Speculation: 2023-24 Roster Thread

[Goose of Reason]

The idea that Z and Jamie are both injured because of their holdouts, that we are now bad because we're missing them and both of them can be moved on from entirely feels like a pretty wild overreaction from missing 11 and 14 days respectively of being with the team

 

[DavidBL]

The team pretty much claimed that they're both injured because they tried to get going too fast. They didn't have that build up period to 100% Both injuries were described as being caused by trying to do too kuch too soon.
Edit: Sorry @Goose of Reason meant to reply to you.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

The team pretty much claimed that they're both injured because they tried to get going too fast. They didn't have that build up period to 100% Both injuries were described as being caused by trying to do too kuch too soon.
Edit: Sorry @Goose of Reason meant to reply to you.

Well...Cronin claimed that, while also saying he didn't know what the injuries were. It might have just been a bit of 60-year-old's folk wisdom.

 

[Goose of Reason]

The team pretty much claimed that they're both injured because they tried to get going too fast. They didn't have that build up period to 100% Both injuries were described as being caused by trying to do too kuch too soon.
Edit: Sorry @Goose of Reason meant to reply to you.

It just feels that with all the offseason training Verbeek had Z do, and that quote from Kreider about being surprised at how hard Z was working out with him, that 11 days not at a camp nullifies that. Guys miss 5ish games with injuries all the time and are fine after that, that's the equivalent timeline to what he missed in camp. It all just feels like this weird continuation of people turning on Z for not having a contract the day camp started.

 

[Ducks DVM]

It just feels that with all the offseason training Verbeek had Z do, and that quote from Kreider about being surprised at how hard Z was working out with him, that 11 days not at a camp nullifies that. Guys miss 5ish games with injuries all the time and are fine after that, that's the equivalent timeline to what he missed in camp. It all just feels like this weird continuation of people turning on Z for not having a contract the day camp started.

Players who miss camp are notorious for starting slow and/or getting injured. A number of Ducks players said they’d never had a preseason that was taxing in the way this one was, and working hard with another player =/= the typical intensity of being pushed to/past your limits by an actual coach. Especially as we have zero reference for what Kreider considers “hard”.

There might be some “Z haters”, but I think the majority were unhappy with him missing camp because of the standard repercussions for missing camp.

 

[Goose of Reason]

Players who miss camp are notorious for starting slow and/or getting injured. A number of Ducks players said they’d never had a preseason that was taxing in the way this one was, and working hard with another player =/= the typical intensity of being pushed to/past your limits by an actual coach. Especially as we have zero reference for what Kreider considers “hard”.

There might be some “Z haters”, but I think the majority were unhappy with him missing camp because of the standard repercussions for missing camp.

Is there actual established proof of missing part of training camp resulting in early injuries in season though? I've seen that claim a couple times here but never any actual data to back it up. I just have a hard time thinking that 11 days has some statistically significant preventative effect on injury no matter how hard they were skating, unless Cronin and Verbeek were infusing guys' bones with adamantium in that time.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

It just feels that with all the offseason training Verbeek had Z do, and that quote from Kreider about being surprised at how hard Z was working out with him, that 11 days not at a camp nullifies that. Guys miss 5ish games with injuries all the time and are fine after that, that's the equivalent timeline to what he missed in camp. It all just feels like this weird continuation of people turning on Z for not having a contract the day camp started.

You can't compare training and then playing NHL games to already playing NHL games and then returning back to the game, especially when there's a new head coach. In missing training camp, one does miss out on ramping up being physical, developing timing, and developing chemistry. Z has been snake bitten in scoring this year, which means his accuracy is off on in-game situations. He's usually in the right place and right time, but the execution isn't there.

Z and Drysdale missing camp this year was especially huge due to having a new head coach. There's a number of us that don't blame Z or Drysdale for missing camp. Players aren't in charge of contract negotiations. Player agents and the GM/front office are in charge of contract negotiations. Players can't be with the team until they're under contract. It's Verbeek's job to get the players signed before camp. Verbeek failed to sign both before camp. He literally shot himself in the foot in that failure.

Hopefully, Verbeek can learn from this mistake and get players he wants re-signed to be signed long before training camp. How stupid can Verbeek be if he does the same thing in two years with McTavish or three years with Carlsson?

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Is there actual established proof of missing part of training camp resulting in early injuries in season though? I've seen that claim a couple times here but never any actual data to back it up. I just have a hard time thinking that 11 days has some statistically significant preventative effect on injury no matter how hard they were skating, unless Cronin and Verbeek were infusing guys' bones with adamantium in that time.

You mean besides every sports league having training camps before the season starts, which includes pre-season or exhibition games? There is a difference between being "in shape" and being "in game shape". Training camp + pre-season/exhibition games helps one go from "in shape" to "in game shape".

 

[Ducks DVM]

Is there actual established proof of missing part of training camp resulting in early injuries in season though? I've seen that claim a couple times here but never any actual data to back it up. I just have a hard time thinking that 11 days has some statistically significant preventative effect on injury no matter how hard they were skating, unless Cronin and Verbeek were infusing guys' bones with adamantium in that time.

Increased Regular Season Soft Tissue Injury Rates in National Football League (NFL) Players May Be Associated With the Canceled 2020 NFL Preseason Due to COVID-19

IntroductionThe purpose of this study is to evaluate the rates of regular season soft tissue injuries in National Football League (NFL) players during the 2020 season, which had a canceled preseason due to the COVID-19 pandemic.MethodsThis study retrospectively ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Different sport, but similar contact intensity.

 

[MMC]

It's Verbeek's job to get the players signed before camp. Verbeek failed to sign both before camp. He literally shot himself in the foot in that failure.

Hopefully, Verbeek can learn from this mistake and get players he wants re-signed to be signed long before training camp. How stupid can Verbeek be if he does the same thing in two years with McTavish or three years with Carlsson?

Not nearly as simple as you want to act like it is, and it's way less stupid than overpaying. Was it stupid for Murray to go into the season with both Lindholm and Rakell unsigned? Just how it is sometimes, blaming an individual is pointless.

 

[snowave]

I swear I don't remember seeing the massive number of injuries in the NHL back in the day (90s to before 2010) as their seem to be now. Maybe it's just me, but I sometimes wonder if the extensive workouts guys do now (vs the older days, when it wasn't nearly as intense, to my understanding) has some affect. I do suspect teams/players are much more cautious nowadays though, vs playing with injuries vs back then.

I think I remember this being brought up before several years ago, too.

 

[ADHB]

I swear I don't remember seeing the massive number of injuries in the NHL back in the day (90s to before 2010) as their seem to be now. Maybe it's just me, but I sometimes wonder if the extensive workouts guys do now (vs the older days, when it wasn't nearly as intense, to my understanding) has some affect. I do suspect teams/players are much more cautious nowadays though, vs playing with injuries vs back then.

I think I remember this being brought up before several years ago, too.

It's a combination. Guys are faster, stronger, shoot harder, etc. That leads to more injuries. But like you said, this is a different era. Teams (and the players themselves) aren't dumb enough to have guys play through things, especially if it's a risk to their long term health.

 

[All Mighty]

With Luneau playing his last game as a Duck this season, Vaakanainen will likely get back into the lineup. Though that means either he or LaCombe will have to play on their off side. Hopefully Drysdale is back soon.

 

[MMC]

Hagg will probably get called up but I’d kinda like to try Carrick as the 7th D. But he’s also probably too important to SD for it to be a good idea to recall him from there.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Not nearly as simple as you want to act like it is, and it's way less stupid than overpaying. Was it stupid for Murray to go into the season with both Lindholm and Rakell unsigned? Just how it is sometimes, blaming an individual is pointless.

You do know you can start negotiation far sooner than to have it bleed into training camp. There exists that option. And during that option period, you can haggle. Why GM's wait, I have no idea. But to believe the only way to get a good deal is to let players sit out training camp?

One has to be fully ignorant to not know the market range of a specific player.

But hey, let's not blame anyone and just give out participation awards b/c no one's at fault for not getting your players in before training camp begins.

On a micro level, it's a significant problem. On a macro level, it's just for that season, but the rest of the seasons under contract will be smooth.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

The idea that Z and Jamie are both injured because of their holdouts, that we are now bad because we're missing them and both of them can be moved on from entirely feels like a pretty wild overreaction from missing 11 and 14 days respectively of being with the team

It's not an overreaction

They missed a critical portion of getting ready for the season. Zegras before getting hurt definitely was not up to par to begin with. At the very least their hold outs did not help matters and now that they're both hurt, with those injuries hurting the team people are going to be pissed

 

[Gliff]

Zegras-Leo-Killorn
Vatrano-McT-Strome
Henrique-Lundestrom-Terry
Johnston-Carrick-Leason

Fowler-Drysdale
Minty-Bush
LaCombe/Vaak-Gudas

If the 2nd line turns it back on when McT comes back that top 9 looks.... good.

 

[FlyingV09]

With Luneau playing his last game as a Duck this season, Vaakanainen will likely get back into the lineup. Though that means either he or LaCombe will have to play on their off side. Hopefully Drysdale is back soon.

Is it confirmed that he's going back to junior after the WJC?

 

[Ducks DVM]

Is it confirmed that he's going back to junior after the WJC?

They said that he was going during the broadcast last night

 

[caliamad]

I actually want to seperate Zegras and Carlson so that Zegras can get easier matchups and we spread the offense over 3 lines.

I'm even tempted to put Zegras with Vatrano and Strome, 2 defensively responsible but offensively capable guys.

Then Terry and MacTavish with Henrique

Finally Carlson Killon with someone like Jones or McGinn

Killorn Carlson Jones
Henrique MacTavish Terry
Zegras Strome Vatrano
McGinn Carrick Gleason

That would be a nice road lineup, and the home coach would have a hard figuring out who he wants his top pairing out against.

Feels like we have too many LWs and not enough RWs (I've mailed the check on Siflverberg to start the season).

Defensively, I'm confused what to do. Feels like we are still missing an ideal partner for Fowler and I felt like it was still a mistake to let Manson go.

I like Gudas for the 2nd / 3rd pairing but not top. We also need a replacement for Bush eventually.

To me getting a bonafide 2 way shut down defenseman has to be our top priority. Then we can run:

Fowler 2 way D
Minty Gudas
Lacombe Drysdale

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

I actually want to seperate Zegras and Carlson so that Zegras can get easier matchups and we spread the offense over 3 lines.

I'm even tempted to put Zegras with Vatrano and Strome, 2 defensively responsible but offensively capable guys.

Then Terry and MacTavish with Henrique

Finally Carlson Killon with someone like Jones or McGinn

Killorn Carlson Jones
Henrique MacTavish Terry
Zegras Strome Vatrano
McGinn Carrick Gleason

That would be a nice road lineup, and the home coach would have a hard figuring out who he wants his top pairing out against.

Feels like we have too many LWs and not enough RWs (I've mailed the check on Siflverberg to start the season).

Defensively, I'm confused what to do. Feels like we are still missing an ideal partner for Fowler and I felt like it was still a mistake to let Manson go.

I like Gudas for the 2nd / 3rd pairing but not top. We also need a replacement for Bush eventually.

To me getting a bonafide 2 way shut down defenseman has to be our top priority. Then we can run:

Fowler 2 way D
Minty Gudas
Lacombe Drysdale

Defensively there's nothing to be done except wait, really. They added Gudas and Lyubushkin over the summer and switched/convinced the players to play a system where the D challenge and chase aggressively starting in the NZ, and also rotate more effectively man-on-man. The effect is that we've shaved ~3/4 of a GPG off our goals against which is a huge accomplishment. But it's still bad.

The players we have will have to mature into what we need. We certainly could use a 1/2D but I don't think spending significant money to sign one or significant assets to acquire one is the best way to do it because 1) if we're going to keep spending in the UFA market we need to use it on forward depth and 2) most of the valuable assets we could spend to acquire a high-end D are our defensive prospects, and the player would eat significant cap, see #1.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Is it confirmed that he's going back to junior after the WJC?

They said that he was going during the broadcast last night

Whoa... I missed that info. I know I heard this was Luneau's last game today because he was heading off to the WJC camp, but I didn't know he was also being returned to juniors. That'll let his ELC slide down a year, which is good for the org.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Whoa... I missed that info. I know I heard this was Luneau's last game today because he was heading off to the WJC camp, but I didn't know he was also being returned to juniors. That'll let his ELC slide down a year, which is good for the org.

Sorry, they said last game and I interpreted it that way, I didn’t have it go through my brain that it could just be for WJC. I may be overstating because I heard something different than they meant.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

It's not an overreaction

They missed a critical portion of getting ready for the season. Zegras before getting hurt definitely was not up to par to begin with. At the very least their hold outs did not help matters and now that they're both hurt, with those injuries hurting the team people are going to be pissed

Drysdale was in the 2022-23 training camp, but lost a year to injury after 8 games. This year, Drysdale wasn't in training camp and fell to injury 2 games into the season. With respect to Drysdale, the holdout angle doesn't fly. In fact, Drysdale's injury has benefited the Ducks because it has shown that our defense has improved from last year. Anaheim got to see both Vaaks and Luneau grow over the first 25 games as well as know they have a D-man who can play left or right D in rookie LaCombe to help shelter the lower pairings. Whenever Drysdale returns, then that will be icing on top!

With Z, he didn't have the scoring production due to being snake bitten as opposed to constant bad play. There was good contribution on the ice when Z was around. Z was part of the 6-game winning streak, but wasn't part of the 8-game losing streak.

Z's injury puts on display that we're lacking top-6 scoring talent depth. The blue line is able to improve without Drysdale, which reveals we have talented depth in defense.

So yeah, it's an overreaction. When we finished at the bottom of the league last year and our 1C is an 18-year old part-timer this season, that should best describe our expectations in our current situation.

 

[snowave]

The holdout injuries are a stretch... (just like the baby thing with Terry). These are easy excuses to lay blame, but in reality, I doubt there's much weight to either being primary reasons for injuries/Terry playing like crap.