Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v9 | Thu, Aug 24 | @ BAL | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Berrios vs Gibson

[canucksfan]

Came across this

 

[TMLeafer]

Extremely frustrating team to watch.

 

[MS]

Came across this

He’s been by far the biggest culprit for the RISP issues in the past few months and those numbers definitely bear that out.

 

[dredeye]

Came across this

he was on track for a huge payday. Now hes a huge risk problem for us is do you even qualify him

 

[Puckstuff]

Chapman has been very good on D but an offensive black hole since May. I don’t know what Barger/Martinez can offer next year at 3B though, big question marks if either will pan out. It feels like a bit of a gamble.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I don't know how anyone is still defending the hitters. They don't have a single 20 HR guy.

This team isn't making the playoffs.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

he was on track for a huge payday. Now hes a huge risk problem for us is do you even qualify him

You absolutely 100% qualify him. You let someone else commit long term though.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Manoah went from our best pitcher to worst
Chapman hasn't hit since May
Vladdy has been cold
Kirk has lost his power
Springer just havng a mediocre year

They just can't seem to put it together this year.

 

[saska sault]

This team just doesn't have it... they are still capable of pulling it together and going on a run but the runway is getting shorter and shorter. They seem like a team that will do that and probably fall just short, its almost as if everyone in that locker room is looking for the next guy to be the one to start the turn around and no one can do it.

Agree on Chapman, qualify him and if he wants to take a one year deal to try to bring his value back up. Sure. No way I commit long term to him after proving for the last 3 months he cannot get the bat going, his defense is great but in the AL East, thats not enough.

Team is comical to watch as a fan, you can see the turning points from game to game... Jansen going for a triple last night is one of them. Dont understand how they continue to have these type of blunders when they all know how important every run is at this point... coaching has yet to get these guys all on the same page.

 

[Suntouchable13]

If you really zoom in on the Jays issues, doesn’t the season boil down to Vladdy and Springer not having so stellar seasons? If those bats were going consistently, with the pitching and great contributions from Whit, Belt, Bo, we’d be much closer to a division championship and easily in the playoffs. I guess you can’t boil down the season to only 2 guys faltering, but don’t you think if those 2 bats were going like they are capable of we’d be in a much better spot?

 

[GoonieFace]

They bail pitchers out too often. Struggling pitcher throws meatball down the middle? They take it. Struggling pitcher with a 2-0 or 3-1 count throws something off the plate? They swing at it.

Just a terrible approach.

I agree. That 2-0 count pitch was a little on the inside. We needed runners and swinging at something in a 2-0 count against an elite reliever isn’t a great approach. If he misses there it’s 3-0. You have to make him throw pitches, get deep in counts. These guys are hacking at everything

 

[LaP]

Chapman has been very good on D but an offensive black hole since May. I don’t know what Barger/Martinez can offer next year at 3B though, big question marks if either will pan out. It feels like a bit of a gamble.

It's crazy he was hitting for what after the first month almost 400? He's at 248 now ...

 

[LaP]

If you really zoom in on the Jays issues, doesn’t the season boil down to Vladdy and Springer not having so stellar seasons? If those bats were going consistently, with the pitching and great contributions from Whit, Belt, Bo, we’d be much closer to a division championship and easily in the playoffs. I guess you can’t boil down the season to only 2 guys faltering, but don’t you think if those 2 bats were going like they are capable of we’d be in a much better spot?

It's part of the equation but I think it's a lot more complicated than that. At the beginning of the season Vlad was doing okay but the team was not winning more cause other guys like Varsho were cold. Now those other guys are hitting better Vlad and Chapman are cold. Don't be surprised if the hitters start hitting that the pitchers will start giving runs. Personally i would look at management first.

Do you really want those guys to be the one having to right the ship? I said at the beginning of the year that Atkins remind me Marc Bergevin and i honestly sign this affirmation. He makes good trades. But overall he doesn't seem to know how to build a team. One step forward one step backyard type of guys. He improved the defense and bullpen but the offense is now struggling. Do you want him to be the one trading Vlad? Montreal Canadiens decided to keep Marc Bergevin and let him trade Subban and honestly the rest is history.

I think a lot of Jays fans underestimate what Hernandez brought offensively probably because of some advanced stats or whatever. He's at the end of his career and letting him go was the right call but prime Hernandez has not been replaced in the lineup. Vlad looks awful and he only has himself to blame for that but there's not a lot of power in that lineup. And for a lineup without power there's no much speed on base either. No power and no speed is not a recipe for success.

 

[Suntouchable13]

It's part of the equation but I think it's a lot more complicated than that. At the beginning of the season Vlad was doing okay but the team was not winning more cause other guys like Varsho were cold. Now those other guys are hitting better Vlad and Chapman are cold. Don't be surprised if the hitters start hitting that the pitchers will start giving runs. Personally i would look at management first.

Do you really want those guys to be the one having to right the ship? I said at the beginning of the year that Atkins remind me Marc Bergevin and i honestly sign this affirmation. He makes good trades. But overall he doesn't seem to know how to build a team. One step forward one step backyard type of guys. He improved the defense and bullpen but the offense is now struggling. Do you want him to be the one trading Vlad? Montreal Canadiens decided to keep Marc Bergevin and let him trade Subban and honestly the rest is history.

I think a lot of Jays fans underestimate what Hernandez brought offensively probably because of some advanced stats or whatever. He's at the end of his career and letting him go was the right call but prime Hernandez has not been replaced in the lineup. Vlad looks awful and he only has himself to blame for that but there's not a lot of power in that lineup. And for a lineup without power there's no much speed on base either. No power and no speed is not a recipe for success.

I see what you’re saying, but also we should feel a little lucky that we still have a good team. Look at how the rebuild in Chicago for the Sox has gone totally sideways. Look at even a team like SD who is below .500 and is struggling to find consistency after spending all that money and looking they are stacked. Jays are 11 games over and 1.5 games back who can still very realistically make it. But if they don’t, we need to see widespread firings. Starting with Atkins and the hitting coaches.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Ive been trying to refrain from thinking this but its getting to be a bit excessive.

Kirk was one of my favorite players last season, manoah too, but how can one mlb team have 3 top players all far overweight for 2 full mlb seasons with trainers, gyms, nutritionists, chefs etc
All three of them should be in noticeably better shape by now.

Do any other teams have even 2 significantly overweight everyday players?

Schneider should get in better shape too .. he leads by a terrible example .. i don't care what anyone on here says .. i heard it directly from Pete Walker's bro while in Connecticut on vacation recently Manoah has put on 40+ pounds since last year .. he can't rotate like he used too due to excessive weight .. someone needs to start to slap these guys around .. clearly these immature guys can't do it themselves and current mgmt does not have da stones to force compliance

 

[LaP]

I see what you’re saying, but also we should feel a little lucky that we still have a good team. Look at how the rebuild in Chicago for the Sox has gone totally sideways. Look at even a team like SD who is below .500 and is struggling to find consistency after spending all that money and looking they are stacked. Jays are 11 games over and 1.5 games back who can still very realistically make it. But if they don’t, we need to see widespread firings. Starting with Atkins and the hitting coaches.

That's kind of my point the team is still good and a good management could right the ship rapidly. Atkins will feel the pressure to do something next summer if the team misses since there was lot of expectation. I think if the team misses and there's any doubt about him he should be axe. I would not take the risk to let a desperate management with lot of pressure handle the Vlad Junior situation.

 

[canucksfan]

I see what you’re saying, but also we should feel a little lucky that we still have a good team. Look at how the rebuild in Chicago for the Sox has gone totally sideways. Look at even a team like SD who is below .500 and is struggling to find consistency after spending all that money and looking they are stacked. Jays are 11 games over and 1.5 games back who can still very realistically make it. But if they don’t, we need to see widespread firings. Starting with Atkins and the hitting coaches.

Atkins should only go if they can get a good replacement for him. There are a lot of worse options out there than Atkins. Click would be the obvious choice. Atkins has done a good job in most areas.

Hudgens needs to go. A hitting strategist who is older and likely not forward-thinking doesn't make sense. Rarely do I see players talking to him during games.

 

[Suntouchable13]

That's kind of my point the team is still good and a good management could right the ship rapidly. Atkins will feel the pressure to do something next summer if the team misses since there was lot of expectation. I think if the team misses and there's any doubt about him he should be axe. I would not take the risk to let a desperate management with lot of pressure handle the Vlad Junior situation.

To be honest, I don’t think Atkins is the guy. If the Jays miss, he should be gone right away. He is Shapiro’s guy for a long time, though, not sure if Shapiro will actually fire him.

 

[metafour]

It's part of the equation but I think it's a lot more complicated than that. At the beginning of the season Vlad was doing okay but the team was not winning more cause other guys like Varsho were cold. Now those other guys are hitting better Vlad and Chapman are cold. Don't be surprised if the hitters start hitting that the pitchers will start giving runs. Personally i would look at management first.

Do you really want those guys to be the one having to right the ship? I said at the beginning of the year that Atkins remind me Marc Bergevin and i honestly sign this affirmation. He makes good trades. But overall he doesn't seem to know how to build a team. One step forward one step backyard type of guys. He improved the defense and bullpen but the offense is now struggling. Do you want him to be the one trading Vlad? Montreal Canadiens decided to keep Marc Bergevin and let him trade Subban and honestly the rest is history.

I think a lot of Jays fans underestimate what Hernandez brought offensively probably because of some advanced stats or whatever. He's at the end of his career and letting him go was the right call but prime Hernandez has not been replaced in the lineup. Vlad looks awful and he only has himself to blame for that but there's not a lot of power in that lineup. And for a lineup without power there's no much speed on base either. No power and no speed is not a recipe for success.

Yawn.

It isn't "more complicated" at all. Without your best players performing up to their expected ability, the best you can do is simply float around and "compete" - which is what this team has been doing for months now. It's actually a minor miracle that this team is still 10+ games over .500 given the complete non-production for literally months on end from what are supposed to be "star level players".

I disagree entirely that there "isn't power in the lineup". There is power clearly there, it just isn't materializing or producing at all. That is a BIG difference. This isn't a "small ball" lineup that was constructed with a lack of power. Guerrero, Chapman, and Springer are ALL "power hitters" and have been successful power hitters in the past. All three of those guys have basically hit for zero power for months on end, often at the exact same time. I don't know what Atkins is supposed to do about that, because this level of regression doesn't even make sense.

Did you know that in the month of August, the above three hitters have COMBINED to hit a total of 4 home runs?? Santander from the Orioles just hit 3 against us in a two-game stretch. Guerrero won the HR Derby and yet he has basically become a singles-hitter the past 3+ months. Chapman leads the league in lost-HR's because he has completely forgotten how to pull the baseball and keeps hitting 400-foot flyouts to dead center. Springer has dropped ~70 points in ISO from last season alone.

Even Alejandro Kirk has seen a significant regression in his ISO output this season.

Teoscar Hernandez isn't the missing piece here my guy. Brandon Belt, who was a "replacement" for Teoscar, is hitting for more power (ISO) this season than Teoscar has hit for. You are over-complicating something that is incredibly simple. The literal problem is that you have a lineup wherein 4+ good to "great" hitters have all at the same time become replacement level hitters. Alejandro Kirk was an All-Star just a season ago, now we are basically just praying that there is no one on 1st base when he comes up to bat.

Find me any playoff team in the league and take 4-5 guys in their lineup who are expected to perform as above-average to impact hitters and turn them all into pumpkins at the same time. The result would be the same as you are seeing now from the Jays. What, you think the Braves are still a 100+ win team if Acuna, Olsen, Riley, and Albies all dropped off a cliff at the same time?

The best teams in the league are where they are because their best players perform as such. Period. This season has been a complete bizzaro-clownshow for the Jays wherein you are seeing "the best players" being outproduced by freaking Whit Merrifield. At some point your best players need to do their freaking job. Not acquiring Tommy Pham isn't why this team is where it's at right now.

 

[the valiant effort]

To be honest, I don’t think Atkins is the guy. If the Jays miss, he should be gone right away. He is Shapiro’s guy for a long time, though, not sure if Shapiro will actually fire him.

Exactly.

Here comes Tanner Bibee tonight, who tossed 7 IP in the Jays’ 1-0 loss two weeks ago.

RE: Springer, he has always had “sudden” steep regression written all over him. Dude’s a buttery soft, cheating loser.

 

[chewey]

It's part of the equation but I think it's a lot more complicated than that. At the beginning of the season Vlad was doing okay but the team was not winning more cause other guys like Varsho were cold. Now those other guys are hitting better Vlad and Chapman are cold. Don't be surprised if the hitters start hitting that the pitchers will start giving runs. Personally i would look at management first.

Do you really want those guys to be the one having to right the ship? I said at the beginning of the year that Atkins remind me Marc Bergevin and i honestly sign this affirmation. He makes good trades. But overall he doesn't seem to know how to build a team. One step forward one step backyard type of guys. He improved the defense and bullpen but the offense is now struggling. Do you want him to be the one trading Vlad? Montreal Canadiens decided to keep Marc Bergevin and let him trade Subban and honestly the rest is history.

I think a lot of Jays fans underestimate what Hernandez brought offensively probably because of some advanced stats or whatever. He's at the end of his career and letting him go was the right call but prime Hernandez has not been replaced in the lineup. Vlad looks awful and he only has himself to blame for that but there's not a lot of power in that lineup. And for a lineup without power there's no much speed on base either. No power and no speed is not a recipe for success.

I mean if you admit he makes good trades (which you did)… why wouldn’t you want him to trade Vladdy? Wouldn’t it be.. a good trade?

 

[Hoverhand]

The thing that gets me the most about Springer is it doesn't seem to be some aging or injury drop off. His profile is still very similar in a lot of ways. He's a plus defender, limits Ks, late 200s BABIP, etc.

It's just his power has taken such a severe drop off that it's tanking his season. I'm going to cling to some optimism here and just hope it's an approach issue. Sure would be interesting to hear what Martinez, Hudgens, and Mense have to say about it!

 

[Eyedea]

Exactly.

Here comes Tanner Bibee tonight, who tossed 7 IP in the Jays’ 1-0 loss two weeks ago.

RE: Springer, he has always had “sudden” steep regression written all over him. Dude’s a buttery soft, cheating loser.

Steep regression because he was only good due to cheating? Come on now lol

 

[MS]

I agree. That 2-0 count pitch was a little on the inside. We needed runners and swinging at something in a 2-0 count against an elite reliever isn’t a great approach. If he misses there it’s 3-0. You have to make him throw pitches, get deep in counts. These guys are hacking at everything

It was over the plate in Vladdy's absolute wheelhouse. He absolutely torches fastballs on the inside half of the plate.

You're going to the plate there trying to work the count to get a pitch to hit. Guerrero did exactly that - let two balls go by, got a fastball count, got a fastball exactly where he wanted ... and missed it.

Same deal with Varsho - took a bunch of pitches, got way ahead in the count, got a pitch to hit and hit it like 395 feet and just missed a HR.

Both guys did exactly what you want them to do in that situation, especially considering the quality of the guy they were facing.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

To be honest, I don’t think Atkins is the guy. If the Jays miss, he should be gone right away. He is Shapiro’s guy for a long time, though, not sure if Shapiro will actually fire him.

I've never really latched on to Shapiro and Atkins, so my affinity to them is not that high. I've respected what they've done, and the process in doing so, and I'm all for giving management some tenure than just abruptly getting rid of them if there are no results within 3 years (for example).

But at some point you have to look at his (Atkins') direction. 8 years now at the helm, and the team really hasn't achieved its capabilities. Especially when another team within your division (Baltimore) went from being a bottom-feeder to now surpassing them in that time.

I like that Shapiro has focused more on the off-field portion that comes with the president's job now than when he first came in.