Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v11 | Wed, Sept 21 | @ NYY | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Berrios vs Cole

[MS]

Schneider using a .720 OPS hitter to pinch hit for a .880 ops hitter was another stroke of genious from our brilliant manager.

It was a really great decision to put our limited window championship contender team into the hands of a rookie manager.

Horwitz has a .533 OPS and 1 career hit against LHP compared to Whit’s .752.

Every manager in history makes that move. The stuff Schneider gets criticized for is absurd.

 

[canucksfan]

My post lacked some clarity in part because I erroneously mentioned Buffalo. The first minors stint that began June 6th should have begun earlier and should have lasted much longer. He did not show enough in his minor league appearances that indicated he got back over the hump before the call-up to face the Tigers.

I don’t think it’s too controversial on my part to both believe Manoah is a loser, as you and others have stated succinctly, and the organization lacks meaningful leadership and accountability.

Part of the problem is they didn't have a replacement. That's their fault because the development of pitchers has been an issue. Let's say if Tiedemann wasn't injured and was in AAA and doing very well I think they would have sent Alek down earlier. However, the options were bullpen days, not really an option, stretching out Richards which wouldn't have worked, and the most realistic option, using Francis as a starter.

When Manoah got sent down on his first stint there were rumors he was pissed so I think this happens regardless.

 

[MK78]

Part of the problem is they didn't have a replacement. That's their fault because the development of pitchers has been an issue. Let's say if Tiedemann wasn't injured and was in AAA and doing very well I think they would have sent Alek down earlier. However, the options were bullpen days, not really an option, stretching out Richards which wouldn't have worked, and the most realistic option, using Francis as a starter.

When Manoah got sent down on his first stint there were rumors he was pissed so I think this happens regardless.

So they had one arm in AAA that was remotely good to start for the Jays? Your only backup plan was a guy that has never thrown a single pitch in the show?

I don't claim to know the Buffalo roster at the time, but was there not another starter that had started a game or three in the MLB before?

Manoah was a guaranteed loss every 5 days. How bad would anyone from AAA have been, if it meant sending Manoah down for at least two full months so he could have at least worked on something, for a possible september callup.

 

[canucksfan]

So they had one arm in AAA that was remotely good to start for the Jays? Your only backup plan was a guy that has never thrown a single pitch in the show?

I don't claim to know the Buffalo roster at the time, but was there not another starter that had started a game or three in the MLB before?

Manoah was a guaranteed loss every 5 days. How bad would anyone from AAA have been, if it meant sending Manoah down for at least two full months so he could have at least worked on something, for a possible september callup.

Options were Zack Thompson and Bowden Francis. Thompson likely does the same or worse than Manoah. Francis might have done well but for some reason, they didn't want to try it out which to me is puzzling.

As I have said previously, the organization has had a bad stretch of developing starting pitchers. That looks like it is changing though but those players are at AA or lower.

 

[MS]

If anything they were too soft on Manoah and gave him too much rope, and I don’t know how that could be construed as having caused the situation now.

 

[MK78]

Options were Zack Thompson and Bowden Francis. Thompson likely does the same or worse than Manoah. Francis might have done well but for some reason, they didn't want to try it out which to me is puzzling.

As I have said previously, the organization has had a bad stretch of developing starting pitchers. That looks like it is changing though but those players are at AA or lower.

Yeah Francis looked decent when called up so i dont know why they didnt wanna stretch him a little.

I remember there was a highly touted pitcher they drafted that refused to sign, though it was before Shatkins regime I think.

 

[Kurtz]

Horwitz has a .533 OPS and 1 career hit against LHP compared to Whit’s .752.

Every manager in history makes that move. The stuff Schneider gets criticized for is absurd.

You're using his 5 at bat sample for this? 5 at bat sample in which he has a higher on-base against lefties than Merrifield this year?

Do you work for the Jays analytics team by any chance?

 

[canucksfan]

You're using his 5 at bat sample for this? 5 at bat sample in which he has a higher on-base against lefties than Merrifield this year?

Do you work for the Jays analytics team by any chance?

In AAA this year Horwitz had a .691 OPS vs. LHP. Either way, I am likely letting him hit over a slightly injured and slumping Whit Merrifield.

 

[MS]

You're using his 5 at bat sample for this? 5 at bat sample in which he has a higher on-base against lefties than Merrifield this year?

Do you work for the Jays analytics team by any chance?

You’re using a 25 AB size so pot kettle black.

No manager ever is going to let a LH rookie with no track record of being able to hit LH pitching face Aroldis Chapman when you have an established quality RH MLB hitter on the bench.

It’s ridiculous criticism.

 

[Kurtz]

You’re using a 25 AB size so pot kettle black.

No manager ever is going to let a LH rookie with no track record of being able to hit LH pitching face Aroldis Chapman when you have an established quality RH MLB hitter on the bench.

It’s ridiculous criticism.

Whit hasn't hit the ball since July. Using him as a pinch-hitter in any situation right now makes no sense. Spencer is giving you good at-bats right now, pitchers don't have a book on him yet, let him swing.

 

[DFF]

Manoah will be fine after he run out of money to eat

Last year, loaded with offensive potential

This year……

 

[MS]

Whit hasn't hit the ball since July. Using him as a pinch-hitter in any situation right now makes no sense. Spencer is giving you good at-bats right now, pitchers don't have a book on him yet, let him swing.

Put any of the 30 managers in MLB in charge of that situation and they all make the same move.

Horwitz has a sub-.700 OPS against LHP in AAA. Nobody is giving him high-leverage ABs against a guy like Chapman.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Whit hasn't hit the ball since July. Using him as a pinch-hitter in any situation right now makes no sense. Spencer is giving you good at-bats right now, pitchers don't have a book on him yet, let him swing.

Yeah I'll take my chances with Horwitz over someone who has been the definition of a black hole in his last 150 PA

If someone better was coming in, I would've understood the decision.

 

[canucksfan]

Whit hasn't hit the ball since July. Using him as a pinch-hitter in any situation right now makes no sense. Spencer is giving you good at-bats right now, pitchers don't have a book on him yet, let him swing.

Additionally, he was scratched because he is dealing with a hip issue.

 

[Kurtz]

Yeah I'll take my chances with Horwitz over someone who has been the definition of a black hole in his last 150 PA

If someone better was coming in, I would've understood the decision.

Not to mention that Whit has struggled with power pitchers his entire career, and especially this season. One would expect a competent manager to know this.

Really Mr. Burns - level managing from Schneider on this one.

 

[canucksfan]

Not to mention that Whit has struggled with power pitchers his entire career, and especially this season. One would expect a competent manager to know this.

Really Mr. Burns - level managing from Schneider on this one.

I do agree with you but I believe most managers let Whit hit. Managers go with experience over a rookie especially one with a lefty lefty matchup.

 

[MS]

In AAA this year Horwitz had a .691 OPS vs. LHP. Either way, I am likely letting him hit over a slightly injured and slumping Whit Merrifield.

That probably projects to being a .600 OPS guy in MLB. This isn’t a Davis Schneider who has equal splits. He’s flat-out bad against LHP.

But more than that, it’s just naive to how sports works. There is no manager in the history of time who leaves a veteran All-Star on the bench to let a rookie with bad splits take that critical AB late in a game with playoff implications. Take any manager in MLB and they all make the exact same decision.

Fans always want to bench quality veteran players when they have a bad couple weeks and it just isn’t how it works. Guys always have ebbs and flows and they’re going to be allowed to play their way out of slumps.

 

[Kurtz]

That probably projects to being a .600 OPS guy in MLB. This isn’t a Davis Schneider who has equal splits. He’s flat-out bad against LHP.

But more than that, it’s just naive to how sports works. There is no manager in the history of time who leaves a veteran All-Star on the bench to let a rookie with bad splits take that critical AB late in a game with playoff implications. Take any manager in MLB and they all make the exact same decision.

Fans always want to bench quality veteran players when they have a bad couple weeks and it just isn’t how it works. Guys always have ebbs and flows and they’re going to be allowed to play their way out of slumps.

Calling Whit an all-star is as fatuous as calling Espinal one. The facts have been laid out for you - Whit has been ice cold for a month and a half, he's hurt and he's never hit power pitchers well, let alone this year. What you're countering with is pure conjecture that's unprovable.

Given all of the facts in front of us, it was a terrible decision, and conjecturing that better, more experienced managers would have made the same mistake is not a counter-argument that absolves Schneider.

As Seath mentioned - if a better pinch hitter was available and used, the move would have been easier to rationalize.

 

[MS]

Calling Whit an all-star is as fatuous as calling Espinal one. The facts have been laid out for you - Whit has been ice cold for a month and a half, he's hurt and he's never hit power pitchers well, let alone this year. What you're countering with is pure conjecture that's unprovable.

Given all of the facts in front of us, it was a terrible decision, and conjecturing that better, more experienced managers would have made the same mistake is not a counter-argument that absolves Schneider.

As Seath mentioned - if a better pinch hitter was available and used, the move would have been easier to rationalize.

The 'ice cold since July' stuff is nonsense.

He had a .781 OPS on July 31. He still had a .781 OPS on August 15. He then had a 10-game slump between August 16-27 where he went 5-42. It happens. Every player has a couple of these runs every year. Then he appeared to have played himself out of it and went 9-26 in the Washington/Colorado series with a hit in every game. Then he had a very bad series against Oakland.

Horwitz can't even hit lefties in AAA, much less Aroldis f'ing Chapman in MLB. You can keep arguing until you're blue in the face, but no manager in MLB is letting Horwitz get high-leverage ABs against LHP with a veteran multi-time RH AS on the bench, even if that veteran is in a bit of a slump. It's an absurd thing to get furiously angry about.

In the end, it's one of those things that's a total nothingburger. Neither of those guys was probably going to get a hit off Chapman, and anyone who has watched sports for more than a week should understand that every manager in the history of sport is going to live/die with his trusted veterans.

 

[tmlms13]

So they had one arm in AAA that was remotely good to start for the Jays? Your only backup plan was a guy that has never thrown a single pitch in the show?

I don't claim to know the Buffalo roster at the time, but was there not another starter that had started a game or three in the MLB before?

Manoah was a guaranteed loss every 5 days. How bad would anyone from AAA have been, if it meant sending Manoah down for at least two full months so he could have at least worked on something, for a possible september callup.

Drew Hutchison is still kicking around last I checked

 

[dredeye]

He got told to shave his sideburns and didn't. The lack of class starts with him.

If he can’t keep it clean he’s gotta go lol

 

[al secord]

Coming up Moleman

We're O'l Gil at this point.

 

[Fonzieleaf]

What’s the opposite of “coming up Milhouse”?

Going down Ralph

 

[Fonzieleaf]

Isn't it sad that AAA call-ups are giving the jays the best chance to win rather then the so-called stars?

 

[Nineteen67]

I think most everyone agrees his FCL stint was too short, but also they had no other choice as it was killing the bullpen with the 4 man rotation then a bullpen day.

But that's also an organizational failure for not having enough depth in AAA.

You should always be prepared to use 6-7 starters in a season. They’ve been very lucky this year with their pitching and are still on pace to meet my expectations, but are surprisingly still in the post season race. That’s probably more to do with the rest of AL East than them.