Rumor: 2023-24 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Season Thread

[Foppa2118]

Because we love to feed the narratives. Top-6 superstar players that drive the play and score points are important. Doesn't really matter if they are on the center or wing. That's my opinion.

Just look at the 22 playoffs. Avs swept the Oilers and beat the mighty Lightning (almost in 5) to win the Stanley Cup with this center depth and Mikko on wing.

Avalanche: MacKinnon-Compher-Helm-Sturm
Oilers: McDavid-Draisaitl-RNH-McLeod
Lightning: Point-Stamkos-Cirelli-Killorn-Colton

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

You don't have to look any further than Avalanche history to prove this point, really.

Rantanen for Larkin (just as an example) would have been the type of pivot move that would have set the Avs up significantly better for another cup. Larkin isn't putting up the individual points Rantnanen will, but he would have made the Avs forward group as a whole a hell of of a lot more competitive. Then you spend Johansen's 4 million on a winger to replace Mikko.

Everyone was very quick to stroke off cMac this offseason. I still think Joe and cMac have been pretty f***ing terrible since they won their cup.

Yep. Like I said earlier, it isn't a coincidence the one year the Avs essentially had a pair of #1C and JTC playing exceptionally well, was the one year they win a cup with this group and dominate along the way.


Larkin is probably the absolute floor of Centers I'd trade Mikko for, but factoring contract situations I think I'd make that move as well.


I'd also trade Mikko for Nico Hischier, Dylan Cozens, Sebastian Aho, Roope Hintz, Barkov... Just to name a few. Basically any legit 1C, or high end 2C that's still pretty young.

 

[Ararana]

Mikko is awesome but yeah, the Avs trying to make it with the ghost of Ryan Johansen at center behind Nathan MacKinnon was never, ever gonna work. I think we can all agree on that.

IFIFY

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Yep, agreed. Even Alexander Ovechkin, arguably the best scoring winger of all time, didn't make it to the Promised Land until he had a roster with lots of depth up the middle, and the top two guys playing close to career-best that season.

Yep. Ovechkin is a great example of how wingers just aren't that important.


Arguably the best winger of all time. Only once has he made it out or the 2nd round, coincidentally the year he had the best center depth he's ever had to play with.

 

[Foppa2118]

About the only team I can remember that made it without a 1-2 center tandem that wasn't at least very good is Chicago, and that was mostly because Patrick Kane basically acted as the team's de facto 2C. It also helped that Dave Bolland, banged up as he always was, was an extremely good 3C.

Mikko is awesome but yeah, the Avs trying to make it with an extremely old Lars Eller and J.T. Compher at center behind Nathan MacKinnon was never, ever gonna work. I think we can all agree on that.

Compher and Eller at 2C and 3C weren't ideal but they weren't the problem. It was no Landeskog, Val, Cogs, Manson, and a banged up Lehkonen and Makar.

Make all those non centers healthy, and keep Compher and Eller at 2C and 3C, and the Avs make it to the WCF against Vegas. And if they beat Vegas they beat the Panthers to repeat as Cup champs.

 

[LOFIN]

Yep. Ovechkin is a great example of how wingers just aren't that important.


Arguably the best winger of all time. Only once has he made it out or the 2nd round, coincidentally the year he had the best center depth he's ever had to play with.

Correlation =|= causality

I'd also trade Mikko for Nico Hischier, Dylan Cozens, Sebastian Aho, Roope Hintz, Barkov... Just to name a few. Basically any legit 1C, or high end 2C that's still pretty young.

Dude... Barkov is the only one of that list you should consider. And I'm doubting that even, as of right now, Rantanen is a better player than Barkov. And I say this as a Finn. It has been the consensus for the last two years among Finnish hockey people and reporters. Position doesn't make up the difference in scoring and playoff performance.

I'm just going to leave it here, agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Foppa2118]

Washington's problem was the same problem as Edmonton and Toronto's right now and it wasn't center depth.

They never built around Ovi properly and didn't take team defense seriously enough until they finally won.

If that wasn't the case the elite center depth of McDavid-Draisaitl-RNH and Matthews-Tavares-Kerfoot would have multiple Cups by now, instead of never winning a game past the second round.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Correlation =|= causality

That is just one of many examples...


You're certainly entitled to an opinion. But considering you're pretty much on an island by yourself in this debate, it probably isn't a very good opinion.

I'd venture to guess if you made a poll about the importance of Wingers vs Centers, ~95% of people will say Centers are more important and more valuable.

 

[LOFIN]

I'd venture to guess if you made a poll about the importance of Wingers vs Centers, ~95% of people will say Centers are more important and more valuable.

I realize this, and I know this is a losing battle. And amusingly enough, still sometimes I find myself living through the same stereotype. I guess my stance is more that when it comes to top players, it's more nuance and let's face it: MacKinnon is not really your stereotypical center. He's better than Mikko, and thus more important to the team. I don't think it's because of the position he plays, he's just better.

And this is also the reason I wouldn't take forementioned Hischiers, Ahos, Hintz etc. before Mikko. Because Mikko is the better player, and provides more value to the team, regardless of him being a winger.

I think Mikko is somewhat underrated still around the league. When you hear pundits talking about top wingers, his name will come up but maybe closer to the #10 than #5, which to me is crazy. He has a case of being a top-3 winger for the last years. Certainly in that group of top wingers.

But even crazier seems to be the amount of disrespect he gets around here, when you look how he has carried this team in the abscence of #29 (and sometimes #8). I'm sorry, but comparing Hischier to Rantanen is just not going to cut it. One still hasn't managed to break 1.00PPG. The other has been >1.0 basically after his rookie season (apart from 19-20 when he had injury problems). He just scored 55 goals and 105 points. These #2Cs don't touch him.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think Mikko is somewhat underrated still around the league. When you hear pundits talking about top wingers, his name will come up but maybe closer to the #10 than #5, which to me is crazy. He has a case of being a top-3 winger for the last years. Certainly in that group of top wingers.

Mikko is tied with Marner for the most points among wingers in the last three years. He's 5th in pts/gm.

Personally I'd put him somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best winger in the NHL. Behind Pasta and Kucherov, but he's close with Robertson, Kaprizov, and Marner. I take him over Marner though.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[JH21]

Mikko being good in the postseason and the Avs needed a star 2C more than him are not mutually exclusive.

Mikko's been with the Avs for six postseason runs. And the only year they did anything of significance is when they had a star 2C. I can lead you to water, bud, but I can't force you to drink it.

Oh my freaking God. One of the best players in the league for Dylan F'n Larkin? Give your head a shake man.

I get it that it's an absolute meltdown if we don't win the cup 6 years in a row but sorry to break it to you bud, we can't win every year.

Rantanen for Larkin. LMAO!!

Easily, that one isn't even close.

Just like I'd trade Rantanen for Pettersson in an insant.

Quite frankly there's quite a few centers even below that level, I would trade Rantanen for.


On the flip side, if they ever made Rantanen a full time Center here, there's only ~3 guys in the league I'd trade him for.

How on God's green earth would Mikko at center make any more of an impact than Mikko at wing??

Wtf is going on with people?? Good lord.

 

[LOFIN]

Mikko is tied with Marner for the most points among wingers in the last three years. He's 5th in pts/gm.

Personally I'd put him somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best winger in the NHL. Behind Pasta and Kucherov, but he's close with Robertson, Kaprizov, and Marner. I take him over Marner though.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He's definitely behind Kucherov, I think with wingers he stands on an island of his own. I think Rantanen and Pastrnak are close, but goal scoring is valued and Pastrnak is still better on that front. Will be interesting to see what Mikko does this season, does he follow up scoring 50? If that's his new level, there's a better argument to be made of taking him before Pasta, because of his board play.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I think Mikko is somewhat underrated still around the league. When you hear pundits talking about top wingers, his name will come up but maybe closer to the #10 than #5, which to me is crazy. He has a case of being a top-3 winger for the last years. Certainly in that group of top wingers.

But even crazier seems to be the amount of disrespect he gets around here, when you look how he has carried this team in the abscence of #29 (and sometimes #8). I'm sorry, but comparing Hischier to Rantanen is just not going to cut it. One still hasn't managed to break 1.00PPG. The other has been >1.0 basically after his rookie season (apart from 19-20 when he had injury problems). He just scored 55 goals and 105 points. These #2Cs don't touch him.

I actually think Mikko is underrated around the league as well. I think he's probably flirting with the Top 5 among all wingers in the game. Pasta, Tkachuk, Mikko, Marner, and Kucherov. You can pretty much order them any way you want depending on what you value more(Defensive ability, Goal scoring, consistency, playoff performance, etc). I'd have Robertson and Kaprizov right below that group.


But I wouldn't have a single one of those guys in my Top 20 players across the league. That group would be made entirely of Centers and Dmen.

To me I would take a Center that produces ~80 points over a winger that produces ~100.

 

[Foppa2118]

He's definitely behind Kucherov, I think with wingers he stands on an island of his own. I think Rantanen and Pastrnak are close, but goal scoring is valued and Pastrnak is still better on that front. Will be interesting to see what Mikko does this season, does he follow up scoring 50? If that's his new level, there's a better argument to be made of taking him before Pasta, because of his board play.

Yeah I can see that reasoning. And I think Mikko could surpass him this year since Boston will be much worse this season.

My reasoning for keeping Pasta ahead of him right now is Mikko had his career year last season, and while both played 82 games, Pasta still had more goals, assists, and points.

 

[ANewHope]

wingers just aren't that important.

I agree with pretty much everything up until this point. People re-write history after the fact when teams win a cup. Kopitar was obviously the driving force for example but the Kings don't win without the wingers they have. They had massive runs. Ovy was huge. Kane was huge. Kucherov. List goes on. Someone like Justin Williams had a comically large impact in cup wins for a player of his caliber.

C is the most important position for sure but in general you need the entire team to win. You get some exceptions when your talking generational C's like Crosby paired with another C like Malkin but for the most part defense/wings are right there behind C. Would I trade Mikko for Petey/Point? Yeah. Not for Larkin or a C at that level tho. Ultimately you should keep Mikko and actually spend the assets on a legit 2C but the Avs don't seem interested in that.

 

[LOFIN]

But I wouldn't have a single one of those guys in my Top 20 players across the league. That group would be made entirely of Centers and Dmen.

To me I would take a Center that produces ~80 points over a winger that produces ~100.

Well that's just a fundamental difference we have and it's fruitless to discuss this point further. I think in general we are moving away from positional hockey anyway. Not entirely, but especially the arrival of offensive defencemen in quantity has made a huge shift in the game. We are talking less about individual positions, and more of just 5 man units. And I think this team exercises this philosophy better than anyone else in the NHL. The way D-men jump the attack, the way forwards go back to defend... And it has been a joy to watch under Bednar.

 

[Avs9296]

Put it this way, Avs are a worse team with Larkin in and Rantanen out. Period. I don't care what position they play.

Mikko is a top 5 winger in the game, top 3 RW.

 

[Pokecheque]

Compher and Eller at 2C and 3C weren't ideal but they weren't the problem. It was no Landeskog, Val, Cogs, Manson, and a banged up Lehkonen and Makar.

Make all those non centers healthy, and keep Compher and Eller at 2C and 3C, and the Avs make it to the WCF against Vegas. And if they beat Vegas they beat the Panthers to repeat as Cup champs.

I will agree that losing those players might have hurt more but I still don't think they would've done much even if the roster was healthy. Perhaps they would've gotten past the Kraks but IMO that's about it.

 

[Foppa2118]

My hot take is Johansen puts up more points than Naz next year.


Come at me bro.

Imagine RyJo outscores Naz and Drouin outscores Burky next year. I think there's a decent chance with both if they can stay healthy.

 

[Balthazar]

"Not important" Marchessault, a winger, won the Conn Smythe last year. Ovi also won the Smythe when the Caps won the cup.

In fact only 1 center in the last 6 years won the Conn Smythe and it was ROR who had a great playoff run but was arguably not even a top 10 center in the game.

 

[Avaholic29]

Johansen is going to quiet quite a few posters in here it seems. At 4m it’s actually shocking anyone is even complaining before the season starts lmao.

 

[JH21]

"Not important" Marchessault, a winger, won the Conn Smythe last year. Ovi also won the Smythe when the Caps won the cup.

In fact only 1 center in the last 6 years won the Conn Smythe and it was ROR who had a great playoff run but was arguably not even a top 10 center in the game.

Facts don't matter in here man.

Tell that to the guy who would rather have a 80 point center over a 100 point winger. That said, he was probably the guy who said faceoffs don't matter. It's comically sad in here sometimes.

 

[missionAvs]

Johansen is going to quiet quite a few posters in here it seems. At 4m it’s actually shocking anyone is even complaining before the season starts lmao.

Overpaid by 250K. That's what pisses me off.

 

[Avsfan1921]

"Not important" Marchessault, a winger, won the Conn Smythe last year. Ovi also won the Smythe when the Caps won the cup.

In fact only 1 center in the last 6 years won the Conn Smythe and it was ROR who had a great playoff run but was arguably not even a top 10 center in the game.

Yeah, people have their preferences for sure and I can see why, in our case some want to keep the “elite d” together while others believe that is never gonna work. It’s just that people tend to push way too hard on their beliefs. The only firm belief I have is that elite goaltending hasn’t been a necessity for years and teams are generally better off with mid tier contracts on that front to leave room for filling out their roster elsewhere.

Avs are built on transition and carrying the tempo so you can’t convince me that they should prioritize C over D as a whole and it will be a better outcome. If McDavid and Draisaitl can’t get it done to date along with an insane power play, then it proves to me that top center depth isn’t the most important, rather all around talent depth.

I’m saying that, I can totally see, and have to a degree, the desire to satisfy the 2c spot. I just believe it doesn’t necessarily have to be elite 2c to make it work. Chemistry, injury timing, consistently decent goaltending and everyone giving what they can are more important than anything entering this year’s playoffs imo.

TLDR; overall depth and good injury luck are more crucial to this teams success than center depth imo.

 

[John Mandalorian]

My hot take is Johansen puts up more points than Naz next year.


Come at me bro.

That Drouin - Johansen - Rantanen line is going to be really special.