2023 Tank Thread (Mod post Page 60)

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GunnarStahl

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Oct 13, 2020
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Since it seems the Ducks will likely finish bottom 5 this year, I figured we should have a thread for discussing the implications of where the f***s will finish in the standings. As well as what factors could affect where they finish.

Tonight was interesting as all bottom 5 teams earned 2 points sans the Ducks and the Hawks.

Hey Folks,

Want to clear some of the air here, Tank talk is not an issue, please talk tank to your heart’s content here, totally understand how critical it is for that Future Potential Top pick. The issue is posting in the GDT, like you want the team to lose or make posts that you are angry they are winning or won the game, or bashing the team for not tanking.

The main reason is, to respect your fellow members. The GDT is about discussion of the game on a live basis and then post game discussion and opinions. A lot of fans are not rooting for the team to lose, and everyone has their views and opinions towards tanking, and may not want to discuss tanking in the GDT

If you guys have any concerns, feel free to PM me or another mod, and would be happy to explain more in detail.

Thanks!

Leo
 
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HanSolo

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the production of our young talent has not been a concern at all this season. unless you believe the whole "losing culture" BS, im not concerned in any way about this season affecting the kids long term

what is concerning to me is this team drafting 5th or 6th after this historically bad season and missing out on a handful of potential franchise-altering prospects
Pretty much. To an extent. I think a better coaching staff who can actually develop young players could have helped this year not be a waste. I keep saying it but the whole Eakins is a youth development guy is a farce based on the assumption that results in the AHL=good youth development in the NHL. That said I agree that next year is a fresh opportunity to develop these guys, a lot of whom haven't seen NHL ice yet (the defensemen in particular).

Missing out on the top 4 in this draft is going to be brutal. It's what I expect at this point but it's still brutal to think about given how golden the opportunity is and how shit this year was overall.
 

tomd

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As of today, there’s a greater chance of that than picking 5th, and a 71% chance of top 4.
Yes unless the Ducks pass SJ which looks like a real possibility at this point.

I just fundamentally disagree that any moral victories in the last week of the season is worth losing a chance at a top 3-4 pick. That is just a silly premise to me.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
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Yes unless the Ducks pass SJ which looks like a real possibility at this point.

I just fundamentally disagree that any moral victories in the last week of the season is worth losing a chance at a top 3-4 pick. That is just a silly premise to me.
I have a significantly different opinion of this teams chances against the next two teams.

It’s not a moral victory. It’s something that’s actually important for the improvement of the franchise the next few years. More so than Bedard, as McDavid and a number of other 1st overalls have shown, because this isn’t the NBA.

Again, not arguing the frustration and disappointment of the situation, I just think that calling it “sad” that the players are doing exactly what you would want them to be doing when you’re looking at the team instead of a draft pick is not the appropriate adjective. YMMV.
 

Terry Yake

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Aug 5, 2013
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I’m not arguing the draft position (although statistically that’s very unlikely at this point), I was commenting that the term for the veteran leadership playing like veteran leadership shouldn’t be “sad”. Frustrating, annoying, “seriously?”, yeah all of that. But not “sad”. “Sad” would be quitting the way people are asking for.
no it's not sad at all

frustrating? yes. absolutely. especially when it's strome who has been MIA for months until now and henrique who likely would've been dealt had he not gotten hurt
 
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CrazyDuck4u

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Pretty much. To an extent. I think a better coaching staff who can actually develop young players could have helped this year not be a waste. I keep saying it but the whole Eakins is a youth development guy is a farce based on the assumption that results in the AHL=good youth development in the NHL. That said I agree that next year is a fresh opportunity to develop these guys, a lot of whom haven't seen NHL ice yet (the defensemen in particular).

Missing out on the top 4 in this draft is going to be brutal. It's what I expect at this point but it's still brutal to think about given how golden the opportunity is and how shit this year was overall.
Been saying this crap for a while now.. Hes not an NHL coach.. He belongs in the AHL.. Thats it..
 

tomd

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I have a significantly different opinion of this teams chances against the next two teams.

It’s not a moral victory. It’s something that’s actually important for the improvement of the franchise the next few years. More so than Bedard, as McDavid and a number of other 1st overalls have shown, because this isn’t the NBA.

Again, not arguing the frustration and disappointment of the situation, I just think that calling it “sad” that the players are doing exactly what you would want them to be doing when you’re looking at the team instead of a draft pick is not the appropriate adjective. YMMV.
We'll just agree to disagree. Picking 5th or later in this draft is a disaster.
 

HanSolo

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Yes unless the Ducks pass SJ which looks like a real possibility at this point.

I just fundamentally disagree that any moral victories in the last week of the season is worth losing a chance at a top 3-4 pick. That is just a silly premise to me.
Especially this year. I think it's a more nuanced argument if it's, say, the 2022 NHL entry draft where there were no real franchise altering guys available. At least not obvious ones. This year is as golden an opportunity as you're going to get with a top 4 pick. The moral victories, if they even managed to get any, since the last two games are lose-lose (for morale and draft position), are quickly forgotten in a year like this. You reflect back on the whole season and the whole season was a disaster that I'm sure these guys can't wait to forget. A win against Vancouver or LA or both would feel good for that night, maybe a couple days and be quickly forgotten. Where we pick in late June is going to impact the franchise's next 10-15 years.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
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no it's not sad at all

frustrating? yes. absolutely. especially when it's strome who has been MIA for months until now and henrique who likely would've been dealt had he not gotten hurt
Yeah, I’ve been watching him going”really?!?!?!”

I want the Ducks to do some exciting stuff, but I’ve been openly hoping for exciting losses the entire season. Especially against LA. Being in that arena with their fans is insufferable at the best of times.
 

HanSolo

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I have a significantly different opinion of this teams chances against the next two teams.

It’s not a moral victory. It’s something that’s actually important for the improvement of the franchise the next few years. More so than Bedard, as McDavid and a number of other 1st overalls have shown, because this isn’t the NBA.

Again, not arguing the frustration and disappointment of the situation, I just think that calling it “sad” that the players are doing exactly what you would want them to be doing when you’re looking at the team instead of a draft pick is not the appropriate adjective. YMMV.
You didn't finish articulating your thought I don't think. If two more wins is the difference between, say, Carlsson and Benson, what is the benefit of those two wins that accounts for the difference in the quality of prospect?
 

Terry Yake

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Especially this year. I think it's a more nuanced argument if it's, say, the 2022 NHL entry draft where there were no real franchise altering guys available. At least not obvious ones. This year is as golden an opportunity as you're going to get with a top 4 pick. The moral victories, if they even managed to get any, since the last two games are lose-lose (for morale and draft position), are quickly forgotten in a year like this. You reflect back on the whole season and the whole season was a disaster that I'm sure these guys can't wait to forget. A win against Vancouver or LA or both would feel good for that night, maybe a couple days and be quickly forgotten. Where we pick in late June is going to impact the franchise's next 10-15 years.
yeah, i don't recall any tanking talk on this level the past few seasons. this year its a completely different story with a generational talent at #1 and a few other guys right behind him who would be going #1 in any other draft

missing out on that when you had a golden opportunity to nab one of them by being historically bad at the perfect time will really hurt this franchise in the long run. let's hope im wrong
 
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HanSolo

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yeah, i don't recall any tanking talk on this level the past few seasons. this year its a completely different story with a generational talent at #1 and a few other guys right behind him who would be going #1 in any other draft

missing out on that when you had a golden opportunity to nab one of them by being historically bad at the perfect time will really hurt this franchise in the long run. let's hope im wrong
I don't know that it would hurt us necessarily. In my view, Zegras and McTavish are both guys with an 80+ point upside if developed correctly (McTavish needs to find a new gear at this level though, I'll admit) and the roster doesn't suck ass. Throw in some blue chip blueline prospects and we've got the makings of a competitive team.

And then guys like Smith and Benson as the consolation prizes are a lot better than what is typically available at 5 and 6 but they're less of a sure thing. But you never know. Superstars are found outside the top 3. Just not as often.

The flip side of this being a rare occurrence is that we'd normally never be in this position to begin with without some huge luck at the lottery. This kind of top heavy class of four first overall quality talents is an aberration. Not the norm. So I can't really endorse that it would hurt us, if it's an exceptional opportunity to begin with.

But it would be a huge waste of a golden opportunity to end up at 5 and 6. I'd even argue that only having the Michkov option at 4th overall is a significant risk of a wasted pick if he doesn't come over. So I'm still with you that for this year especially, traditional norms of playing for pride and short term happy feels are unilaterally counterproductive to fast tracking the rebuild and making the building of a competitive roster a hell of a lot easier.

Edit: I'm going to try to take a stab at what DVM was talking about above. The aggregate benefit of maintaining a culture of if, not winning, at least playing for personal and team pride and not giving up can still be reclaimed next year, especially under a new coaching staff which can effectively be a blank slate. However you slice it, this is a year the Ducks are going to have to turn a new leaf on. I don't think hanging on and pushing for two more wins is going to make much impact on the culture of a team that needs to wipe the slate clean.
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
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You didn't finish articulating your thought I don't think. If two more wins is the difference between, say, Carlsson and Benson, what is the benefit of those two wins that accounts for the difference in the quality of prospect?
That’s because that was never my argument, and I think that was very well articulated.

My argument is that the veteran leadership being the ones playing well at this point is not “sad”. Getting points in games they should be losing is absolutely frustrating. Losing out on the top 4 guys would be beyond frustrating, and I’m someone who paid for the privilege of sitting there watching this crap in person. I think “disaster” is hyperbole, when the kid at 5 is supposed to be significantly better than anyone on the team, but as I said the other day, when you think you can have a Ferrari, you’re disappointed when you “only” get a Cadillac”

But I want the veterans playing like they care, as opposed to when they get waived. I want the current kids learning how to play with pride. And I want, and expect, them to not get 3 points in the next 2 games. They’ve lost both games against LA, getting outscored 10-4. They’re 0-2-1 against Vancouver, getting outscored 13-8. They currently have a 71% chance of picking top 4, and a larger chance of picking top 3 than 5th. They need 3 points to lose the tiebreaker to San Jose, assuming San Jose loses out. If they win tomorrow, chicken little behavior is appropriate, but not until.

But again, my actual argument was that calling veterans who play like the kind of veterans you want “sad” is an inappropriate adjective. That’s it. The goalposts got shifted all over, but that was my (mostly ignored) point.
 

HanSolo

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That’s because that was never my argument, and I think that was very well articulated.

My argument is that the veteran leadership being the ones playing well at this point is not “sad”. Getting points in games they should be losing is absolutely frustrating. Losing out on the top 4 guys would be beyond frustrating, and I’m someone who paid for the privilege of sitting there watching this crap in person. I think “disaster” is hyperbole, when the kid at 5 is supposed to be significantly better than anyone on the team, but as I said the other day, when you think you can have a Ferrari, you’re disappointed when you “only” get a Cadillac”

But I want the veterans playing like they care, as opposed to when they get waived. I want the current kids learning how to play with pride. And I want, and expect, them to not get 3 points in the next 2 games. They’ve lost both games against LA, getting outscored 10-4. They’re 0-2-1 against Vancouver, getting outscored 13-8. They currently have a 71% chance of picking top 4, and a larger chance of picking top 3 than 5th. They need 3 points to lose the tiebreaker to San Jose, assuming San Jose loses out. If they win tomorrow, chicken little behavior is appropriate, but not until.

But again, my actual argument was that calling veterans who play like the kind of veterans you want “sad” is an inappropriate adjective. That’s it. The goalposts got shifted all over, but that was my (mostly ignored) point.
I see what you're saying and I apologize for misunderstanding. I'll be honest I'm in day 2 of quitting heavy nicotine use so my attentiveness and brain capacity aren't 100%

I like the Ferrari-Caddie analogy.
 

HunterDuck

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Looks like the nhl wants bedard in Chicago, they score a goal that was on a delayed penalty and the linesmen said Minnesota touched it and without review they randomly disallowed the goal, the wild player barely grazed the puck, then Minnesota scored two goals in two minutes late and hawks lose

Who’s to say they don’t want him in Anaheim, based on last night’s ref job?
 

Ducks DVM

sowcufucakky
Jun 6, 2010
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I see what you're saying and I apologize for misunderstanding. I'll be honest I'm in day 2 of quitting heavy nicotine use so my attentiveness and brain capacity aren't 100%

I like the Ferrari-Caddie analogy.
No worries, that’s gotta be brutal, sending you reinforcement and positive thoughts!

I think everyone is on edge. This season has been brutal. I’m choosing to take a glass half full approach because this has been a brutal year for me so far and I don’t want to be internalizing the negativity, but I 110% get why everyone is. This situation is just…yeah.
 
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Hockey Duckie

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Pretty much. To an extent. I think a better coaching staff who can actually develop young players could have helped this year not be a waste. I keep saying it but the whole Eakins is a youth development guy is a farce based on the assumption that results in the AHL=good youth development in the NHL. That said I agree that next year is a fresh opportunity to develop these guys, a lot of whom haven't seen NHL ice yet (the defensemen in particular).

Missing out on the top 4 in this draft is going to be brutal. It's what I expect at this point but it's still brutal to think about given how golden the opportunity is and how shit this year was overall.

It's very odd to say this and complain about the Ducks winning games or earning the loser points with an even crappier roster after the TDL. It kinda defies the logic. Against Arizona, Anaheim was putting in AHL goalie OEE in his first NHL game, Terry didn't fly out to Arizona b/c of baby issue, and we only had 5D to begin the game, but the Ducks still came away with a loser point.

Anaheim has the least Reg Wins, least "Reg + OT" wins, worst GA, and worst GD, but they're the third worst team in points and could surpass the Sharks.

Ducks2021-22Splits
Game SetGPWLOTLPtsPts %.GFGAGDGD/GP
Total8231371476
46.3%​
232271-39
-0.48​
Gm 1 - 3333179741
62.1%​
1049113
0.39​
Gm 34 - 62291016323
39.7%​
76106-30
-1.03​
Gm 63 - 8220412412
30.0%​
5274-22
-1.10​

Game set 1-33: Everyone's healthy, including the Defensive Trio of Lindholm, Manson, and Fowler.
Game set 34-62: Injuries and Covid it. Lindholm missed 2 games, Fowler missed 4, and Manson missed 17 games.
Game 63 is the TDL.

We were fielding three rookie blueliners (Drysdale, Benoit, and Mahura) in Game set 34-62 when at least one of the Defensive Trio fell to injury. The level of play dropped.

The Ducks were 3rd in the Pacific when Verbeek was hired. When Verbeek took over during All-star break, Manson was put on IR and missed 12 games without a replacement. Verbeek sat on his hands during All-Star break rather than to get some help on the blue line to prevent having 50% blueline rookies on the ice.

Ducks2022-23Splits
GamesWLOTLPtsPts PctGFGAGDGD/Game
Total
80​
23​
45​
12​
58​
36.3%​
204​
330​
-126​
-1.58​
1 to 25
25​
6​
16​
3​
15​
30.0%​
63​
105​
-42​
-1.68​
26 to 49
24​
9​
13​
2​
20​
41.7%​
60​
99​
-39​
-1.63​
50 to 62
13​
5​
5​
3​
13​
50.0%​
35​
51​
-16​
-1.23​
63 to 80
18​
3​
11​
4​
10​
27.8%​
46​
75​
-29​
-1.61​

Verbeek never replaced the talents lost in Lindholm, Manson, or Des. The new summer replacement forwards weren't great at defending either in Strome (-29), Vatrano (-28), and Leason (-21). Yet, despite the terrible roster bestowed upon Eakins, there's progression made until the TDL.

For most of time after the TDL, we also were missing Rico until he returned for the Arizona and Colorado games. Rico piled up 3 points (2g, 1a) and a +1 rating since his return. Get talent inserted into the roster and our fortunes change.

I'm indifferent is Eakins stays or goes, but this year's roster was destined to fail on behest of the GM Verbeek. I predicted this would be the outcome as well before the season started.

I'd love to land any of the top-4. I'd still be ecstatic to land a top-6 pick because we're talking top-6 talent in our system b/c last year we went for a safer 3C pick in Gaucher than take a swing at top-6 scoring potentials RW Snuggerud or C Kulich.

I'm not in dire straits about our future that this year's top pick will make or break us. Terry and Z are producing like last year, but with far less talent on the team this year. Z has a new record high in scoring this year with two more games to go. McTavish looks like the real deal and could be 1C permanently next year or the year after. We're that spoiled that we have stars and potential superstars on our roster already. What's missing is a boatload of defensive talent at the NHL level. We were missing Drysdale this whole season (except for 8 games). Fortunately, they're coming soon in spades. LaCombe, Helleson, Andersson (if retained), Zellweger, Hinds, and Mintyukov are all going to be pros next season, 2023-24. The following season, defensemen Luneau, Warren, and Moore (if signed as a junior) will be making their way to the AHL.

Then we also have our own veterans such as Rico being productive yet again and Fowler reaching new production heights. Despite Vatrano's lack of defensive play, he's also hit a new high in scoring.

Any of the top-6 is great! Any of the top-4 is stupendous. Landing Bedard would be the crown jewel. Yet out of the top-6, the only player with NHL defensive acumen today is probably Carlsson, but he's still a year away from the NHL, imo. We're two to three seasons away from making a significant change in direction, which is all dependent on our blueline talent.
 

Hockey Duckie

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Especially this year. I think it's a more nuanced argument if it's, say, the 2022 NHL entry draft where there were no real franchise altering guys available. At least not obvious ones. This year is as golden an opportunity as you're going to get with a top 4 pick. The moral victories, if they even managed to get any, since the last two games are lose-lose (for morale and draft position), are quickly forgotten in a year like this. You reflect back on the whole season and the whole season was a disaster that I'm sure these guys can't wait to forget. A win against Vancouver or LA or both would feel good for that night, maybe a couple days and be quickly forgotten. Where we pick in late June is going to impact the franchise's next 10-15 years.

Strange things have happened. In 2019, we finished 8th and get bumped down to 9th. We land Zegras in the draft. I say we stole the draft with Zegras. In 2020, we finished 5th and get bumped down to 6th. We still end up with a top defenseman in Drysdale, who was poised to break out this season if not for his season ending injury. In 2021, we finished 2nd and get bumped down to 3rd. This whole board was in a ruckus because the top-2 were D Power and C Beniers, everyone after them would be a dud. We pick up McTavish at #3 and he's gonna be a gold as he continues to progress physically.

We really don't know what will happen, especially since it's a draft.

I just have a totally different perception of things. We should have taken the next step to be contenders after witnessing the huge jump in production in 2021-22. Anaheim could have added an extra top-6 forward or two as well as add another shutdown RD from outside the system, which would have given us depth. The Kings did this to end their rebuild in 2021 off-season and went to the playoffs. The Devils and Kraken added talents outside of their org as well to be playoff participants this year. I'm more upset we didn't take that route and went into a reset rebuild.

Manson helped the Avs win a cup last year. Lindholm helped Boston break new regular season records and looks to be favorites to win the cup this year. Anaheim just needed a little more depth to be playoff bound or more, but we're here waiting for a couple more seasons until our blueliners become established in the NHL.
 

70sSanO

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The reality is McDavid hasn’t come close to a cup and he is arguably the best player in the NHL.

Without Makar, McKinnon might still be a 2nd rounder.

Matthews has never even won a series.

I would hate to miss on Bedard, or a top 3, due to meaningless points, but a generational player does not bring a SC lock.

John
 

Hockey Duckie

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Looking at the schedule, if the Kraken win tomorrow, then the Kings' advantage of playing a #2 Central team instead of #1 division team could be in jeopardy.

Kraken: 80 games, 100 pts, 37 reg wins
Kings: 81 games, 102 pts, 36 reg wins ... currently 3rd in Division.

Kings have to win the last game to secure the 3rd division winner in the Pacific. That doesn't bode well for the less talented Ducks, which could be good for the tank.
 
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mighty Stanley Duck

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The reality is McDavid hasn’t come close to a cup and he is arguably the best player in the NHL.

Without Makar, McKinnon might still be a 2nd rounder.


Matthews has never even won a series.

I would hate to miss on Bedard, or a top 3, due to meaningless points, but a generational player does not bring a SC lock.

John
Ok, but imagine Oilers with Eichel. With McDavid they at least have a shot at Cup.

Avs best player and the most important player is MacKinnon WHO IS #1 OVERALL. : )
Of course landing Makar is also important, but Avs were tanking for MacKinnon not Makar...
 
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