2023 Draft Discussion

[Realgud]

Yeah, what might have been if Kindl had turned out!

Imagine a first pairing of Smith-Kindl!

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Imagine a first pairing of Smith-Kindl!

Jurco -Sheahan- Pullkinen
x - Jarnkrok - x

Smith - Kindl
Sproul-Ouellet

The future is looking bright in detroit

 

[Realgud]

Jurco -Sheahan- Pullkinen
x - Jarnkrok - x

Smith - Kindl
Sproul-Ouellet

The future is looking bright in detroit

Add Cholowski and McCollum to the mix and you've got a contender

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Smith actually started out fine and there is a reason he is still hanging on in the league. I will always maintain Babcock ruined him.

The Shanahan proving no bias with the huge suspension also took some of the bite out of his game. But still think the player was there and we messed that up.

 

[norrisnick]

Smith actually started out fine and there is a reason he is still hanging on in the league. I will always maintain Babcock ruined him.

The Shanahan proving no bias with the huge suspension also took some of the bite out of his game. But still think the player was there and we messed that up.

Babcock didn't make Smith stupid. The reason he's stuck is because physically he's decently sized, great skater, and can handle the puck well. He just has no idea what to do. Hence the turnovers, dumb pinches, incorrect D zone coverage and complete lack of awareness so he gets blown up by forecheckers all the time.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Add Cholowski and McCollum to the mix and you've got a contender

Zadina and Svechnikov can fill out those 2nd lines too

 

[RedHawkDown]

Ranking list literally ranks the players from best to worst, at the draft, team needs and more valuable positions comes in play.

Danielson and Perreault for example. Perreault is now 10th and Danielson is 16th but at the draft Danielson rises 5-6 spots easily, and Perreault could fall the same 5-6 spots.

This is what real scouts said about Dvorsky and Benson.



The real scouts considers Dvorsky as a better player than Benson. If Benson "is simply so much better at basically everything" or "he's a first overall type of talent.", then Benson would be in that "super six"-group or then it would be called "super-7".

You can like him as much as you like but he is not better player/talent than Dvorsky.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. Nobody is denying Dvorsky is ranked higher on average. Michael Dal Colle was also ranked higher than Point. People can like Bensons game more and disagree with consensus rankings and it doesn’t mean they’re wrong

 

[Frk It]

Being 6'0 and a fast skater matters. If you count this as being "better", then sure. "Better" to me is only based on hockey talent, but there are more factors than just hockey talent which is why "worse" players get picked before other players, it happens all the time or else Gaudreau wouldn't have been picked in the fourth round or Kotkaniemi 3rd overall. Like, I would pick Honzek ahead of Cristall even though I think Cristall is a better player with more talent but I think it's quite clear why Honzek is ranked ahead and will be picked ahead.

How many players would you have said are “better” players than Larkin in his draft class where he ended up becoming the better player as a pro?

It’s not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it. So many other things matter in the equation.

 

[lilidk]

Getting last year undrafted prospects smart because they are more sure thing, more developed and we going to get 2 or 3 of them.
Excellent first round , make sense to trade up to get 3rd one. Id target Sawchyn.
Make another trade up for extra second round and use it for trade to bring player for main team.
Get bigger and more physical, find smart pest , Bertuzzi type , not Grewe.

 

[norrisnick]

How many players would you have said are “better” players than Larkin in his draft class where he ended up becoming the better player as a pro?

It’s not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it. So many other things matter in the equation.

Bingo. When ranking future NHLers, being a better junior player doesn't always matter. And it's doubly weird in the context of Dvorsky who is an amazing junior player.

Getting last year undrafted prospects smart because they are more sure thing, more developed and we going to get 2 or 3 of them.
Excellent first round , make sense to trade up to get 3rd one. Id target Sawchyn.
Make another trade up for extra second round and use it for trade to bring player for main team.
Get bigger and more physical, find smart pest , Bertuzzi type , not Grewe.

What's the difference between Sawchyn and Grewe?

 

[Realgud]

How many players would you have said are “better” players than Larkin in his draft class where he ended up becoming the better player as a pro?

It’s not nearly as simple as you are trying to make it. So many other things matter in the equation.

Yeah of course, that's what I am saying, it's not easy. There are many factors to take in consideration. Sorry if my post seems to say otherwise. It's much more complicated than looking at McKenzie's list and drawing definite conclusions. Every team will have drastically different draft lists.

 

[lilidk]

Bingo. When ranking future NHLers, being a better junior player doesn't always matter. And it's doubly weird in the context of Dvorsky who is an amazing junior player.


What's the difference between Sawchyn and Grewe?

Brain and skills

 

[Run the Jewels]

Do people view Brayden Yager as a center or wing? I think he could become a 30 goal scorer on wing. His scouting profile doesn't seem to suggest he's a high level playmaker but he has a good, very accurate shot. So I wonder if he ultimately ends up on the wing?

 

[HisNoodliness]

Do people view Brayden Yager as a center or wing? I think he could become a 30 goal scorer on wing. His scouting profile doesn't seem to suggest he's a high level playmaker but he has a good, very accurate shot. So I wonder if he ultimately ends up on the wing?

I think that he could be either. He's reasonably hard-working and understands defense well enough that I think he can handle the responsibilities that a center needs to fulfill. I also agree though that because his offense is going to be most effective in a shooting role, that he'll be more productive as a wing. Pinching off the half-boards for a shot from the circle, or rifling it off the rush are going to be his easiest mechanics for production IMO.

 

[jkutswings]

Do people view Brayden Yager as a center or wing? I think he could become a 30 goal scorer on wing. His scouting profile doesn't seem to suggest he's a high level playmaker but he has a good, very accurate shot. So I wonder if he ultimately ends up on the wing?

I'd think he could be best utilized as a wing paired with a playmaking center, so he could take a lot of shots.

 

[SantosHalper]

Ranking lists do not always list from best to worst, it historically underrates smaller players because they are riskier. This year would be Benson, Cristall, Brindley, Perron...

Among the real scouts, McKenzie only get the input of 10 of them, and furthermore, the scouts get it wrong all the time. Seider wasn't seen as a better player than Turcotte or Dach by "real scouts". Getting hung up on "real scouts" opinions isn't much of an argument... except if Steve and co. have that opinion

I disagree, i don't see ranking's discriminating smaller players. You mentioned Turcotte, he's small and he was ranked higher than Dach, Cozens, Zegras, Podkolzin. Caulfield & Krebs was ranked higher than Boldy, Seider, Broberg.

Benson is top-10 pick, i think he is ranked in the right place. Cristall has too many holes in his package, to not even consider at the 1st round. Brindley is more complete package, but there is just better ones available. Perron is ranked bit too low, i admit that.

And what i've seen from Dvorsky this past 2 years, i agree with those scouts and in this case they are not wrong. Dvorsky is a real deal.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. Nobody is denying Dvorsky is ranked higher on average. Michael Dal Colle was also ranked higher than Point. People can like Bensons game more and disagree with consensus rankings and it doesn’t mean they’re wrong

That who is better player, Dvorsky or Benson. Here's the whole conversation, probably.
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion

People can like Benson, but when they start saying that Benson is better at everything then they are starting to be wrong. When there is real scouts putting him in the same class with the top-5 and what we have seen him do on ice against his age peers. My opinion is that Dvorsky is better player now and in 10 year time.

 

[Realgud]

Do people view Brayden Yager as a center or wing? I think he could become a 30 goal scorer on wing. His scouting profile doesn't seem to suggest he's a high level playmaker but he has a good, very accurate shot. So I wonder if he ultimately ends up on the wing?

He's quite a good 2-way player now. I think he could stick at center but I think his processing and decision-making is so so which is what could ultimately limit his upside at center. He's safer to project as a winger but I think he could be a center if everything goes right. I like when he rushes near the center of ice and takes shots in stride, and I think he can still do this as a winger. He's a very good playmaker now too. It's fun to watch him with Firkus as they're both so dangerous with their shooting so him developing a playmaking side to his game only made sense.

 

[Realgud]

I disagree, i don't see ranking's discriminating smaller players. You mentioned Turcotte, he's small and he was ranked higher than Dach, Cozens, Zegras, Podkolzin. Caulfield & Krebs was ranked higher than Boldy, Seider, Broberg.

Benson is top-10 pick, i think he is ranked in the right place. Cristall has too many holes in his package, to not even consider at the 1st round. Brindley is more complete package, but there is just better ones available. Perron is ranked bit too low, i admit that.

And what i've seen from Dvorsky this past 2 years, i agree with those scouts and in this case they are not wrong. Dvorsky is a real deal.

That who is better player, Dvorsky or Benson. Here's the whole conversation, probably.
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion
2023 Draft Discussion

People can like Benson, but when they start saying that Benson is better at everything then they are starting to be wrong. When there is real scouts putting him in the same class with the top-5 and what we have seen him do on ice against his age peers. My opinion is that Dvorsky is better player now and in 10 year time.

Anyway, I respect your opinion even if I disagree. At least you base it off of what you've seen too instead of only appealing to (a limited) authority so I can always respect that. Only time will tell for now. If Dvorsky ends up being drafted by the Wings when both are available, I'll give you an early victory because as it stands I really trust what they're doing in the first round at least I think Dvorsky's goalscoring instincts are better but overall I stand by what I've said.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Babcock didn't make Smith stupid. The reason he's stuck is because physically he's decently sized, great skater, and can handle the puck well. He just has no idea what to do. Hence the turnovers, dumb pinches, incorrect D zone coverage and complete lack of awareness so he gets blown up by forecheckers all the time.

No what he did was try to turn an aggressive offensive d-man into a mediocre two way dman. Never tried to develop him on the PP and after his initial half a point per game 14 game burst put him in bad offensive situations. Always going to disagree with this you're not going to talk me out of it. The player was there, we couldn't accept some of his flaws to get the good, sort of a hallmark of a lot of Babcock's development philosophies in my opinion.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Smith actually started out fine and there is a reason he is still hanging on in the league. I will always maintain Babcock ruined him.

The Shanahan proving no bias with the huge suspension also took some of the bite out of his game. But still think the player was there and we messed that up.

27th overall pick, 26th in his draft class in terms of NHL games played as well. Returned us a ‘17 3rd and the ‘18 2nd that landed Berggren.

Pretty good career for a late first round pick imo, and I definitely agree with you that there was the mold of big, mobile probably second pairing defender there with more cohesive development.

 

[norrisnick]

No what he did was try to turn an aggressive offensive d-man into a mediocre two way dman. Never tried to develop him on the PP and after his initial half a point per game 14 game burst put him in bad offensive situations. Always going to disagree with this you're not going to talk me out of it. The player was there, we couldn't accept some of his flaws to get the good, sort of a hallmark of a lot of Babcock's development philosophies in my opinion.

I'm sure maybe deployment was part of it, but at the heart of it, Smith is just dumb. He's never learned from any of his mistakes because watching NJ games he's still making them.

 

[DamonDRW]

Sproul-Ouellet

I seriously believed those two guys would form our 1st pairing D line...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

27th overall pick, 26th in his draft class in terms of NHL games played as well. Returned us a ‘17 3rd and the ‘18 2nd that landed Berggren.

Pretty good career for a late first round pick imo, and I definitely agree with you that there was the mold of big, mobile probably second pairing defender there with more cohesive development.

He isn't a bust, I know people here treat him that way. But the number of games played doesn't really jibe with that. We certainly thought he could be more.

Also always fun to remind people how many games these kids are actually expected to play historically at this time of year.

https://morehockeystats.com/drafts/pickstats

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I seriously believed those two guys would form our 1st pairing D line...

They trended right after the draft, XO never improved his skating and Sproul was a very gifted junior. I will never forget seeing him in person for the first time with the Griffins and immediately getting worried. He had tons of tools, but he seemingly had no idea what was happening on the ice at times. I watched him give up back to back goals on line changes in Milwaukee and he seemed actually dumbfounded that the coach was yelling at him...

I will say I like the kind of defenders Yzerman seems to prefer. So in terms of the Simashev rumors, I can totally see him taking that cut and basically locking in mountains with mobility as our future top 4. He highlighted thinking of it as a top 4 in his availability. I know it wouldn't be lefty-right, but it would be really hard to play against Seider, Edvinssson, Wallinder and Simashev. The length, mobility and physicality could really wear down people in a series.

 

[DoMakc]

I'm sure maybe deployment was part of it, but at the heart of it, Smith is just dumb. He's never learned from any of his mistakes because watching NJ games he's still making them.

I disagree here, nobody is just dumb. Babcock had no interest in developing players he was in Cup winning business, he didn't play them enough and benched for mistakes. I don't think being benched is the best possible way how to learn from your mistakes.