach at #20, but fine end of 1st/early 2nd.

I would have been fine with Buium, so far, from what I've seen, I'm fine with Luchanko. Both premium positions.

I'm happy with York b/c he continues to improve, a #2 D-man is valuable.
Caufield is a very good goal scorer, but a role player, not a core player, kind you add when you're already competitive and want to add some offensive punch you can shelter.

Starting to think we underestimate TK, he's the kind of "small" player I love, gritty, high motor, imagine his scoring the last few years with a 1C. Wish he was more responsible defensively, but not for lack of trying, just gets too aggressive at times. That contract is a risk, but he's a legitimate 1st line forward, they're expensive to sign and hard to draft.

Risto has really improved, CF was right to target him, wrong to overpay. These are the guys you pick up cheap and hope you can coach up. You don't pay for what a player could become, b/c the odds are usually against them turning it around.

 

[VladDrag]

I love McDonald in the 6th rd, big mobile D-man, all he has to do is defend, make exit passes, don't get caught out of position. Take him in the 2nd and it's a reach. Same reason I hope Sotheran can get past his heart condition.

I don't agree that's all he has to do -- being classically good in your own end doesn't mean that you are going to have positive defensive impacts.

I use this example because it's particularly poignant here. Frost isn't the best in-zone defensive player. He's missed a few marks here and there and the puck ends up in his own goal. We've all seen that -- no one should disagree with that. But somehow Frost has been a plus defensive player, going on his third season in a row --it's no a coincidence. It's because he actively plays the game in a way that limits the opposition to get sufficiently established in the zone. That makes him a good defensive player.

Laughton was an offense first pick, he's actually a solid LW but isn't good enough on defense for center given his middle of the road offense. A reach at #20, but fine end of 1st/early 2nd.

My recollection may be hazy, but I don't ever recall him being an offense-first pick. I even remember him playing in the WJC on the 3rd line as the captain and was there to provide defense -- the talking points at the time were that would be his role in the NHL. I don't have a problem with Laughton, pre 2022. Last year, he was one of the worst regular forwards in the league, and so far, is projecting the same way this year.

Starting to think we underestimate TK, he's the kind of "small" player I love, gritty, high motor, imagine his scoring the last few years with a 1C. Wish he was more responsible defensively, but not for lack of trying, just gets too aggressive at times. That contract is a risk, but he's a legitimate 1st line forward, they're expensive to sign and hard to draft.

If anything, I've overestimated him to be honest lol. I'm not saying that just to be an divisive, either. I've called him a 90-point player with the right center. I also don't think you're entire team needs be 'good' defensively. He more than makes up for it.

Risto has really improved, CF was right to target him, wrong to overpay. These are the guys you pick up cheap and hope you can coach up. You don't pay for what a player could become, b/c the odds are usually against them turning it around.

Agreed. Risto looks better. They did a great job with him, but gave up too much for him. Then doubled down and payed him too much for too long.

 

[FLYguy3911]

My recollection may be hazy, but I don't ever recall him being an offense-first pick. I even remember him playing in the WJC on the 3rd line as the captain and was there to provide defense -- the talking points at the time were that would be his role in the NHL. I don't have a problem with Laughton, pre 2022. Last year, he was one of the worst regular forwards in the league, and so far, is projecting the same way this year.

He wasn’t. Much of his draft hype was built on “shutting down” Filip Forsberg at the Hlinka tournament the summer prior to his draft year. He was pretty fast at the time and had a decent shot but the rest of his offensive game was pretty crude.

 

[deadhead]

My recollection may be hazy, but I don't ever recall him being an offense-first pick. I even remember him playing in the WJC on the 3rd line as the captain and was there to provide defense -- the talking points at the time were that would be his role in the NHL. I don't have a problem with Laughton, pre 2022. Last year, he was one of the worst regular forwards in the league, and so far, is projecting the same way this year.

Laughton started at age 21, put up 21 ES points, then spent 22 in the AHL b/c his defense was so bad.
At his best between 24-28.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Laughton started at age 21, put up 21 ES points, then spent 22 in the AHL b/c his defense was so bad.
At his best between 24-28.

His draft profile was that of a Checking Line Center who may be able to score a bit due to effort. In no way was he an offense first pick, which is what you said.

 

[deadhead]

His draft profile was that of a Checking Line Center who may be able to score a bit due to effort. In no way was he an offense first pick, which is what you said.

He has a good shot, but never was a defense center.
Hathaway is a great forechecker who scores due to effort (not those hands).
Laughton actually has offensive skills, but not as a center.

So yeah, if you want to describe him as a forechecker who can score that would be on mark.
But I'd say it's more than "effort."
Which is why I've thought for years he was better suited to LW.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

He has a good shot, but never was a defense center.
Hathaway is a great forechecker who scores due to effort (not those hands).
Laughton actually has offensive skills, but not as a center.

So yeah, if you want to describe him as a forechecker who can score that would be on mark.
But I'd say it's more than "effort."
Which is why I've thought for years he was better suited to LW.

His draft profile was a defensive and/or two-way Center. That's what he was drafted to do. It's not what I want to say. It's what you said. The complaint at the time was that they didn't go for the offensive pick in Brendan Gaunce. Turns out they got that one right!

This is weird. It's ok to just say you misspoke and that's the end of the discussion. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Fight4yourRight]

His draft profile was a defensive and/or two-way Center. That's what he was drafted to do. It's not what I want to say. It's what you said. The complaint at the time was that they didn't go for the offensive pick in Brendan Gaunce. Turns out they got that one right!

This is weird. It's ok to just say you misspoke and that's the end of the discussion. Everyone makes mistakes.

Good luck.

 

[Magua]

His draft profile was that of a Checking Line Center who may be able to score a bit due to effort. In no way was he an offense first pick, which is what you said.

I don’t think he realizes the larger self-defeating point he’s making with regard to discussing/projecting the skill-sets of teenagers.

Laughton at the pro level, at his best, has skewed more to being a scorer than a shutdown play-driver, whatever the narrative or amateur evaluation. Frost has skewed more defensive in his impacts. No one knows how players’ skills manifest up. It’s a fool’s errand to talk about amateurs and determinatively state, “This girthy player will be a defensive defenseman! That roadkill will be a one-way scorer! This historically high scoring NTDP defenseman will be a dynamo!” It’s a lesson in humility and, yet again, why drafting for fit is multi-level stupid.