Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v5 | Wed, June 7 | vs HOU | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Blanco vs Bassitt

[The Nemesis]

Don't go too hard on the DFA comments. I assume people don't realize sending down/DFA are different things in baseball given that aspect of contracts is...kinda confusing compared to other sports.

People saying DFA probably just mean send him down, or at least i hope.

Everything has something confusing like that. Like how it's 2023 and people still think two-way contracts in hockey are about the ability to send a guy to the minors and not simply that they have different NHL and AHL salaries.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Everything has something confusing like that. Like how it's 2023 and people still think two-way contracts in hockey are about the ability to send a guy to the minors and not simply that they have different NHL and AHL salaries.

I uh...yup, totally knew that!

(Something i never really paid attention to tbf)

A guy who was 3rd in Cy Young voting doesn't get pulled from the rotation because he has 10 starts with an ERA of 5.00. On this or any team. Have the Yankees dropped Nestor Cortes?

Things have now escalated in the past few starts so they probably have to do something, but there was no way he was getting pulled from the rotation any earlier than this.

I'm not saying he should have been yanked after 10 starts but after the last couple they should have at least looked at their farm system and went "y'know, we might need a bit of depth here"

As someone else said, even if Manoah wasn't terrible and then someone else gets hurt they're in the same situation.

 

[The Nemesis]

side note that if the flaming continues penalties will get harsher. I got kind of lax in letting it go because people are frustrated but while it's perfectly acceptable to call out shit takes, it can't get into petty personal insults and name-calling

I uh...yup, totally knew that!

Yeah, it's confusing because there's a lot of overlap. The guys that are only good enough to get two-way deals are also the ones most likely to be shuttled up and down from the minors. But whether or not you are waiver exempt is an entirely separate matter from having a two-way contract. All the two-way thing determines is whether you still get your NHL salary if you have a separate salary figure for your time in the AHL (or, again, wherever)

 

[shaner8989]

This is on the organization.

I completely understand trying to let your guy work through it. Manoah has essentially been money since his initial callup in 2021. And he's a super confident guy so if he gets shelled constantly, not necessarily a big deal.

If it was one bad month? Sure, even the best of the best shit themselves occasionally but this has gone on for three months with almost no signs of improvement. He had what, the one good start in the Bronx? The fact they let this drag on for so long without even bothering to maybe try and find depth just in case is ridiculous. Trent Thornton and Thomas Hatch are trash, those guys should have been gone in favor of names that might actually be able to contribute.

Now you're stuck in a situation where you HAVE to do something and have no card to play. ridiculous.

Omgggg. We agree. Call it a day. I’m done on here.

I’d fire every moron in this organization tonight. The fact that we don’t even have someone to bring up is truly disgusting. Add this to the Moreno trade and just fire everyone.

 

[The Nemesis]

I don't want to alarm anyone, but the last month of Cavan Biggio:

.241 avg / .371 OBP / .854 OPS
141 wRC+
.241 ISO
25.7% K rate
14.3% BB rate

 

[MS]

I uh...yup, totally knew that!


I'm not saying he should have been yanked after 10 starts but after the last couple they should have at least looked at their farm system and went "y'know, we might need a bit of depth here"

As someone else said, even if Manoah wasn't terrible and then someone else gets hurt they're in the same situation.

Oh, I absolutely agree that the starting depth isn't good enough and they need to be doing something there. They've been quite lucky to go 60 games with their 5 guys starting every game.

To be fair, though, I don't think anyone expected Zach Thompson and Mitch White to be this horrific in AAA when they've looked like passable depth starter options in the past.

I just don't think anything was specifically wrong with how Manoah has been handled. His first 10 or so starts weren't good, but they weren't anywhere near bad enough that you move someone with his pedigree from the rotation. Now he appears to have just mentally collapsed and things have escalated.

 

[mikeyz]

Don’t think you know what DFA means

Yeah. I thought designate for assignment and demote to the Bisons were the same thing.

 

[MK78]

A guy who was 3rd in Cy Young voting doesn't get pulled from the rotation because he has 10 starts with an ERA of 5.00. On this or any team. Have the Yankees dropped Nestor Cortes?

Things have now escalated in the past few starts so they probably have to do something, but there was no way he was getting pulled from the rotation any earlier than this.

A successful veteran pitcher may get that benefit of the doubt. Manoah is only in his 2nd full season, still a young pup.

The signs were there in spring training that something wasnt right, the velocity was down significantly, and his slider wasn't working.

 

[canucksfan]

My prediction, Francis gets called up and Thornton DFA’D

 

[shaner8989]

Springer not even running down the line is a joke. I’d pull him from the game. f*** off.

 

[Blitzkrug]

side note that if the flaming continues penalties will get harsher.




Yeah, it's confusing because there's a lot of overlap. The guys that are only good enough to get two-way deals are also the ones most likely to be shuttled up and down from the minors. But whether or not you are waiver exempt is an entirely separate matter from having a two-way contract. All the two-way thing determines is whether you still get your NHL salary if you have a separate salary figure for your time in the AHL (or, again, wherever)

This makes a ton of sense actually. I always assumed the two way deal was essentially what you said here without realizing there might actually be another point to it.

 

[EpochLink]

Manoah has been ass water all year.

Mechanics are off, confidence is way off.
I mean, I’m sure the coaching staff is aware of it but damn what the hell!?

 

[frizzer1]

Yeah the lack of depth at the minors is truly a bad mark on the management.

What if he didn't stink, and was just injured? Same result.

Jays have been the only team thru the first 2 months that did not have a starting pitcher injury, although Manoah might as well be, he's giving them nothing.

What’s up with their drafting and developing?
No prospects?
What’s going on?

 

[canucksfan]

What’s up with their drafting and developing?
No prospects?
What’s going on?

Development of positional players has been very good. Pitchers have been awful. That seems that it’s better though with talent at lower levels. The problem it’s at the lower levels so they aren’t coming up now.

 

[mikeyz]

He has options, you don't need to DFA him. Because implosion or not, if the team DFA'd him someone would pounce on him in a sec and he'd be gone. This isn't a Zach Plesac situation where Cleveland DFA'd him because he's been crap for multiple years and is also an immature man-baby that's twice hurt himself because he lost his temper.

Yeah. It's like I was saying earlier, I thought DFA and sending him down to Buffalo were the same thing.

Don’t think you know what DFA means

Yes. I'm not going to lie I didn't. I thought it meant being sent down to Buffalo.

 

[The Nemesis]

Yeah. I thought designate for assignment and demote to the Bisons were the same thing.

Both are demotions. The difference is whether or not the player has "options" that allow them to be sent down without passing through waivers (it's as touch more complicated but generally any player coming up gets 3 "option years". If you send a guy down with options left then you can do so multiple times within that season without penalty, but it burns 1 of his option years. So basically you get 3 years in their career (up to a point, I think) where you can choose to be able to send a guy down without consequence.

Once a guy is out of options sending him down requires the DFA process whereby you also take the guy off the 40-man roster. But the catch is that DFAing a guy means you must pass him through waivers first. If he gets claimed he's gone. If he doesn't then he has the choice of either 1) accepting the assignment, be removed from the 40-man roster, and report to the appropriate minor league club or 2) electing for free agency and be able to then determine his own fate.

DFAing is basically protection for players to stop teams from just hoarding veteran MLB talent and stuffing them in the minors while preventing them from pursuing a job at the MLB level that they've legit earned (if they want it).

 

[Blitzkrug]

What’s up with their drafting and developing?
No prospects?
What’s going on?

They have prospects. They also shipped out quite a few guys for win now upgrades;

Groshans, Moreno, Austin Martin and Simeon Woods-Richardson were all guys who people thought had MLB pedigree but they all got moved. They have the next wave of guys in Martinez, Barger, Horowitz, Tiedemann as well.

They're just in a weird spot where they're kinda in between where they have guys in the pipeline, but no pitcher that can step up now and help. Usually you have a couple depth arms in the minors but the one guy they have down there that could theoretically step in has also been trash.

 

[MS]

A successful veteran pitcher may get that benefit of the doubt. Manoah is only in his 2nd full season, still a young pup.

The signs were there in spring training that something wasnt right, the velocity was down significantly, and his slider wasn't working.

A guy who has been as good as Manoah will get the benefit of the doubt. Manoah had the same WAR last year than Nestor Cortes has had in his career.

I'm sure they've been working hard on his mechanics trying to fix things. But there was no way he was getting pulled after 10 stats with a 5.00 ERA.

 

[Forgotusername]

Jackson is providing some much need relief.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

already better than manoah?

 

[Blitzkrug]

Jackson has been alright in the admittedly small sample size. Shame he probably has to go back to the minors regardless.

 

[trellaine201]

Has the game started?

 

[canucksfan]

Jackson was solid

 

[Anthrax442]

Man.. whats going on with Manoah?

 

[phillipmike]

I have a feeling this game is far from over. I think Houston lost a lot of its allure this year.