Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v9 | Thu, Aug 24 | @ BAL | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Berrios vs Gibson

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
How do you make moves to address RISP?

They have quality hitters at basically every position (save Varsho's bad year) who overall have some of the best metrics in MLB but the clutch hitting (which history tells us is basically mostly chance/luck) has been brutal. All of these guys have hit with RISP in the past.

They've made 1-2 big moves every year for the past couple years.
There's a couple of guys in the lineup who are very slow on base though. They are good hitters but they wont score from the 2nd unless it's hit far from the outfielder and they wont score from the 3rd on a sac unless it's at the warning track. I've seen 2-3 times a guy being stuck at first on what should have been a double too. Kirk, Jensen, Belt and Vlad are not the fastest guys on base. I don't know how accurate the sprint speed stats is but Kirk is almost last in MLB, Jansen is at the end of the 2nd tier and both Belt and Guerrero are in the middle of the last tier. Dejong is not fast either.
 
Yeah, this is the thing. There has been a ton of research into it and absolutely no evidence found to support the idea that "clutch" or RISP hitting is a repeatable, identifiable, selectable skill. The best you can hope for is that you assemble a team full of quality hitters (which, for the most part they did given that the team ranks reasonably highly in most offensive stats) and figure that good hitters will hit well in all situations.

The problem is that the fact RISP hitting isn't repeatable means that you're gonna have times where good hitters have crap RISP/clutch hitting years. It's just weird that it's all happening at once this season.

And to wit:

Vlad this season:
all situations: batting .267, OPSing .786
RISP: batting .288, OPSing .766

Vlad career:
all situations: .281, OPSing .848
RISP: .283, OPSING .931

So he's actually doing better on average while seeing his OPS dip mostly on account of a RISP power outage. But for his career his RISP #s are overall better than his career than his all-situations ones. By most definitions of how people use the term, Vladdy should qualify as a good clutch hitter. But that's not the case because people will rely on anecdotal evidence and the recency of his struggles this season.
Dunno having watched Jeter and Ortiz in playoffs i'd say clutch is definitely a thing. But it's not really quantifiable. And it's something very few players possesses for the others it comes and go from seasons to seasons.

When Ortiz was showing at the plate at important moments you could feel the tension. You could feel he was intimidating to pitchers. You could feel the pitcher was one bad pitch away from a debacle.
 
As each day passes its one less day for a fresh voice (new hitting coach) to get to know whats needed and give them a new direction at the plate. Not saying things will change much but were at wits end right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LaP
Monoah and the offense is the most disgraceful thing in sports.

Pure trash. It’s unwatchable.
 
How do you make moves to address RISP?

They have quality hitters at basically every position (save Varsho's bad year) who overall have some of the best metrics in MLB but the clutch hitting (which history tells us is basically mostly chance/luck) has been brutal. All of these guys have hit with RISP in the past.

They've made 1-2 big moves every year for the past couple years.
I gave two examples of moves he could’ve made to help the offense.

It’s annoying that he settles. Every season, every offseason. He’s probably not the GM to take the team to the next level.
 
Manoah is in a really tough spot right now. He’s not worth Betting on cause we need wins now and he’s not trustworthy. And come playoff time he’s not worth putting in the pen because we already have enough guys down there and Chad Greene is coming back soon

I’m still perplexed with Vladdy. World of talent just seems like he’s just ok being mediocre. His numbers have declined the past 3 years. I really used to think this guy was untouchable in trades but if this team fails to even make the playoffs I wouldn’t hesitate moving him for the right price
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beaumaris
Once bo is back Dejong should be shot into the sun
He’s got a .067 batting avg in the 9 games he’s played for us previous to todays continued failings. Great defensively, horrific offensively.

And please, send Davis back down. Midnight has passed and he’s turned into a pumpkin this series.

Too many players in this lineup who don’t know the concept of clutch. It’s becoming predictable. Varsho, Kirk, Chapman…you can set your clock to their ineptness with risp.
 
Dunno having watched Jeter and Ortiz in playoffs i'd say clutch is definitely a thing. But it's not really quantifiable. And it's something very few players possesses for the others it comes and go from seasons to seasons.

When Ortiz was showing at the plate at important moments you could feel the tension. You could feel he was intimidating to pitchers. You could feel the pitcher was one bad pitch away from a debacle.

Basically every argument you're making is one that speaks to its lack of a thing.

1) #s in the playoffs are small samples and inherently swingier, making real conclusions and observations on them suspect at best

2) suggesting it's there for some and comes and goes for others points to its unreliability. If only a very small handful of players can demonstrate consistency and everyone else is subject to wild variance then it's hard to suggest that the variance isn't the norm and the few nodes of consistency aren't just the fact that sometimes you flip a coin and it gives you 10 heads in a row, especially if the coin is already slightly weighted towards heads (in this analogy the weighting is the possession of overall high inherent skill). If it were a true repeatable skill then players would be consistently good or bad at it on the whole

3) mushy/vague and anecdotal claims in lieu of hard evidence speak more to our ability to see patterns where none exist rather than real observation. Of course we remember the times that stand out or conform to expectation because we don't remember everything and those things are by nature more memorable.

David Ortiz:

.286/.380/.552/.931 career slash line (avg/obp/slg/ops) (10,091 career Plate Appearances)
.296/.411/.531/943 (3014 PAs) with RISP
.276/.417/.534/.870 (1299 PAs) RISP w/2 outs
.256/.371/.499/.870 (1451 PAs) in "late and close"* situations

.289/.404/.543/.947 career post-season (369 PAs)

Jeter offers similar #s. I don't want to type everything out but it's .817 career OPS, .810 with RISP (3112 PA), .816 RISP/2 outs (1380 PA), .776 Late & Close (1725 PA), .838 post-season (in 734 PAs vs over 12,600 regular season career)

*Baseball-Reference defines "late & close" as any situation in the 7th inning or later where a) the game is tied, b) the batting team is leading by one run, or c) the batting team is has the tying run on deck (including situations with runners on base to account for larger deficits)

I can't find post-season splits likely because most places won't carry them in easily filed locations since they're going to be so limited as to be almost valueless (if you consider that those RISP and late/close splits are like 13-30% of a player's career plate appearances, then you're talking <100 PAs for all but the longest-running playoff qualifiers for any situational split.

The crux of this is that yeah, those two have slightly better post season batting #s than their regular season numbers. But they also may tend to have slightly worse regular season "clutch" performance #s than their baseline regular season #s. If clutchness and rising to the occasion was a consistent and repeatable skill, they should show growth and improvement in most or many important situations but they don't. The only one they do is the one that also has the least amount of evidence and is therefor subject to the greatest amount of variation (a WS run might see 60-70 plate appearances, enough to make a big dent if he struggled. For instance with Jeter, in the Yankees' WS loss to Arizona he notched 62 plate appearances for the entire playoffs and hit .193, largely buoyed by throttling the A's in the ALDS)

Suggesting that clutch hitting doesn't exist as a repeatable skill also doesn't mean that nobody will ever show a hitting profile that suggests them 'rising to the occasion' or whatever. Outliers are a thing that happens in statistical analysis. Good players are going to have moments of doing well in important situations and it's going to give them the reputation of being better in those spots. The issue is that if not enough people are better in those spots, and people in general are not consistently and regularly better or worse in a repeatable fashion, it means that the observed ebbs and flows are

For instance, I may not have situational splits, but a quick bit of napkin math on Jeter's postseason game log shows he went hitless in 9 of 38 career World Series games and had just 1 hit in 19 more. So in 28 of 38 career games in the world series he batted (likely) .250 or worse if we figure an average of 4 plate appearances per game. And then this is offset by those other 10 games where he would go 2/4, 3/5, 4/4 or whatever and push the average up significantly.

And just for a bit of added info, in those 19 1-hit games he had 2 HR and 3 RBIs (obviously only 1 of which was an RBI from a base hit and not him just hitting a solo HR and getting credit for himself). So those times where he only had the one hit it isn't like he was making the most of it (across the 28 1-or-0 hit games he had 11 runs scored. if we take off 2 for the HRs that means he was cashed in by other Yankee hitters 9 times in those 28 games or like 110ish plate appearances. Good for him but the Yankees generally had thunderous offenses and runs scored is not so much indicative of a player's skill as it is the skills of those around him)

basically I'm not saying that clutch performances don't exist nor that nobody's ever seen somebody do something big in a big moment. What does appear to be true is that the ability to rise to the occasion and be clutch when it matters on an ongoing and repeatable basis is more than likely not real. Good players are going to have good stretches which includes good output in big moments sometimes. But it rarely happens with the consistency and predictability to suggest that it's a skill that can be captured and declared repeatable.

I don't have time right now to go back and find the previous post (I was supposed to be backing up the files on my computer because I'm starting to get some curious behavior from its hard drive that's making me give it side-eye but instead I've been down the rabbit hole on this issue and now it's 3pm and I have to go make dinner in like an hour and a bit) but I'm fairly certain I previously linked to a bunch of studies that were conducted on the concept of clutch performance and found that there's not enough evidence to draw a strong conclusion in favor of its existence.


EDIT: One quick link that went in on clutch hitting (using regular season performance):


It's a ton of math, much of which can be difficult to decipher if you're not familiar with some mildly obscure metrics on run creation and win probability, but the gist of it is that using a variety of measures to examine clutchness, they found some curiously noisy results including what I wanted to highlight:

based on the criteria set, David Ortiz was in the top 5% most clutch players in MLB twice (2005 and 2006) and in the bottom 5% 3 times (2007, 2011, 2013). Tony Gwynn (4 top performances, 2 bottom), Joe Morgan (3 top, 2 bottom), Frank Robinson (2 top, 3 bottom), Pete Rose (3 top, 2 bottom) and Larry Walker (2 top, 2 bottom) were also among a group of players that appeared at both the very top and very bottom of their leaderboards multiple times each across their careers. And in most cases the appearances do not line up in a way to plot a trajectory (starting good and getting worse or starting bad and getting better) and instead are simply all over the place at random. The conclusion of their research is that players can be clutch, but they are rarely if ever repeatably clutch (or unclutch) over the course of their whole careers.
 
Last edited:
I gave two examples of moves he could’ve made to help the offense.

It’s annoying that he settles. Every season, every offseason. He’s probably not the GM to take the team to the next level.

A 4th outfielder upgrade isn't moving the needle in terms of the overall RISP issues. It's an overall team mental block right now combined with some really bad luck - ie. today Springer on a 14-27 roll in a key spot gets rung up on an obvious ball.

I don't see how they're 'settling'. Gausman and Chapman are two of the biggest impact acquisitions any GM in baseball has made in the last couple years. Berrios they moved 2 of their top 5 prospects at the time for. Varsho has been disappointing but that was a big-time swing for the fences moving their #1 prospect. Like, what exactly are you expecting here? I don't think you'll find another MLB team who has made that many impact acquisitions/high value trades in the last 2 years.
 
Basically every argument you're making is one that speaks to its lack of a thing.

1) #s in the playoffs are small samples and inherently swingier, making real conclusions and observations on them suspect at best

2) suggesting it's there for some and comes and goes for others points to its unreliability. If only a very small handful of players can demonstrate consistency and everyone else is subject to wild variance then it's hard to suggest that the variance isn't the norm and the few nodes of consistency aren't just the fact that sometimes you flip a coin and it gives you 10 heads in a row, especially if the coin is already slightly weighted towards heads (in this analogy the weighting is the possession of overall high inherent skill). If it were a true repeatable skill then players would be consistently good or bad at it on the whole

3) mushy/vague and anecdotal claims in lieu of hard evidence speak more to our ability to see patterns where none exist rather than real observation. Of course we remember the times that stand out or conform to expectation because we don't remember everything and those things are by nature more memorable.

David Ortiz:

.286/.380/.552/.931 career slash line (avg/obp/slg/ops) (10,091 career Plate Appearances)
.296/.411/.531/943 (3014 PAs) with RISP
.276/.417/.534/.870 (1299 PAs) RISP w/2 outs
.256/.371/.499/.870 (1451 PAs) in "late and close"* situations

.289/.404/.543/.947 career post-season (369 PAs)

Jeter offers similar #s. I don't want to type everything out but it's .817 career OPS, .810 with RISP (3112 PA), .816 RISP/2 outs (1380 PA), .776 Late & Close (1725 PA), .838 post-season (in 734 PAs vs over 12,600 regular season career)

*Baseball-Reference defines "late & close" as any situation in the 7th inning or later where a) the game is tied, b) the batting team is leading by one run, or c) the batting team is has the tying run on deck (including situations with runners on base to account for larger deficits)

I can't find post-season splits likely because most places won't carry them in easily filed locations since they're going to be so limited as to be almost valueless (if you consider that those RISP and late/close splits are like 13-30% of a player's career plate appearances, then you're talking <100 PAs for all but the longest-running playoff qualifiers for any situational split.

The crux of this is that yeah, those two have slightly better post season batting #s than their regular season numbers. But they also may tend to have slightly worse regular season "clutch" performance #s than their baseline regular season #s. If clutchness and rising to the occasion was a consistent and repeatable skill, they should show growth and improvement in most or many important situations but they don't. The only one they do is the one that also has the least amount of evidence and is therefor subject to the greatest amount of variation (a WS run might see 60-70 plate appearances, enough to make a big dent if he struggled. For instance with Jeter, in the Yankees' WS loss to Arizona he notched 62 plate appearances for the entire playoffs and hit .193, largely buoyed by throttling the A's in the ALDS)

Suggesting that clutch hitting doesn't exist as a repeatable skill also doesn't mean that nobody will ever show a hitting profile that suggests them 'rising to the occasion' or whatever. Outliers are a thing that happens in statistical analysis. Good players are going to have moments of doing well in important situations and it's going to give them the reputation of being better in those spots. The issue is that if not enough people are better in those spots, and people in general are not consistently and regularly better or worse in a repeatable fashion, it means that the observed ebbs and flows are

For instance, I may not have situational splits, but a quick bit of napkin math on Jeter's postseason game log shows he went hitless in 9 of 38 career World Series games and had just 1 hit in 19 more. So in 28 of 38 career games in the world series he batted (likely) .250 or worse if we figure an average of 4 plate appearances per game. And then this is offset by those other 10 games where he would go 2/4, 3/5, 4/4 or whatever and push the average up significantly.

And just for a bit of added info, in those 19 1-hit games he had 2 HR and 3 RBIs (obviously only 1 of which was an RBI from a base hit and not him just hitting a solo HR and getting credit for himself). So those times where he only had the one hit it isn't like he was making the most of it (across the 28 1-or-0 hit games he had 11 runs scored. if we take off 2 for the HRs that means he was cashed in by other Yankee hitters 9 times in those 28 games or like 110ish plate appearances. Good for him but the Yankees generally had thunderous offenses and runs scored is not so much indicative of a player's skill as it is the skills of those around him)

basically I'm not saying that clutch performances don't exist nor that nobody's ever seen somebody do something big in a big moment. What does appear to be true is that the ability to rise to the occasion and be clutch when it matters on an ongoing and repeatable basis is more than likely not real. Good players are going to have good stretches which includes good output in big moments sometimes. But it rarely happens with the consistency and predictability to suggest that it's a skill that can be captured and declared repeatable.

I don't have time right now to go back and find the previous post (I was supposed to be backing up the files on my computer because I'm starting to get some curious behavior from its hard drive that's making me give it side-eye but instead I've been down the rabbit hole on this issue and now it's 3pm and I have to go make dinner in like an hour and a bit) but I'm fairly certain I previously linked to a bunch of studies that were conducted on the concept of clutch performance and found that there's not enough evidence to draw a strong conclusion in favor of its existence.


EDIT: One quick link that went in on clutch hitting (using regular season performance):


It's a ton of math, much of which can be difficult to decipher if you're not familiar with some mildly obscure metrics on run creation and win probability, but the gist of it is that using a variety of measures to examine clutchness, they found some curiously noisy results including what I wanted to highlight:

based on the criteria set, David Ortiz was in the top 5% most clutch players in MLB twice (2005 and 2006) and in the bottom 5% 3 times (2007, 2011, 2013). Tony Gwynn (4 top performances, 2 bottom), Joe Morgan (3 top, 2 bottom), Frank Robinson (2 top, 3 bottom), Pete Rose (3 top, 2 bottom) and Larry Walker (2 top, 2 bottom) were also among a group of players that appeared at both the very top and very bottom of their leaderboards multiple times each across their careers. And in most cases the appearances do not line up in a way to plot a trajectory (starting good and getting worse or starting bad and getting better) and instead are simply all over the place at random. The conclusion of their research is that players can be clutch, but they are rarely if ever repeatably clutch (or unclutch) over the course of their whole careers.

This was exhausting to read, do you have a day job/wife?
 
This team doesn’t deserve to be in a playoff spot right now.
I get you. Its frustrating for sure. But who does? We have the 5th best record and only game behind Houston. 4.5 behind Texas.

Toronto fans expect the best i agree but were still in there. Better then the far majority.

I swear though. Jays hitting coach must have a good hookup on this team. Dont know how he's survived this long.
 
A 4th outfielder upgrade isn't moving the needle in terms of the overall RISP issues. It's an overall team mental block right now combined with some really bad luck - ie. today Springer on a 14-27 roll in a key spot gets rung up on an obvious ball.

I don't see how they're 'settling'. Gausman and Chapman are two of the biggest impact acquisitions any GM in baseball has made in the last couple years. Berrios they moved 2 of their top 5 prospects at the time for. Varsho has been disappointing but that was a big-time swing for the fences moving their #1 prospect. Like, what exactly are you expecting here? I don't think you'll find another MLB team who has made that many impact acquisitions/high value trades in the last 2 years.
He settles.

A few years ago it was an unreliable starting pitching staff.

Then it was an unreliable bullpen and defense.

And now it’s a hitting lineup without enough power and consistency.

He hasn’t shown that he can bring this team to the next level. They’ve passed the rebuild stage and should be getting better year over year. Instead they’re spinning their wheels because each year has at least one glaringly obvious issue that he settles on and doesn’t address.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jmo89 and LaP
He settles.

A few years ago it was an unreliable starting pitching staff.

Then it was an unreliable bullpen and defense.

And now it’s a hitting lineup without enough power and consistency.

He hasn’t shown that he can bring this team to the next level. They’ve passed the rebuild stage and should be getting better year over year. Instead they’re spinning their wheels because each year has at least one glaringly obvious issue that he settles on and doesn’t address.

How exactly is making 4 impact moves in the last 2 years ‘settling’?

They’ve been one of the most active teams in MLB in improving their roster.

They have great pitching, great defence, and what should be a very deep hitting lineup 1-9 that is putting up really good numbers aside from RISP.

What position should have been upgraded on further last summer?
 
He settles.

A few years ago it was an unreliable starting pitching staff.

Then it was an unreliable bullpen and defense.

And now it’s a hitting lineup without enough power and consistency.

He hasn’t shown that he can bring this team to the next level. They’ve passed the rebuild stage and should be getting better year over year. Instead they’re spinning their wheels because each year has at least one glaringly obvious issue that he settles on and doesn’t address.
Imagine this pitching staff with 2015 offense.
 
This was exhausting to read, do you have a day job/wife?

Really? If you didn't care to read it you could've just, I don't know, not read it?

Does it make you feel good to insult people for no real reason? Seems like that choice says more about you than mocking my desire to talk about something I enjoy says about me.
 
How exactly is making 4 impact moves in the last 2 years ‘settling’?

They’ve been one of the most active teams in MLB in improving their roster.

They have great pitching, great defence, and what should be a very deep hitting lineup 1-9 that is putting up really good numbers aside from RISP.

What position should have been upgraded on further last summer?
Some people were worried about the offense coming into the season after the offseason moves. It was something that could have, and quite frankly probably should have, been foreseen by management. A lot of posters here suggested they needed another bat.

You’re missing my point I think. It’s not that he doesn’t make big moves; it’s that he leaves obvious holes in the roster and settles because he thinks that the rest of it should be “good enough.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad