Rumor: 2023-24 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Part Deux

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So? He’s a 4OA pick. His expectations are higher than most. By 22 guys like that should be really settling into high levels of play. Obviously development isn’t linear, but at 22 his play getting more erratic is certainly not ideal.

He only has 112 games played though.

I definitely don't think he's going to be a franchise cornerstone, but I don't know if hard conclusions can be made yet.

It's pretty obvious there are people who defend him out of hope, and people who want him traded while his value is still high ish lol.

Age old argument.. hold on out of hope and patience or cut bait and see if you can find a sucker who is still on the hype train while also hoping that the player doesn't make you look stupid.

It would also be nice if our other #3D wasn't a midget who just entered a substance abuse program.

Decisions Decisions lol
 
Byram doesn't need to be on the top pair to be effective.

We won two Cups with Bourque/Blake/Foote and Makar/Toews/Byram

Most teams don't have two top minute guys and we have arguably 5 if you include Girard and Manson. This team is built on the backend and I don't think we will sacrifice that time get forward depth.

From an Avs perspective, it's great to have a top pairing potential stuck on your middle pairing. From Byram perspective...

If I was Byram, I would have asked for a trade the day after they extended Toews. His potential here is maxed out at #3D while he waits for Toews to age out. Not exactly ideal for him individually or monetarily.

The only good thing I can say here is that by the time Toews is 32 and finally aging out, Byram will only be 25 and right in the middle of his prime. The Avs will be cooked by then... but Byram should have no problem taking over the top pairing spot next to Makar at that point.

All that said I fully acknowledge that Byram is having a terrible run in 10 of the last 12 games. However, prior to that he's was leading the Avs defensemen analytically on average up that point. Byram will turn it around, he's significantly better than what we've seen over the month of November. Makar himself had a terrible stretch between games 4-11, Toews had a terrible stretch between games 2-10. These things happen.

A trend of the top four defensemen across each game from analytics at HockeyStatCards:

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People are way too lenient on ages... at 22 Byram should be entering his prime or already a season in it. It isn't that abnormal a peak happens at 22 for defensemen. That isn't always and some teams bring defensemen along slower that might delay a season or two. And when it comes to development, it isn't like Byram is a 6'4"-6'7" defensemen who do tend to take an extra year or two to really get going. He's a great skating, average sized defensemen.... those types usually step in right away at a very high level. They don't have the awkwardness of the big guys nor do they have the strength deficiency of the small guys. Either way, Byram really needs to level out his game over the next 18 months... if he doesn't, it probably won't ever come.
 
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FWIW, I'm still disappointed Zadorov never panned out. I loved that guy and he has such great skills in his toolbox yet no one at the wheel.
IMO if Z went to Tampa or Carolina (or was on a Cup era Kings team), he would have found his calling. Those systems require so much less decision making and awareness to where big, physical defensemen can really shine with simple games. I don't think he would have ever gotten to be a top pairing guy, but it would have been far closer. Once the Roy-era Avs went fully away from the man system and definitely under Bednar's system, Z never really had the brain to make it work.

In a similar regard, Byram would also thrive in a pure man system. It would keep him more engaged and put him higher in the zone when plays are broken up to where he can act like a 4th forward more.
 
He only has 112 games played though.

I definitely don't think he's going to be a franchise cornerstone, but I don't know if hard conclusions can be made yet.

It's pretty obvious there are people who defend him out of hope, and people who want him traded while his value is still high ish lol.

Age old argument.. hold on out of hope and patience or cut bait and see if you can find a sucker who is still on the hype train while also hoping that the player doesn't make you look stupid.

It would also be nice if our other #3D wasn't a midget who just entered a substance abuse program.

Decisions Decisions lol
I’m not saying he needs to be moved or traded or anything. But this magical upside everyone talks about is slipping away. Like @Ararana keeps saying, for that to happen it won‘t happen here, or probably anywhere I don’t think.

The biggest issue is he doesn’t seem to be willing to adapt his game. At least not consistently. He could be a great dman if he simplified his game and we’ve seen flashes of it in the playoffs. But for whatever reason he goes back to his roving erratic gameplay.
 
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IMO if Z went to Tampa or Carolina (or was on a Cup era Kings team), he would have found his calling. Those systems require so much less decision making and awareness to where big, physical defensemen can really shine with simple games. I don't think he would have ever gotten to be a top pairing guy, but it would have been far closer. Once the Roy-era Avs went fully away from the man system and definitely under Bednar's system, Z never really had the brain to make it work.

In a similar regard, Byram would also thrive in a pure man system. It would keep him more engaged and put him higher in the zone when plays are broken up to where he can act like a 4th forward more.

The two or three times Bednar just told Z to zero in on one guy he probably had his best games as an Avs player.
 
The two or three times Bednar just told Z to zero in on one guy he probably had his best games as an Avs player.
Yeah and it isn't a coincidence that his best seasons came under Sutter. Keep it simple and allow his skill set to shine, you have a pretty useful player. If you ask your defensemen to play in space and make a lot of decisions, he's going to be terrible (which is why New Jersey or Toronto would be a disaster for him). Dallas would be interesting with their swarmish heavy pressure D... a bit more thinking, but Z's size and ability physically could be very useful.
 
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I’m not saying he needs to be moved or traded or anything. But this magical upside everyone talks about is slipping away. Like @Ararana keeps saying, for that to happen it won‘t happen here, or probably anywhere I don’t think.

The biggest issue is he doesn’t seem to be willing to adapt his game. At least not consistently. He could be a great dman if he simplified his game and we’ve seen flashes of it in the playoffs. But for whatever reason he goes back to his roving erratic gameplay.

I mean, I get it.. He has an offensive mindset. Most other teams drafting him there would be throwing him in all situations.

He's also a confident sob. He wants to be Makar, but should be emulating Toews.

I'm just not making any conclusions quite yet, but I also don't envy Cmac in the decision either.

Toews took a discount and removed himself from that conversation lol.

Hopefully the right move presents itself more clearly.
 
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I'm sure I could find one of the many posts I've made saying Zadorov is at his best when he's allowed to do whatever he wants, but I'm always happy to say it again.

And Byram is in his 4th NHL season, having actually played the equivalent of less than one and a half season's worth of games.
 
I mean, I get it.. He has an offensive mindset. Most other teams drafting him there would be throwing him in all situations.

He's also a confident sob. He wants to be Makar, but should be emulating Toews.

I'm just not making any conclusions quite yet, but I also don't envy Cmac in the decision either.

Toews took a discount and removed himself from that conversation lol.

Hopefully the right move presents itself more clearly.
Byram thinks he's the most talented player in any game, when he's probably somewhere around 8-10 on any given night. This tends to be a tough thing for a lot of players to get.

In a different way, think about Newhook. His whole career, he was a better skater than anybody else that touched the ice that night. This allowed him to shine above and utilize his other above average to good skills. Yet as he progressed up, those skills were not good enough overcome his loss of skating margin. Once you get to the NHL where half the league is as good of skater as him, and many of them bigger and more talented, he didn't have anything to separate at a high level. He doesn't have the skating to be a plus guy at center so the other skills have to shine... when they don't he's about as bland as it gets. You give him less ice, with less responsibility on the wing with somebody clearing some space, he can be a good complimentary winger with a plus shot and give you good transition speed.

Byram has this issue as a defensemen, but he's not settling into his strengths yet. Part of that has to be coaching, part has to be Byram.

Byram is nowhere near a finished product. Not only he's young for a dman but he has little mileage because of injuries.

Not finished, but it isn't like he's super young or inexperienced. Luke Hughes is showing flashes of taking control and he just turned 20. Seider is already a #1. Sanderson looks like a #1D at 21. Mid first guys like Guhle, York, Harley, Schneider, etc don't look far off. Byram as a top 5 pick should (rightfully) be expected to be in that Hughes/Seider/Sanderson conversation.
 
Byram thinks he's the most talented player in any game, when he's probably somewhere around 8-10 on any given night. This tends to be a tough thing for a lot of players to get.

In a different way, think about Newhook. His whole career, he was a better skater than anybody else that touched the ice that night. This allowed him to shine above and utilize his other above average to good skills. Yet as he progressed up, those skills were not good enough overcome his loss of skating margin. Once you get to the NHL where half the league is as good of skater as him, and many of them bigger and more talented, he didn't have anything to separate at a high level. He doesn't have the skating to be a plus guy at center so the other skills have to shine... when they don't he's about as bland as it gets. You give him less ice, with less responsibility on the wing with somebody clearing some space, he can be a good complimentary winger with a plus shot and give you good transition speed.

Byram has this issue as a defensemen, but he's not settling into his strengths yet. Part of that has to be coaching, part has to be Byram.



Not finished, but it isn't like he's super young or inexperienced. Luke Hughes is showing flashes of taking control and he just turned 20. Seider is already a #1. Sanderson looks like a #1D at 21. Mid first guys like Guhle, York, Harley, Schneider, etc don't look far off. Byram as a top 5 pick should (rightfully) be expected to be in that Hughes/Seider/Sanderson conversation.

I don't think Byram has the mindset to be Toews, he should really be looking at a ton of Doughty tape.
 
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Not finished, but it isn't like he's super young or inexperienced. Luke Hughes is showing flashes of taking control and he just turned 20. Seider is already a #1. Sanderson looks like a #1D at 21. Mid first guys like Guhle, York, Harley, Schneider, etc don't look far off. Byram as a top 5 pick should (rightfully) be expected to be in that Hughes/Seider/Sanderson conversation.
These guys don't have Makar in front of them and all those injuries messed with his development so it had to be expected.

Personally I'm not worried about him yet. Not even the slightliest.
 
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I don't think Byram has the mindset to be Toews, he should really be looking at a ton of Doughty tape.
I just highly disagree with this... he's simply not Doughty level talent to pull that game off. If he emulates Doughty, he's going to be a very frustrating player. Doughty as a very high end talent player was incredibly frustrating in his prime... Byram would be worse.
 
He wants to be Makar, but should be emulating Toews.

I disagree entirely. Byram's game emulates Makar far more than it does Toews. Byram's ceiling was never capable of coming close to Makar's, but since his days in the WHL he's been a run and gun defenseman.

Byram is nowhere near a finished product. Not only he's young for a dman but he has little mileage because of injuries.

But this is HFBoards where the last 5 games are the only thing that matters.
 
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These guys don't have Makar in front of them and all those injuries messed with his development so it had to be expected.

Personally I'm not worried about him yet. Not even the slightliest.
Makar isn't in front of Byram... Toews is. If Byram has developed beyond Toews, Toews wouldn't have been re-signed. All of those guys except Seider have had players in front of them.

But this is HFBoards where the last 5 games are the only thing that matters.

I've been saying this same thing since 2018 and got roasted for it after he was drafted here. :laugh:
 
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Weren't you also in the camp that Barrie was a top pairing defenseman?
And he clearly was. Prime Barrie was a #2D. Only a 2 because his flaws in his all around game made him a high event guy. He was one of the best offensive defensemen in the league in his prime.

Maybe this is the way to put it... Barrie was a poor man's Karlsson... like Byram would be a poor man's Doughty. All the same flaws, just cranked up with flashes of brilliance but never hit the level you want.
 
Weren't you also in the camp that Barrie was a top pairing defenseman?
I mean Barrie was a top pairing OFD for sure in his prime. Pretty sure he was like top 3 for most even strength points for dmen from like 2014-2018.

Flawed in his own zone for sure, but elite offensively in his prime.
 
And he clearly was. Prime Barrie was a #2D. Only a 2 because his flaws in his all around game made him a high event guy. He was one of the best offensive defensemen in the league in his prime.

Maybe this is the way to put it... Barrie was a poor man's Karlsson... like Byram would be a poor man's Doughty. All the same flaws, just cranked up with flashes of brilliance but never hit the level you want.

You and I view defenseman wildly different. But, hey, nothing wrong with that I guess. IMO Barrie was a train wreck of a defenseman who was able to hide behind secondary point production. Middle pairing offensive upside, absolutely. Top pair requires two-way game IMO.

But nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

I'll give you this though, you're consistent as hell with your opinions

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