Rumor: 2023-24 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Season Thread

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the_fan

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You're missing the nuance here. All teams are exposed to massive medical bills through player injuries. All teams regardless of their country of origin are at the player's will for choice of surgeon. Regardless of nationality and where the injury happens, players get their choice of surgeon. They almost always choose US based doctors because the quality of the care is typically the highest. Especially with very specialized procedures with athletes. The ones who go to Canadian based doctors are for very specific specialties and fall into the the private side of the health care there... which those cases are actually more expensive than the US ones. I know of a couple players that went outside both and got surgeries in Germany and Japan for some very specific things too, but that is far less the norm. The players demand the absolute best care, no matter where in the world it comes from (and that is a negotiated right they have via the CBA). The exposure is to expensive procedures in general, not just the US based system. Athletes live in a different world of care than the rest of us in all countries. It is an area where quality matters more than anything else and they will seek to get the best care possible.
Trust me, it’s not the quality. Obviously NHL players wouldn’t want to go overseas every time they need to see a doctor, but there is much better healthcare and doctors in other countries like Germany.

One example I’ll bring up is when Van Halen was diagnosed with cancer, he was getting treatment in Germany, then Covid happened where he couldn’t travel from US to Germany anymore and he got his treatment here in UCLA hospital in LA, and when he knew he couldn’t go to Germany anymore, he knew he was gonna die.
 

henchman21

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Feb 24, 2012
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Trust me, it’s not the quality. Obviously NHL players wouldn’t want to go overseas every time they need to see a doctor, but there is much better healthcare and doctors in other countries like Germany.

One example I’ll bring up is when Van Halen was diagnosed with cancer, he was getting treatment in Germany, then Covid happened where he couldn’t travel from US to Germany anymore and he got his treatment here in UCLA hospital in LA, and when he knew he couldn’t go to Germany anymore, he knew he was gonna die.
Ahh the trust me bro argument. :laugh:
 

the_fan

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Ahh the trust me bro argument. :laugh:
All I’m saying is healthcare qualify in US isn’t the best. Also like i mentioned, if you don’t have good coverage here, you’re dead. Other countries will give you the best treatment they have free of charge if you need it. That’s my point.
 

henchman21

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Feb 24, 2012
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All I’m saying is healthcare qualify in US isn’t the best. Also like i mentioned, if you don’t have good coverage here, you’re dead. Other countries will give you the best treatment they have free of charge if you need it. That’s my point.
Which I agree with for normal people. Athletes are in a different realm. They are country agnostic and it was negotiated that way for the NHL. This situation is not US health care related. It is health risk exposure in general where a player can choose where ever they want care (which does mostly be the US given the surgeons they have access to).
 
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the_fan

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Which I agree with for normal people. Athletes are in a different realm. They are country agnostic and it was negotiated that way for the NHL. This situation is not US health care related. It is health risk exposure in general where a player can choose where ever they want care (which does mostly be the US given the surgeons they have access to).
Ok good, as long as we agree that healthcare in US sucks
 

Alienblood

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Nov 22, 2021
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Trust me, it’s not the quality. Obviously NHL players wouldn’t want to go overseas every time they need to see a doctor, but there is much better healthcare and doctors in other countries like Germany.

One example I’ll bring up is when Van Halen was diagnosed with cancer, he was getting treatment in Germany, then Covid happened where he couldn’t travel from US to Germany anymore and he got his treatment here in UCLA hospital in LA, and when he knew he couldn’t go to Germany anymore, he knew he was gonna die.
Canada has the worst doctors and Healthcare system. Absolutely hopeless here
 

Chiarelli

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Jan 27, 2019
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Toews really has not made a ton of money (relative) to this point in his career. He would be taking on significant risk going into this season without a long term contract figured out. I imagine both sides have desire to get it done before the season starts.

Imagine a scenario where the Avs are offering the Lindholm contract (8 x 6.5 = 52) and Toews wants market which is give or take 8 x 9 or 9.5 = 72 or 76.

Toews can surely get the Avs to budge to 7 or 7.5 = 56 to 60.

Is 12 to 15 million worth it to risk losing out on 55 to 60 million dollars if he sustains a career ending injury? The guys career earnings are estimated under 17.5.


I think he’s a rational individual and something gets done in the 7.5 to 7.75 range before the season begins
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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Toews really has not made a ton of money (relative) to this point in his career. He would be taking on significant risk going into this season without a long term contract figured out. I imagine both sides have desire to get it done before the season starts.

Imagine a scenario where the Avs are offering the Lindholm contract (8 x 6.5 = 52) and Toews wants market which is give or take 8 x 9 or 9.5 = 72 or 76.

Toews can surely get the Avs to budge to 7 or 7.5 = 56 to 60.

Is 12 to 15 million worth it to risk losing out on 55 to 60 million dollars if he sustains a career ending injury? The guys career earnings are estimated under 17.5.


I think he’s a rational individual and something gets done in the 7.5 to 7.75 range before the season begins

Yep agreed.
 

Alienblood

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Nov 22, 2021
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Imagine having free healthcare but always wanting the paid for version. That’s Canadian healthcare
it's beyond terrible and it's getting worse. If you need surgery for something important you will wait over a year just for the test.

Meanwhile you go to the surgeon who is ordering the tests and he sleeping during your appointment.

Well I shook him up today when I booted the chair and yelled at him.

Looks like I will need a new referral to Halifax gladly
 

Chiarelli

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Jan 27, 2019
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it's beyond terrible and it's getting worse. If you need surgery for something important you will wait over a year just for the test.

Meanwhile you go to the surgeon who is ordering the tests and he sleeping during your appointment.

Well I shook him up today when I booted the chair and yelled at him.

Looks like I will need a new referral to Halifax gladly
Ah I’m sorry to hear about that. Remember a lot of the issues are systemic - there are good people in health as a general statement they are just being stretched thin. I understand the frustration tho.

My sister had a seizure in November last year and had her drivers license taken away until she could get an MRI to prove she was good to drive. She was told 1-3 month time but with her profession that wasn’t an option so her husband drove her 8 hours and paid out of pocket to get one done. She got the call last week (9 months later) to schedule her for said MRI. How is that reasonable?
 

Cousin Eddie

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Nov 3, 2006
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Imagine having free healthcare but always wanting the paid for version. That’s Canadian healthcare
Yup that’s me. I’m Canadian and would much prefer the American system. Paying 50-60 grand in taxes a year all so I can’t have a family doctor and have to sit in emergency rooms for 15 hours at a time if I need to see someone about something urgent.

If I lived in America I’d have insurance to cover almost all the same things except it wouldn’t cost me as much and I’d have the care I need when I need it.

Canadian health care is a privilege no doubt. But there’s a reason why the wealthy in our country travel south and pay for health care out of pocket when things get urgent.
 

VikingAv

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Jun 18, 2006
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Toews really has not made a ton of money (relative) to this point in his career. He would be taking on significant risk going into this season without a long term contract figured out. I imagine both sides have desire to get it done before the season starts.

Imagine a scenario where the Avs are offering the Lindholm contract (8 x 6.5 = 52) and Toews wants market which is give or take 8 x 9 or 9.5 = 72 or 76.

Toews can surely get the Avs to budge to 7 or 7.5 = 56 to 60.

Is 12 to 15 million worth it to risk losing out on 55 to 60 million dollars if he sustains a career ending injury? The guys career earnings are estimated under 17.5.

I think he’s a rational individual and something gets done in the 7.5 to 7.75 range before the season begins
The realistic alternative for Toews isn't 8 years, though, it's 7. Highly unlikely the Avs trade him during the season and he probably knows it.
Meaning we could have a possibility for a Nuke situation wrt his contract (8x6.125 vs 7x7). 8x7.5 equals 7x8.57mill. Looking at it that way he wouldn't lose much at all if he signs for 8x7.5. Hopefully it gets done.
 
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dahrougem2

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Dec 9, 2011
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Yup that’s me. I’m Canadian and would much prefer the American system. Paying 50-60 grand in taxes a year all so I can’t have a family doctor and have to sit in emergency rooms for 15 hours at a time if I need to see someone about something urgent.

If I lived in America I’d have insurance to cover almost all the same things except it wouldn’t cost me as much and I’d have the care I need when I need it.

Canadian health care is a privilege no doubt. But there’s a reason why the wealthy in our country travel south and pay for health care out of pocket when things get urgent.
F*** the healthcare system in this country. Wait times are why my mom's cancer spread and lung deteriorated via pneumothorax.
 

henchman21

Mr. Meeseeks
Feb 24, 2012
67,087
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Yup that’s me. I’m Canadian and would much prefer the American system. Paying 50-60 grand in taxes a year all so I can’t have a family doctor and have to sit in emergency rooms for 15 hours at a time if I need to see someone about something urgent.

If I lived in America I’d have insurance to cover almost all the same things except it wouldn’t cost me as much and I’d have the care I need when I need it.

Canadian health care is a privilege no doubt. But there’s a reason why the wealthy in our country travel south and pay for health care out of pocket when things get urgent.

Here's a misconception about US healthcare... foreigners think that you have insurance and it covers everything. That is actually far from the case. They'll deny for random reasons and make you jump through hoops to get procedures. Then you have to make sure your provider is in your network (and how difficult that is varies depending on provider), because if not, guess what? You pay double or more! If you go to the wrong urgent care, same thing. Go to the wrong ER and if the ER doesn't term it correctly, you might get the whole thing denied. And heaven forbid you get an ambulance or life flight... those are almost never covered, even if it is medically necessary to survive.

These little details of how coverage works are, in my opinion, the worst part of the US system. Worse than the costs, worse than the shitty rural doctors, worse than gotcha charges... the fact that you have to prepare for each and every instance of using it, including emergencies. If every hospital, doctor, nurse, ambulance, etc was forced in-network and it was a simple pay ___, have ___ out of pocket max, and you get coverage anywhere... I think there would be far less complaints about the US system. It would at least be transparent that way. Instead we have the similar waits, gotchas, fights, and we pay high amounts.

Three weird examples:

Right now I'm fighting with my insurance on getting a plate removed in my elbow. It was done as an emergency surgery, so wasn't the perfect operation. The plate rubs on a ligament hurting mobility, causing long-term damage that will eventually have to be repaired, and occasionally causes bursitis. These issues want me to have it removed. Yet despite 3 doctors agreeing it is medically necessary, my insurance won't allow a surgery to remove the plate. My options are basically pay 7500 for the procedure or live with it until the ligament fails and then insurance will cover it.

Another is my wife has a rare situation. She has early onset menopause where she is 36 and basically has no estrogen (and an number of other hormones). This causes all sort of issues longer term from elevated risk of stroke to osteoporosis. It is very well documented that estrogen and other hormone replacement therapies basically solve the long-term health consequences. Yet because she is under 40 and having this issue... insurance won't cover any hormone replacement costs. We have to pay out of pocket for these. Luckily we are well enough off we can afford the 1k bill every three months for the next few years until insurance will cover. But even after that, they will only cover estrogen up to a certain dosage. All the other hormones are not covered, nor is estrogen to get to normal levels, just to the bare minimum. Odds are high we will still have a ~5-600 bill in a few years instead of a thousand.

The last one... one of my friends got himself in a pickle. He loved an unclean woman, developed an infection, and then had a reaction to an antibiotic. It was a pretty serious case (SJS) and it a fairly life or death situation (he actually went into sepsis at one point during treatment and almost died). Instead of calling for an ambulance to the ER when he was really ill, he called an Uber (because that ambulance was OON). Then the hospital he went to couldn't treat him. So they had to get him to a different hospital pretty quickly. Luckily it was only ~40 miles away so he could go via ambulance (a different provider that was in network) instead of a life flight. But adding to this, his stay in the burn ward... the only way to stay alive mind you, was out of network and was initially denied. He had to sue to get it covered. He dealt with that situation for almost 2 years after the issue, and he's lucky that his dad is a doctor and well off... otherwise he might have been stuck with the bill to save his life. Which was high 6 figures.
 

NateTheGreat

Registered User
Mar 19, 2012
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Winnipeg
One aspect of signing Toews for the maximum 8 years is that he has little wear and tear on his body for a player of his caliber and age. Under 400GP combined regular season and playoffs really isn’t all that much by the time you turn 30.

Ultimately, if we sign him to an 8 year contract, the last few years will be ugly no matter what. However, you’d hope that he has a few more elite years left than most other players his age because of the minimal toll on his body and so few injuries to speak of.
 
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Ceremony

How I choose to feel is how I am
Jun 8, 2012
114,250
17,273
Here's a misconception about US healthcare... foreigners think that you have insurance and it covers everything. That is actually far from the case. They'll deny for random reasons and make you jump through hoops to get procedures. Then you have to make sure your provider is in your network (and how difficult that is varies depending on provider), because if not, guess what? You pay double or more! If you go to the wrong urgent care, same thing. Go to the wrong ER and if the ER doesn't term it correctly, you might get the whole thing denied. And heaven forbid you get an ambulance or life flight... those are almost never covered, even if it is medically necessary to survive.

These little details of how coverage works are, in my opinion, the worst part of the US system. Worse than the costs, worse than the shitty rural doctors, worse than gotcha charges... the fact that you have to prepare for each and every instance of using it, including emergencies. If every hospital, doctor, nurse, ambulance, etc was forced in-network and it was a simple pay ___, have ___ out of pocket max, and you get coverage anywhere... I think there would be far less complaints about the US system. It would at least be transparent that way. Instead we have the similar waits, gotchas, fights, and we pay high amounts.

Three weird examples:

Right now I'm fighting with my insurance on getting a plate removed in my elbow. It was done as an emergency surgery, so wasn't the perfect operation. The plate rubs on a ligament hurting mobility, causing long-term damage that will eventually have to be repaired, and occasionally causes bursitis. These issues want me to have it removed. Yet despite 3 doctors agreeing it is medically necessary, my insurance won't allow a surgery to remove the plate. My options are basically pay 7500 for the procedure or live with it until the ligament fails and then insurance will cover it.

Another is my wife has a rare situation. She has early onset menopause where she is 36 and basically has no estrogen (and an number of other hormones). This causes all sort of issues longer term from elevated risk of stroke to osteoporosis. It is very well documented that estrogen and other hormone replacement therapies basically solve the long-term health consequences. Yet because she is under 40 and having this issue... insurance won't cover any hormone replacement costs. We have to pay out of pocket for these. Luckily we are well enough off we can afford the 1k bill every three months for the next few years until insurance will cover. But even after that, they will only cover estrogen up to a certain dosage. All the other hormones are not covered, nor is estrogen to get to normal levels, just to the bare minimum. Odds are high we will still have a ~5-600 bill in a few years instead of a thousand.

The last one... one of my friends got himself in a pickle. He loved an unclean woman, developed an infection, and then had a reaction to an antibiotic. It was a pretty serious case (SJS) and it a fairly life or death situation (he actually went into sepsis at one point during treatment and almost died). Instead of calling for an ambulance to the ER when he was really ill, he called an Uber (because that ambulance was OON). Then the hospital he went to couldn't treat him. So they had to get him to a different hospital pretty quickly. Luckily it was only ~40 miles away so he could go via ambulance (a different provider that was in network) instead of a life flight. But adding to this, his stay in the burn ward... the only way to stay alive mind you, was out of network and was initially denied. He had to sue to get it covered. He dealt with that situation for almost 2 years after the issue, and he's lucky that his dad is a doctor and well off... otherwise he might have been stuck with the bill to save his life. Which was high 6 figures.
america-flag.gif


 

RockLobster

King in the North
Jul 5, 2003
27,544
8,100
Kansas
Here's a misconception about US healthcare... foreigners think that you have insurance and it covers everything. That is actually far from the case. They'll deny for random reasons and make you jump through hoops to get procedures. Then you have to make sure your provider is in your network (and how difficult that is varies depending on provider), because if not, guess what? You pay double or more! If you go to the wrong urgent care, same thing. Go to the wrong ER and if the ER doesn't term it correctly, you might get the whole thing denied. And heaven forbid you get an ambulance or life flight... those are almost never covered, even if it is medically necessary to survive.

These little details of how coverage works are, in my opinion, the worst part of the US system. Worse than the costs, worse than the shitty rural doctors, worse than gotcha charges... the fact that you have to prepare for each and every instance of using it, including emergencies. If every hospital, doctor, nurse, ambulance, etc was forced in-network and it was a simple pay ___, have ___ out of pocket max, and you get coverage anywhere... I think there would be far less complaints about the US system. It would at least be transparent that way. Instead we have the similar waits, gotchas, fights, and we pay high amounts.

Three weird examples:

Right now I'm fighting with my insurance on getting a plate removed in my elbow. It was done as an emergency surgery, so wasn't the perfect operation. The plate rubs on a ligament hurting mobility, causing long-term damage that will eventually have to be repaired, and occasionally causes bursitis. These issues want me to have it removed. Yet despite 3 doctors agreeing it is medically necessary, my insurance won't allow a surgery to remove the plate. My options are basically pay 7500 for the procedure or live with it until the ligament fails and then insurance will cover it.

Another is my wife has a rare situation. She has early onset menopause where she is 36 and basically has no estrogen (and an number of other hormones). This causes all sort of issues longer term from elevated risk of stroke to osteoporosis. It is very well documented that estrogen and other hormone replacement therapies basically solve the long-term health consequences. Yet because she is under 40 and having this issue... insurance won't cover any hormone replacement costs. We have to pay out of pocket for these. Luckily we are well enough off we can afford the 1k bill every three months for the next few years until insurance will cover. But even after that, they will only cover estrogen up to a certain dosage. All the other hormones are not covered, nor is estrogen to get to normal levels, just to the bare minimum. Odds are high we will still have a ~5-600 bill in a few years instead of a thousand.

The last one... one of my friends got himself in a pickle. He loved an unclean woman, developed an infection, and then had a reaction to an antibiotic. It was a pretty serious case (SJS) and it a fairly life or death situation. Instead of calling for an ambulance to the ER when he was really ill, he called an Uber (because that ambulance was OON). Then the hospital he went to couldn't treat him. So they had to get him to a different hospital pretty quickly. Luckily it was only ~40 miles away so he could go via ambulance (a different provider that was in network) instead of a life flight. But adding to this, his stay in the burn ward... the only way to stay alive mind you, was out of network and was initially denied. He had to sue to get it covered. He dealt with that situation for almost 2 years after the issue, and he's lucky that his dad is a doctor and well off... otherwise he might have been stuck with the bill to save his life. Which was high 6 figures.

I don't think I could have said it better. These are all good reasons why I laughably rolled my eyes when I saw that some would prefer the American healthcare system vs. their own.

Now, I'm not saying that the Canadian system is better than ours or worse than ours, just that whatever Canadians is wrong with their system, there is something equally wrong w/ the American system.

Americans go bankrupt or even die having to choose between paying their medical bill(s) or basic living needs. Americans with diabetes get gouged on their life saving medicine (insulin).

I have stories from a co-worker of his daughter needing certain life-saving medication and they recount all the hoops they jump through to get the medicine covered, and once it does it only remains covered for a little bit before their insurance provider decides to no longer cover it and so they have to change medications; and then it's a fight to find a Dr who will prescribe something different, etc.

When Eloise (my now 6 year old daughter) was only 9 months old, she woke up one night scream crying in pain, and she had a fever of 104.5 degrees. And we didn't think, we took her to the nearest ER in our small-ish town, and it turned out that it wasn't a "full-fledged ER", and they could only give her a certain dosage of infant's Ibuprofen to try and break the fever and told us to follow-up with her pediatrician on Monday (this was a Saturday night, so we had to wait another full day).

Our bill for that? $2800. For, in essence, infants Ibuprofen. And believe me, when your 9 month old child, who can't talk to you, jerks themselves awake and lets out that wail, the type of cry that you know deep down in your bones means "Help me, mommy & daddy!", you will do whatever the f*** you can to get them help. You take them anywhere who will see them. Doesn't mean that the financial aftermath is less painful. You're just give a new type of stress trying to figure it out.


***EDIT***

I got a Kidney Stone randomly one night last year. Woke up in seething pain at 2:30 in the morning on a Monday-into-Tuesday. Started vomiting immediately and couldn't stop. My wife panicked and called 911 thinking I'd need an ambulance because every time I tried to stand up I was taken to my knees and would immediately vomit. I told her "no" on the ambulance because I knew that it would immediately be about $1000 just for that.

We drove to the nearest ER (different city), and was treated for it. But despite our insurance, we still have an Out Of Pocket amount to meet before the insurance "kicks in"...so it was about $2000 when all is said and done.

Oh...and I got another kidney stone 30 days later lol
 
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dmac7719

Registered User
Apr 27, 2018
674
1,015
Ontario
I don't think I could have said it better. These are all good reasons why I laughably rolled my eyes when I saw that some would prefer the American healthcare system vs. their own.
Ignorance is bliss. Of course you're going to prefer something when it's presented to you has this better solution, without ever having the negatives shown.
 

nammerus

Registered User
Mar 9, 2003
6,216
4,528
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Yup that’s me. I’m Canadian and would much prefer the American system. Paying 50-60 grand in taxes a year all so I can’t have a family doctor and have to sit in emergency rooms for 15 hours at a time if I need to see someone about something urgent.

If I lived in America I’d have insurance to cover almost all the same things except it wouldn’t cost me as much and I’d have the care I need when I need it.

Canadian health care is a privilege no doubt. But there’s a reason why the wealthy in our country travel south and pay for health care out of pocket when things get urgent.

You have never went through the American system then. Even if you have insurance, there's deductibles. Then you have to be in the proper network. And there's not always the guarentee that in the insurance will pay out.

You know what the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US is? Probably an easy guess. And that includes those with insurance.

Canadian healthcare is far from perfect. It lags far behind some of the other free healthcare systems you see in the Europe. There are huge issues that need to be addressed, and honestly, with the aging curve, things might get worse. If you have are wealthy, then the US is unquestionably the best place in the world to get healthcare. But if you're in the middle/lower middle..it must be horrific to think that a medical ailment could destroy you financially.
 

dmac7719

Registered User
Apr 27, 2018
674
1,015
Ontario
To my fellow Canadians, yes our healthcare is a massive joke at times. But do you know who's healthcare systems is ranked worse than Canada's?


E. Better yet, if you want some real info: Mirror, Mirror 2021: Reflecting Poorly
 
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RockLobster

King in the North
Jul 5, 2003
27,544
8,100
Kansas
Ignorance is bliss. Of course you're going to prefer something when it's presented to you has this better solution, without ever having the negatives shown.
I recognize that this is horribly off topic and I've contributed to it, but whatever lol.

I agree, and like I said it's not about saying the US Healthcare is better than Canada's or anyone else's; just that it is equally flawed in a f***ed up way.
 
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nammerus

Registered User
Mar 9, 2003
6,216
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To my fellow Canadians, yes our healthcare is a massive joke at times. But do you know who's healthcare systems is ranked worse than Canada's?


E. Better yet, if you want some real info: Mirror, Mirror 2021: Reflecting Poorly

And that's with the US spending significantly more per capita then any other country on healthcare. Money is not the issue..which is baffling.
 
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