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Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v5 | Wed, June 7 | vs HOU | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Blanco vs Bassitt

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TheBeastCoast said:
He has to be in and around the conversation for being the best free agent signing in Jays history at this point I would imagine.
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Eh, Roger Clemens and Paul Molitor were pretty good so he has a ways to go yet.

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A question I've always had :

If a pitcher retires all 27 batters in a row but an error is charged on a dropped foul pop-up like that, is it considered a perfect game?
 
MS said:
Eh, Roger Clemens and Paul Molitor were pretty good so he has a ways to go yet.
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Clemens is the one I had in mind that is likely still above him at the moment, but by the end of the contract I am pretty confident Gausman will be considered the best free agent signing we have ever had. He has already passed Molitor in my opinion. I am also factoring in the value of the contract. He is like significantly underpaid on his deal right now.
 
MS said:
Eh, Roger Clemens and Paul Molitor were pretty good so he has a ways to go yet.

___________

A question I've always had :

If a pitcher retires all 27 batters in a row but an error is charged on a dropped foul pop-up like that, is it considered a perfect game?
Click to expand...

Yeah, Clemens had one of the best two-year stretches any pitcher has ever had when he was here. Gausman will get an extra three years and hopefully be able to add some playoff appearances Clemens didn't get, but still a long way to go...
 
Gausman will probably beat out Clemens in time because while the latter was absolutely dominant with the Jays he only stuck around for two years.

God this team has wasted so much talent since the world series wins. one of the most dominant stretches out of a pitcher ever, Halladay, the beginning of the Wells/Rios era, Bautista to an extent, etc.
 
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TheBeastCoast said:
Clemens is the one I had in mind that is likely still above him at the moment, but by the end of the contract I am pretty confident Gausman will be considered the best free agent signing we have ever had. He has already passed Molitor in my opinion. I am also factoring in the value of the contract. He is like significantly underpaid on his deal right now.
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I don't know, in Molitor's first year he had wRC+ of 144, finished 2nd in MVP voting (ahead of Olerud, who was WAY better, but whatever) and added a World Series MVP.

Blitzkrug said:
Gausman will probably beat out Clemens in time because while the latter was absolutely dominant with the Jays he only stuck around for two years.

God this team has wasted so much talent since the world series wins. one of the most dominant stretches out of a pitcher ever, Halladay, the beginning of the Wells/Rios era, Bautista to an extent, etc.
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Delgado, too. They've pretty much always had a superstar to build around, but they rarely managed to actually build around him. (Though some of those Delgado-era teams had a ton of talent.)
 
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MS said:
Eh, Roger Clemens and Paul Molitor were pretty good so he has a ways to go yet.

___________

A question I've always had :

If a pitcher retires all 27 batters in a row but an error is charged on a dropped foul pop-up like that, is it considered a perfect game?
Click to expand...

Clemens is like the ultimate best FA signing ever but gotta keep in mind that he was on the juice for at least one of those years
 
Blitzkrug said:
Gausman will probably beat out Clemens in time because while the latter was absolutely dominant with the Jays he only stuck around for two years.

God this team has wasted so much talent since the world series wins. one of the most dominant stretches out of a pitcher ever, Halladay, the beginning of the Wells/Rios era, Bautista to an extent, etc.
Click to expand...

Yeah sure Clemons was on the juice but back to back triple crown years for a pitcher? Amazing.
Even before we won the world series, we wasted the George Bell/Lloyd Mosbey/Jesse Barfield era as well.
 
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Discoverer said:
I don't know, in Molitor's first year he had wRC+ of 144, finished 2nd in MVP voting (ahead of Olerud, who was WAY better, but whatever) and added a World Series MVP.


Delgado, too. They've pretty much always had a superstar to build around, but they rarely managed to actually build around him. (Though some of those Delgado-era teams had a ton of talent.)
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f*** how could i forget Delgado? He was my guy growing up.

It hurt, and then it hurt to watch him go to the Mets, get the closest he ever got to an actual shot at the dance only for them to lose to the Cardinals because David Eckstein decided to not suck for once in his god damn life.
 
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Discoverer said:
I don't know, in Molitor's first year he had wRC+ of 144, finished 2nd in MVP voting (ahead of Olerud, who was WAY better, but whatever) and added a World Series MVP.


Delgado, too. They've pretty much always had a superstar to build around, but they rarely managed to actually build around him. (Though some of those Delgado-era teams had a ton of talent.)
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Molitor in 3 season with the Jays had 9.2 WAR. After his second season Gausman is looking to fall anywhere in the 11 and 12 win range. With another 3 seasons left on a value contract.
 
Blitzkrug said:
f*** how could i forget Delgado? He was my guy growing up.

It hurt, and then it hurt to watch him go to the Mets, get the closest he ever got to an actual shot at the dance only for them to lose to the Cardinals because David Eckstein decided to not suck for once in his god damn life.
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Obviously I would have preferred he stay in Toronto his whole career, but I already had a soft spot for the Mets since I followed them closely when Olerud (my first favourite growing up) went there.

TheBeastCoast said:
Molitor in 3 season with the Jays had 9.2 WAR. After his second season Gausman is looking to fall anywhere in the 11 and 12 win range. With another 3 seasons left on a value contract.
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If we're looking at pure production, then sure, I'm on board with that. But the value Molitor had on that '93 team was crazy. I think Gausman will need a few more WAR before he reaches the value of WS MVP.
 
Bautista has to be on that list of all time best pickups just for the ridiculous expected contribution to return on investment.

Literal nobody on his way out of the bigs brought in as a whatever move ends up putting up over 35 fWAR after he decided to become a demigod at the plate. Got him on a relatively sweet deal too once he broke out. And once again was largely wasted though he got closer to the big time than any other Jay has since 1993.
 
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Blitzkrug said:
Sure he is. And i'm allowed to call him a clown for his views.
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As he is to call you one for yours. My point stands it's not a reason to boo him.

MK78 said:
Some really good discussion about Manoah on Blair & Barker... some people rag at this show, but I absolutely love it. One of the best remaining shows on the Fan590/Sportsnet.
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I love their show. I listen all the time
 
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TheBeastCoast said:
Molitor in 3 season with the Jays had 9.2 WAR. After his second season Gausman is looking to fall anywhere in the 11 and 12 win range. With another 3 seasons left on a value contract.
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In fWAR which is considered the more unreliable pitcher measurements. He’ll be at probably 8-9 bWAR.

Molitor hit .430 in the 1993 playoffs to basically win the team a WS on top of a monster regular season. And then was even better the next year before it was cancelled. If Gausman has a huge playoffs this year maybe he’s in the discussion with Molitor but not yet.
 
MS said:
In fWAR which is considered the more unreliable pitcher measurements. He’ll be at probably 8-9 bWAR.

Molitor hit .430 in the 1993 playoffs to basically win the team a WS on top of a monster regular season. And then was even better the next year before it was cancelled. If Gausman has a huge playoffs this year maybe he’s in the discussion with Molitor but not yet.
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I don't think fWAR is more unreliable it is just calculated differently and is trying to show a different picture then bWAR. bWAR is essentially what happened on the field without context added. fWAR uses FIP so it takes into account how a pitcher would/should do with an average amount of luck and takes out things that are out of a pitchers control. Which kind of matches the eye test for Gausman last year, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball while having some of the worst luck of any pitcher in baseball. So fWAR and bWAR both showed that to be the case.
 
TheBeastCoast said:
I don't think fWAR is more unreliable it is just calculated differently and is trying to show a different picture then bWAR. bWAR is essentially what happened on the field without context added. fWAR uses FIP so it takes into account how a pitcher would/should do with an average amount of luck and takes out things that are out of a pitchers control. Which kind of matches the eye test for Gausman last year, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball while having some of the worst luck of any pitcher in baseball. So fWAR and bWAR both showed that to be the case.
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I hugely prefer calculating WAR based on actual results and not theoretical ones, especially given the way that guys like Bassitt (and Dave Stieb, as another example) could consistently significantly out-perform their FIP. FIP is not even remotely a perfect indicator of performance.
 
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