HF Habs: 2023 NHL Draft part 2

  • Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
Lol thats not that harsh I just don't like the way he plays. He could still be good. Also one thing no one mentions, he already does play wing 75% of the time in his own end.
The USNTDP help their players develop their creativity, it’s not like scouts were gushing over Hughes’ defensive prowesses back in 2019. The defensive side is the easiest to learn, he will round up his game in college. I’ve seen him play PK this year and looked good at it.

And yes he had the help of Leonard. That’s why i believe Leonard could become a center at the next level too.
 
UseThe USNTDP help their players develop their creativity, it’s not like scouts were gushing over Hughes’ defensive prowesses back in 2019. The defensive side is the easiest to learn, he will round up his game in college. I’ve seen him play PK this year and looked good at it.

And yes he had the help of Leonard. That’s why i believe Leonard could become a center at the next level too.
Yeah you could be right. I wouldn't freak out if we took him or anything. I don't think a team has ever regretted taking the most skilled USNDTP player. But God some of the footage is rough.
 

How many times does he get to the inside
The USNTDP help their players develop their creativity, it’s not like scouts were gushing over Hughes’ defensive prowesses back in 2019. The defensive side is the easiest to learn, he will round up his game in college. I’ve seen him play PK this year and looked good at it.

And yes he had the help of Leonard. That’s why i believe Leonard could become a center at the next level too.
The USNTDP actually hinder their players with the harlem style of play.

Can you name a USDP player that made it to the NHL succesfully and plays the "right" way ? Hughes ? Amazing, but no. Caufield, same. Zegras ? Not that amazing, but same. Boldy? I guess, yeah or is he just 6'2 ?

Beniers is one. There is a very common trend of US players never really developping their "intangibles" or thei 200 foot game, that goes back to pre 2014 moments. The kids are coddled a bit too much, I think.

Heck, I know im preaching against everything I believe in right now, and that kinda hurts, but can you even identify one "winner" drafted in the USDP ? Kessel? Lol. I guess Patty Kane, but he played until 16 and then was really challenged at 17.

Don't mistake this though, I like the US kids and love their skill levels, and I think the USDP does some things right, but I think they don't face enough adversity and that somewhat transpires in the kind of player they become.

Its something i never really thought of actually, but out of all the american forwards, whos "tough" ? Tuch? The Tkachuks (There is somehting to be said about their defensive player here though lol.)

Anyway, I don't necessarily want a tough forward or whatever, Im going off track, but I do want someone that goes balls to the wall for the team, and not a Huberdeau-type floater. Its the Tkachuk/Huberdeau connundrum. Sadly there is no 6'2 spark plug at forward available for the 5th.
 
He's not perfect but after the top 4 there is a clear drop and Smith is the most talented player after those 4 guys.
You can tell this how ? I'd say Cristall is more talented, he's similar hands/Passing wise and absolutely destroys Smith goalscoring wise. I guess being 2 inches taller is a talent difference if were honest. Skating is Cristall by a slight edge. Benson has superior vision, better in tight hands but lesser stickhandling creativity and similar shooting. Skating is also Bensons.

Wood is undoubtedly more talented than Smith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NotProkofievian
If I'm picking a dman at 5 he needs to be dynamic and able to run a PP.
Why? Carolina has a #1D who can't do these things - they got Hamilton to do it, then they got DeAngelo to do it, then they got Burns to do it and have not missed a beat bringing in a guy to run their PP1. It's particularly confusing when we have Matheson on the roster right now plus Hutson in the system as the guy who could fill that role. It's nice if you can get a Hedman type that does it all but it's not particularly hard to find a PP specialist if one is needed. Even still, Tampa used Sergachev as their 1A on the PP over Hedman this year!

We don't expect forwards taken in the top 5 to be PK1 mainstays, why does a dman taken at #5 need to be a PP1 lock?
I just hate that kind of argument. ''Why draft X when you can have a better prospect in the same position next year''?
Yeah I don't really get this stuff. If they think Reinbacher is the guy then just pick him instead of galaxy braining this stuff about next draft. Remember this time last year when 2022 was supposed to be a stacked loaded draft full of C's and guys like Yager were talked about as being in the top tier of guys who would all projects as 1Cs? Well today the "stacked" C draft is looking more like the Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson draft, Michkov with uncertainty, and then a bunch of wingers behind them. Good wingers of course, but the "stacked" draft for Cs hasn't really materialized (and everyone here hates Dvorsky too anyway). What happens when all these future John Carlson's in next year's draft end up looking more like Ty Smiths?

Also...if we pick Reinbacher this year and a defenceman ends up being BPA next year we can always just pick the BPA defenceman next year too. Hutson is exciting but if he's Torey Krug it's not like Guhle, Matheson, and Krug 2.0 is enough. Mailloux is interesting but he's a long term project and currently still a bantam-level defender, Barron looks like a 3-4 leaning toward 4, Xhekaj/Harris are more like 4-5s at best, and it's not like Matheson is going to be here forever. Guhle is the only other guy that looks like he's a top 4 lock going forward who can eat big minutes, we're not in a position where "what if we have to draft TWO good D prospects" should be scary to us even accounting for the Bergevin forward PTSD.

I also think next year's draft being so heavy on defencemen could just as easily give us a chance to steal a good forward since we'll be picking somewhere in the 8-12 range most likely. Every year there's some skilled sub 6'0" NTDP/CHL winger that all the public lists have in the top 6 who drops to the 8-12 range because teams go for bigger Cs and dmen, the draft being full of dmen just makes that even more likely. Sometimes eating your vegetables on a pick like Reinbacher means you can eat candy in the future and take that 5'10 winger with eye popping skill who drops.

Overall I also just hate this framing that Reinbacher is somehow the "safe" pick. He's the higher floor pick but he's also an extremely high upside pick! The upside is a right shot No.1 defenceman with size, skating, physicality, and skill, he's just not gonna play Tiktok hockey and dangle 5 guys in a 6-2 loss in the QMJHL.
 
Last edited:

He is so good. He has been my non-Michkov choice at 5 for quite a while now, but I noticed something else I really like by watching this highlight package. He scores many goals five-hole.

Scoring five-hole is one of the best signs of offensive creativity and in the moment decision making. Especially for players who do not have the quickest wristers. To score five-hole you need to understand the goalie's movements and place the puck against his movement in real time, it really shows puck placement skills. Think about guys like Aho, Stone, McDavid, Crosby who all love to shoot five-hole in tight. Pacioretty was a great one too, but for him it was just because his release was insanely quick, not really because he outsmarts the goalie.

For Benson, you can definitely see how this skill transfers to how he places the puck in open spaces for his teammates with quick passes in tight.

Benson is the type of player who scores 70s and 80s across the boards but has the smarts to make use of 100% of what he has. Compared to Drouin types who scores 90s everywhere but only make efficient use of their skillset 50-60% of the time.
 

Reinbacher is 10th.

He was 20th in the midterm ranking at the end of january. He is not seen like a top 5 pick or the BPA after the ‘’top 4’’

Neither was Seider though. He was picked 6th, but he was outside top 10 on Mac's final list. 4-6 spots is not a big jump. Montreal could take any one of Smith, Dvorsky, Leonard, Benson, or Reinbacher and none would be a reach.

This group is really close in talent and skill, and they're all rather unique too in what they'd bring to a club.
 
Why? Carolina has a #1D who can't do these things - they got Hamilton to do it, then they got DeAngelo to do it, then they got Burns to do it and have not missed a beat bringing in a guy to run their PP1. It's particularly confusing when we have Matheson on the roster right now plus Hutson in the system as the guy who could fill that role. It's nice if you can get a Hedman type that does it all but it's not particularly hard to find a PP specialist if one is needed. Even still, Tampa used Sergachev as their 1A on the PP over Hedman this year!

We don't expect forwards taken in the top 5 to be PK1 mainstays, why does a dman taken at #5 need to be a PP1 lock?

Yeah I don't really get this stuff. If they think Reinbacher is the guy then just pick him instead of galaxy braining this stuff about next draft. Remember this time last year when 2022 was supposed to be a stacked loaded draft full of C's and guys like Yager were talked about as being in the top tier of guys who would all projects as 1Cs? Well today the "stacked" C draft is looking more like the Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson draft, Michkov with uncertainty, and then a bunch of wingers behind them. Good wingers of course, but the "stacked" draft for Cs hasn't really materialized (and everyone here hates Dvorsky too anyway). What happens when all these future John Carlson's in next year's draft end up looking more like Ty Smiths?

Also...if we pick Reinbacher this year and a defenceman ends up being BPA next year we can always just pick the BPA defenceman next year too. Hutson is exciting but if he's Torey Krug it's not like Guhle, Matheson, and Krug 2.0 is enough. Mailloux is interesting but he's a long term project and currently still a bantam-level defender, Barron looks like a 3-4 leaning toward 4, Xhekaj/Harris are more like 4-5s at best, and it's not like Matheson is going to be here forever. Guhle is the only other guy that looks like he's a top 4 lock going forward who can eat big minutes, we're not in a position where "what if we have to draft TWO good D prospects" should be scary to us even accounting for the Bergevin forward PTSD.

I also think next year's draft being so heavy on defencemen could just as easily give us a chance to steal a good forward since we'll be picking somewhere in the 8-12 range most likely. Every year there's some skilled sub 6'0" NTDP/CHL winger that all the public lists have in the top 6 who drops to the 8-12 range because teams go for bigger Cs and dmen, the draft being full of dmen just makes that even more likely. Sometimes eating your vegetables on a pick like Reinbacher means you can eat candy in the future and take that 5'10 winger with eye popping skill who drops.

Overall I also just hate this framing that Reinbacher is somehow the "safe" pick. He's the higher floor pick but he's also an extremely high upside pick! The upside is a right shot No.1 defenceman with size, skating, physicality, and skill, he's just not gonna play Tiktok hockey and dangle 5 guys in a 6-2 loss in the QMJHL.

Amen to JoelWarlord
 
  • Like
Reactions: JoelWarlord
He is so good. He has been my non-Michkov choice at 5 for quite a while now, but I noticed something else I really like by watching this highlight package. He scores many goals five-hole.

Scoring five-hole is one of the best signs of offensive creativity and in the moment decision making. Especially for players who do not have the quickest wristers. To score five-hole you need to understand the goalie's movements and place the puck against his movement in real time, it really shows puck placement skills. Think about guys like Aho, Stone, McDavid, Crosby who all love to shoot five-hole in tight. Pacioretty was a great one too, but for him it was just because his release was insanely quick, not really because he outsmarts the goalie.

For Benson, you can definitely see how this skill transfers to how he places the puck in open spaces for his teammates with quick passes in tight.

Benson is the type of player who scores 70s and 80s across the boards but has the smarts to make use of 100% of what he has. Compared to Drouin types who scores 90s everywhere but only make efficient use of their skillset 50-60% of the time.
Terrific commentary.

BensonBoys we are SO back
 
Yeah I don't really get this stuff. If they think Reinbacher is the guy then just pick him instead of galaxy braining this stuff about next draft. Remember this time last year when 2022 was supposed to be a stacked loaded draft full of C's and guys like Yager were talked about as being in the top tier of guys who would all projects as 1Cs? Well today the "stacked" C draft is looking more like the Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson draft, Michkov with uncertainty, and then a bunch of wingers behind them. Good wingers of course, but the "stacked" draft for Cs hasn't really materialized (and everyone here hates Dvorsky too anyway). What happens when all these future John Carlson's in next year's draft end up looking more like Ty Smiths?

Yager is still #1C potential, what we said last year was true, and what we say about next year is true. It will be much easier to find a good top 4 D next year. There are 30 Ds in the first 2 rounds lol. This year that number was 10.

It's not because YOU see things in higher definition now and have caught up to what the scouts saw 3 years ago that it makes the scouts' early statements wrong. You just don't know the difference between when a scout talks about spreads vs. projections (apparently).
 
How many times does he get to the inside

The USNTDP actually hinder their players with the harlem style of play.

Can you name a USDP player that made it to the NHL succesfully and plays the "right" way ? Hughes ? Amazing, but no. Caufield, same. Zegras ? Not that amazing, but same. Boldy? I guess, yeah or is he just 6'2 ?

Beniers is one. There is a very common trend of US players never really developping their "intangibles" or thei 200 foot game, that goes back to pre 2014 moments. The kids are coddled a bit too much, I think.

Heck, I know im preaching against everything I believe in right now, and that kinda hurts, but can you even identify one "winner" drafted in the USDP ? Kessel? Lol. I guess Patty Kane, but he played until 16 and then was really challenged at 17.

Don't mistake this though, I like the US kids and love their skill levels, and I think the USDP does some things right, but I think they don't face enough adversity and that somewhat transpires in the kind of player they become.

Its something i never really thought of actually, but out of all the american forwards, whos "tough" ? Tuch? The Tkachuks (There is somehting to be said about their defensive player here though lol.)

Anyway, I don't necessarily want a tough forward or whatever, Im going off track, but I do want someone that goes balls to the wall for the team, and not a Huberdeau-type floater. Its the Tkachuk/Huberdeau connundrum. Sadly there is no 6'2 spark plug at forward available for the 5th.
I can’t disagree. They mostly develop highly skilled offensive forward or dman, that’s true.

You obviously probably can’t win with a team full of the same skill but for the habs we don’t have one like Smith.

He’ll also learn to round up his game in college i think.

I can think of Leonard who’s like a blend of skills, 200ft play and some physicality. But yeah he not the typical big ‘’mean’’ forward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mrb1p
How many times does he get to the inside

The USNTDP actually hinder their players with the harlem style of play.

Can you name a USDP player that made it to the NHL succesfully and plays the "right" way ? Hughes ? Amazing, but no. Caufield, same. Zegras ? Not that amazing, but same. Boldy? I guess, yeah or is he just 6'2 ?

Beniers is one. There is a very common trend of US players never really developping their "intangibles" or thei 200 foot game, that goes back to pre 2014 moments. The kids are coddled a bit too much, I think.

Heck, I know im preaching against everything I believe in right now, and that kinda hurts, but can you even identify one "winner" drafted in the USDP ? Kessel? Lol. I guess Patty Kane, but he played until 16 and then was really challenged at 17.

Don't mistake this though, I like the US kids and love their skill levels, and I think the USDP does some things right, but I think they don't face enough adversity and that somewhat transpires in the kind of player they become.

Its something i never really thought of actually, but out of all the american forwards, whos "tough" ? Tuch? The Tkachuks (There is somehting to be said about their defensive player here though lol.)

Anyway, I don't necessarily want a tough forward or whatever, Im going off track, but I do want someone that goes balls to the wall for the team, and not a Huberdeau-type floater. Its the Tkachuk/Huberdeau connundrum. Sadly there is no 6'2 spark plug at forward available for the 5th.
Bro, both Tkachuks played for the USA team so . . . Face it, USA hockey is producing better players than any org. aprt from the OHL and it's only a matter of time until they surpass the OHL as well. More people, more money . . .
 
Bro, both Tkachuks played for the USA team so . . . Face it, USA hockey is producing better players than any org. aprt from the OHL and it's only a matter of time until they surpass the OHL as well. More people, more money . . .

And more ambition. They actually created a program with the only purpose to win gold medals, and we're just watching it happen. Canada would never create a program like the NTDP, or the French academy system. We just don't have it in us. We'd have to get relegated by a country like Slovenia, and even then people would say shit like ''well, soccer is just so popular, look at how well alphonso davies is doing, we'd still win best on best blah blah blah''
 
A team like ours needs a player with his skill and upside -- Huberdeau isn't my ideal hockey player but for the Habs he absolutely is. We need flash and skill. Grind Deez Guys hockey is stale. Will Smith has been compared to Spezza, Huberdeau, and other "soft" skilled players who have dazzled and entertained other fanbases in the last many years. But not ours. He would've gone 1OA last year, just think about that.

Will Smith's downsides are clearly over-stated at this point by the same people and from the same angle of those who think every prospect should be a two-way player who plays a 200ft game and brings his lunchbox to work, etc etc.
hard to ignore his downsides. even you're saying he's soft. not too encouraging. what else can he really do other than scoring? thats what worries me.
 
And more ambition. They actually created a program with the only purpose to win gold medals, and we're just watching it happen. Canada would never create a program like the NTDP, or the French academy system. We just don't have it in us. We'd have to get relegated by a country like Slovenia, and even then people would say shit like ''well, soccer is just so popular, look at how well alphonso davies is doing, we'd still win best on best blah blah blah''
When the goal is to cater to the middle . . .
 
hard to ignore his downsides. even you're saying he's soft. not too encouraging. what else can he really do other than scoring? thats what worries me.
You want a scoring forward to do what else? … Grind?

Why does every prospective Habs prospect have to play like Plekanec?

We’re not picking 1OA, we’re picking 5OA. You’re not going to get a perfect prospect at 5OA, so why not aim for the highest scoring upside as a priority this time??
 
When the goal is to cater to the middle . . .

This is the exact opposite of the problem with hockey development in Canada. The whole system is set up to cater to the interests of rich psycho hockey families that can afford to put their kids in elite high performance camps run by ex-NHLers from the time they're eight years old and drop huge money on travel teams and extra training outside the teams themselves. Hockey development in Canada is slipping because it's all positive feedback loops since even Peewee AAA coaches are running teams to win (and audition for a CHL/Jr. A role and beyond) rather than to develop.

Players that fall behind at 12-14 or even as young as 10 or 11 can get left in the dust and have no chance to catch back up to the guys that developed a bit earlier either due to earlier physical growth or an obsessive training schedule imposed by their parents since they just don't get the playing time. It's even worse with goalies because you have the size obsession on top of that where an early growth spurt can lock an untalented goalie into all the prime development spots over a shorter but better goalie.

Yager is still #1C potential, what we said last year was true, and what we say about next year is true. It will be much easier to find a good top 4 D next year. There are 30 Ds in the first 2 rounds lol. This year that number was 10.
I never said it won't be easier to find a top 4 D next year, I said these things are always overblown a year out. It happens every single year, next year's draft is always the right time because there are 15 potential high-upside picks who haven't shown their warts yet, everybody is a C at 16 and then a bunch of them are wingers at 17, and so on.

Sure, there is a universe where Yager becomes a #1C but at this time last year, people were talking about him being in that top tier after Bedard & Fantilli and now he might not even go in the top 10. Yager was 4th on McKenzie's pre-season list, Cal Ritchie was 6th, Cam Allen was the top dman at 8, while Will Smith was an honourable mention who wasn't even in the top 16. Don't pretend that this draft class today matches the kind of projections and dreams people had last year.

I just think it's foolish to get cute with it and pass on the guy you want based on projections of what a future draft class made up of current 16-17 year old D-1 players will look like as 17-18 year old draft year players next season where you'll then be assessing them based on what you project they'll become as pros age 22-23 and beyond. Yeah of course if you're planning ahead to tank for Bedard that's one thing but otherwise I think this stuff is just overthinking it. If Reinbacher is the guy they want pick Reinbacher, and the same goes for Smith, Benson, or whoever else they might consider. Pick the guy you want instead of trying to fantasy draft a year or two into the future, some of these kids being hyped for the 2024 draft can't even drive a car yet.

It's not because YOU see things in higher definition now and have caught up to what the scouts saw 3 years ago that it makes the scouts' early statements wrong. You just don't know the difference between when a scout talks about spreads vs. projections (apparently).
Just because you put words in my mouth doesn't mean I actually said that. I did not say this draft is not deep at C or F, or that next year's draft will not be deep at D, or that scouts were wrong to say Yager could be a 1C this time last year. I am arguing that these kinds of narratives about a draft class are a silly reason to pass on a guy if you otherwise would want to pick him because so much can change in a year when we're, by definition, talking about players that are 16 and 17 years old. There is just way too much uncertainty between the draft, lottery outcomes, guys not developing the way you'd hope in their draft year after promising D-1 seasons, and uncertainty around where a team's pick will fall to be fretting about picking a D in the forward draft or a forward in the D draft.
 
Last edited:
This is the exact opposite of the problem with hockey development in Canada. The whole system is set up to cater to the interests of rich psycho hockey families that can afford to put their kids in elite high performance camps run by ex-NHLers from the time they're eight years old and drop huge money on travel teams and extra training outside the teams themselves. Hockey development in Canada is slipping because it's all positive feedback loops since even Peewee AAA coaches are running teams to win (and audition for a CHL/Jr. A role and beyond) rather than to develop.

Players that fall behind at 12-14 or even as young as 10 or 11 can get left in the dust and have no chance to catch back up to the guys that developed a bit earlier either due to earlier physical growth or an obsessive training schedule imposed by their parents since they just don't get the playing time. It's even worse with goalies because you have the size obsession on top of that where an early growth spurt can lock an untalented goalie into all the prime development spots over a shorter but better goalie.
As the father of a 15 year old AAA player here in the U.S. I can tell you that it's pretty much the same here. Boys who develop physically and mature at the earlier end of the age spectrum are definitely favored from a very young age. It is dumb and shortsighted but even youth hockey coaches are preoccupied with winning over all else, including skill development.
 
As the father of a 15 year old AAA player here in the U.S. I can tell you that it's pretty much the same here. Boys who develop physically and mature at the earlier end of the age spectrum are definitely favored from a very young age. It is dumb.
Yeah, it makes sense given the incentives for coaches to move up the ranks but I wish we could figure out a way to incentivize youth hockey coaches to prioritize development instead of coaching Peewee AAA like it's the cup finals. At least with American players there's always the option of going the USHL route for a year or two and then taking a long-term view with going to college, a lot of times the same kids in Canada end up playing 5 games in the CHL at 16 and lock themselves out of that path for basically no development benefit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad