Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v9 | Thu, Aug 24 | @ BAL | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Berrios vs Gibson

[al secord]

The criticism of Varsho has been limited to his play. The criticism of Guerrero consistently goes way beyond that, to the point where people are ragging on him for untucking his jersey at the end of games and that sort of thing. Consistent personal insults every day here.

Almost nobody in baseball runs out routine ground balls consistently which is why a guy like Kiermaier stands out like a sore thumb. I'd like to see Guerrero do it better but he isn't different from 90% of MLB players in that regard.

So when he was playing well and everyone was in love with him, was that in spite of his race?

 

[MS]

So when he was playing well and everyone was in love with him, was that in spite of his race?

When he was playing well, a large segment of the fanbase were still endlessly bitching about the barrio and the HR jacket and that the Caribbean players didn't take things seriously enough and that's why we weren't winning enough. They actually had to get rid of the HR jacket because people whinged about it so much and now we're one of the only teams in baseball that doesn't do something silly after a HR.

Again : criticizing his play is fair. He obviously has high expectations and hasn't reached them. But the personal insults and hate are totally over-the-top and WAY out of proportion with those struggles.

 

[GoonieFace]

When he was playing well, a large segment of the fanbase were still endlessly bitching about the barrio and the HR jacket and that the Caribbean players didn't take things seriously enough and that's why we weren't winning enough. They actually had to get rid of the HR jacket because people whinged about it so much and now we're one of the only teams in baseball that doesn't do something silly after a HR.

Again : criticizing his play is fair. He obviously has high expectations and hasn't reached them. But the personal insults and hate are totally over-the-top and WAY out of proportion with those struggles.

I’m not sure if he’s overweight or not, he’s naturally a big guy, but the criticism of his play is fair. His defence has also been bad, which wasn’t the case last year. Maybe the commitment isn’t there, who knows.

 

[MS]

I’m not sure if he’s overweight or not, he’s naturally a big guy, but the criticism of his play is fair. His defence has also been bad, which wasn’t the case last year. Maybe the commitment isn’t there, who knows.

Absolutely, criticism is fair.

I think if anything at the plate he feels the pressure/expectations and tries to do too much and that's when he starts chasing too much and struggling.

And I'll keep saying this : for the first 50-ish games of this season, he was terrific and his numbers were pretty much in line with 2021 - he was rocking a .900 OPS and a 150 OPS+. Then he hurt his knee in a game against Pittsburgh and they rushed him back after taking only 1 game off and he immediately went into a massive slump that he's never really come out of. I'm strongly of the opinion that playing him through an injury mucked up his mechanics and that's the biggest reason for most of his struggles this year.

 

[GreytWun]

My frustration with Vladdy is his 80 grade hit tool with 18 home runs and an eye that makes him swing at pitches that are balls the second they are out the pitchers hand... down in the dirt and away.

You can’t bring those facts here. It must be his race, yea that’s it. Nevermind we saw the exact same posts last year when Bo was terrible until late August. Must be because he’s wh……

 

[Discoverer]

You can’t bring those facts here. It must be his race, yea that’s it. Nevermind we saw the exact same posts last year when Bo was terrible until late August. Must be because he’s wh……

People expressed frustration with Bo's on-field play. Did anyone actually question his effort level or dedication or how seriously he took the game?

 

[MS]

You can’t bring those facts here. It must be his race, yea that’s it. Nevermind we saw the exact same posts last year when Bo was terrible until late August. Must be because he’s wh……

Exact same?

I don't recall any of the sort of personal insults and character questioning that we're seeing of Guerrero. People were frustrated with his play and his defense, but it was the same sort of tone we see with Varsho or whoever where it's limited to his play. Normal stuff for a struggling player.

I mean, f***. When Guerrero made a smart play a couple games back to drop a pop-up to create a double play, someone here posted that Merrifield must have told him to because Vladdy was too stupid to figure that out himself. It's brutal.

 

[mikeyz]

The vitriolic hate for Guerrero right now is something else and I'm certainly dubious that the reaction would be the same if it was a young white hitter having an average season. And it isn't even like he's signed a huge contract yet and getting overpaid is a reason for derision.

His approach for the last month has been great (15BB:12K) but it seems like the mechanical thing is popping up again where he's rolling over on too many balls. But he's lazy! He's fat! He swings at everything! His shirt is untucked! He's laughing in the dugout sometimes! Everything bad is his fault!

Did you seriously just pull the race card? Come on man! It has NOTHING to do with race and EVERYTHING to do with him playing like garbage.

Bichette is white and he was absolute dogshit last year defensively and was the whipping boy on here.

 

[MS]

Did you seriously just pull the race card? Come on man! It has NOTHING to do with race and EVERYTHING to do with him playing like garbage.

Bichette is white and he was absolute dogshit last year defensively and was the whipping boy on here.

Yet again :

There is a massive difference between the legitimate criticism of play that we saw with Bichette (or Varsho, or whoever) and the personal vitriol and insults and character-questioning we're seeing on a daily basis with Guerrero.

It's absolutely brutal and we've seen a consistent undercurrent of this with people getting triggered by the Caribbean players for a few years now.

 

[CherryToke]

Exact same?

I don't recall any of the sort of personal insults and character questioning that we're seeing of Guerrero. People were frustrated with his play and his defense, but it was the same sort of tone we see with Varsho or whoever where it's limited to his play. Normal stuff for a struggling player.

I mean, f***. When Guerrero made a smart play a couple games back to drop a pop-up to create a double play, someone here posted that Merrifield must have told him to because Vladdy was too stupid to figure that out himself. It's brutal.

Might have something to do with Bo not acting like a clown or running his mouth. Water cooler antics, throwing sunflower seeds in peoples faces during TV interviews. "This is only the preview", "My house, my hooouse", "I'm gonna get 70 HRs this year", "I'll never play for the Yankees".

Bo just quietly shit the bed without the antics.

 

[Eyedea]

Might have something to do with Bo not acting like a clown or running his mouth. Water cooler antics, throwing sunflower seeds in peoples faces during TV interviews. "This is only the preview", "My house, my hooouse", "I'm gonna get 70 HRs this year", "I'll never play for the Yankees".

Bo just quietly shit the bed without the antics.

If people in the clubhouse were annoyed by his “antics” then it would’ve been addressed by now. It’s okay man they’re all adults. You don’t have to be annoyed for them.

 

[GreytWun]

I have criticized Guerrero about his play but to says I criticize him because he’s black is a joke. Nothing should be just randomly called to race just because people criticize a player.

 

[MS]

Might have something to do with Bo not acting like a clown or running his mouth. Water cooler antics, throwing sunflower seeds in peoples faces during TV interviews. "This is only the preview", "My house, my hooouse", "I'm gonna get 70 HRs this year", "I'll never play for the Yankees".

Bo just quietly shit the bed without the antics.

What a list of incredibly mundane things to be triggered by.

Basically you hate him because he has fun sometimes and said some positive things about the team's future. Sure thing. And because he doesn't want to play for the hated Yankees? Seriously?

This sort of reaction to him based on untucking his shirt or a silly water cooler tradition is literally exactly what I'm talking about. It's pathetic.

 

[Puckstuff]

Do we need an entire page on whether or not posters are micro-aggressing against players? It’s always preferable to talk just about baseball over assuming the worst in others and derailing the thread.

 

[CherryToke]

What a list of incredibly mundane things to be triggered by.

Basically you hate him because he has fun sometimes and said some positive things about the team's future. Sure thing. And because he doesn't want to play for the hated Yankees? Seriously?

This sort of reaction to him based on untucking his shirt or a silly water cooler tradition is literally exactly what I'm talking about. It's pathetic.

No, you said it was racism. Way to change the goal post. I've personally never met a class clown that was a good student. Vladdy's poor performance and downward spiral reflects that. Time to grow up.

 

[MS]

No, you said it was racism. Way to change the goal post. I've personally never met a class clown that was a good student. Vladdy's poor performance and downward spiral reflects that. Time to grow up.

Dude nearly won the MVP and won a Gold Glove last year acting exactly the same way. He's a great student but you're getting triggered by Caribbean baseball culture.

 

[Eyedea]

No, you said it was racism. Way to change the goal post. I've personally never met a class clown that was a good student. Vladdy's poor performance and downward spiral reflects that. Time to grow up.

Really? Because there’s been plenty of goofy/quirky baseball players over the years that excelled. And really most of the names off the top of my head are Dominican natives.

 

[dredeye]

The vitriolic hate for Guerrero right now is something else and I'm certainly dubious that the reaction would be the same if it was a young white hitter having an average season. And it isn't even like he's signed a huge contract yet and getting overpaid is a reason for derision.

His approach for the last month has been great (15BB:12K) but it seems like the mechanical thing is popping up again where he's rolling over on too many balls. But he's lazy! He's fat! He swings at everything! His shirt is untucked! He's laughing in the dugout sometimes! Everything bad is his fault!

So now if someone is upset at how poorly Vladdy has played we are racist. Sounds like solid logic. Only reason we could ever possibly be upset is because he’s black. It couldn’t have anything to door with his regressed bat and defence. His loss of power or the fact that he’s been worth 1.2 war on the season as our elite gold glove winning 1B. Sorry bud people are allowed to be disappointed by that.

Just getting caught up here and see that there’s been a lot of back and forth on this. I’ll add the antics and all that I don’t really care about. The pouring Gatorade on players after every win is a little tired but I really don’t care about that. I care about his performance

 

[Eyedea]

So now if someone is upset at how poorly Vladdy has played we are racist. Sounds like solid logic. Only reason we could ever possibly be upset is because he’s black. It couldn’t have anything to door with his regressed bat and defence. His loss of power or the fact that he’s been worth 1.2 war on the season as our elite gold glove winning 1B. Sorry bud people are allowed to be disappointed by that.

Why not just say he’s been bad then?

Why does every “he’s been bad” follow up with

“Because he’s fat”
And/or
“Because he only focuses on annoying his teammates”

 

[CherryToke]

Really? Because there’s been plenty of goofy/quirky baseball players over the years that excelled. And really most of the names off the top of my head are Dominican natives.

He's not excelling though

 

[Eyedea]

He's not excelling though

But your argument was that he can’t which is simply not true.

 

[VanillaCoke]

You're literally the only one to bring race into this. Truly pathetic argument.

I dont think anyone else even thought about it, doesn't pass the smell test. Very pathetic argument and more massive generalizations dont make for a compelling perspective.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I get ur point and it is very well taken .. but imagine all those guys and Vlady and Manoah if they took their conditioning SERIOUSLY .. holy they'd be SUPERSTARS

Ive been trying to refrain from thinking this but its getting to be a bit excessive.

Kirk was one of my favorite players last season, manoah too, but how can one mlb team have 3 top players all far overweight for 2 full mlb seasons with trainers, gyms, nutritionists, chefs etc
All three of them should be in noticeably better shape by now.

Do any other teams have even 2 significantly overweight everyday players?

 

[CherryToke]

But your argument was that he can’t which is simply not true.

I never said he can't. He's clearly capable. Do you think it's a coincidence that he put up MVP numbers after working his butt off in the offseason prior to the 2021 season? Maybe it is. I personally think it's not. Did he abandon that work out plan after putting up MVP numbers? He's definitely not as fit as he was that season, hence the Fatty G comments. Maybe he can only hit bombs in minor league parks but I don't buy that argument. He was launching bombs that would clear any stadium. Is the batting eye in MLB parks too difficult for him? Not sure I would but that argument either.

 

[dredeye]

When you read the consistent over-the-top hate from some people, it's difficult not to.

And there has always been a consistent theme here of people loving traditional 'white guy' baseball ethos of being ultra-serious all the time while getting absolutely triggered by the more Caribbean ethos of having fun, untucking your shirt or wearing your hat sideways, or whatever.

We're seeing multiple posts every day calling Guerrero a lazy fat slob, etc. It's awful and it's embarrassing.

Doubling down on the racism lol. I’m as active as anyone in here. There are a handful of people who regularly bash Vladdy. The weight is the regular factor. Which also applies to Kirk and Manoah from those same people. When they are all underperforming it’s an obvious issue to look at. Conditioning in an athlete. I read later you talk how Chapman doesn’t get the same reaction and he’s paid more. Which is so disingenuous considering Vladdy is still an arb player who also makes marginally less btw as one. Chapman also started hot which I think pulled attention away from him but he’s been awful since his incredible pace to start the season. But it’s funny you used him as an example but not the “white guy” Varsho who’s also had an awful season and has been bashed and hated on throughout. Guys complained about how much better we’d be if we didn’t make that trade and it was a waste. He’s a garbage player who can’t do anything but bunt and play d. So stop playing a race card you have no business playing to try and make a point. Yes guys can be over the top and it gets repetitive. But it’s a slow game where we watch no changes be made and a team drastically underperform. That frustration will be targeted at those underperforming. You don’t see people bitching about pitching outside of Manoah who’s underperforming.