2023-24 Roster Thread #6: A Hall of Famer, a doctor, a policeman and a moose walk into a bar with a Bundy...

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[Cody Webster]

 

[BigToe]

Met with the Flyers 20 minutes before the draft.

Sounds like they had him over Cutter then.

 

[Rebels57]

Sounds like they had him over Cutter then.

That makes me feel a little better about their process.

 

[flyerslducks]

Wonder what Arizona wanted. Would had to start with our 1st that year and what?

My god…Cooley and Michkov wouldve been insane.

 

[VladDrag]

My god there is a bunch of waffle in here.

Morgan Frost back in the Flyers lineup, but long-term fit questions remain - PHLY Sports

Morgan Frost's 15-day benching finally ended on Monday. But can he prove he needs to be part of the Flyers' future?

allphly.com

I guess it's Frost's fault that Foerster didn't elevate the puck when Frost found him wide open in the slot on the PP.

There's a lot in here I could argue about, but I'll just say this. Charlie is stretching the truth, and ignoring other truths because he doesn't like Frost for one reason or another.

 

[deadhead]

There's a lot in here I could argue about, but I'll just say this. Charlie is stretching the truth, and ignoring other truths because he doesn't like Frost for one reason or another.

I think he's just relaying what he's heard.

I don't get the impression they dislike Frost, this isn't a Hayes situation, more frustration with a talented young (but not so young anymore) player who hasn't taken the next step. I think Charlie's right that Frost, like a lot of skilled players, developed bad habits in the CHL where the windows are much wider, players slower and he could play a more deliberate game.

It's not just Frost, watching the Carolina game unfold, I got the feeling for a lot of young players (the 4th line was the only one to show up initially) the pressure from Carolina initially unnerved them, then as the game progressed they realized they could play at that pace and became more confident.

 

[FLYguy3911]

 

[Starat327]

Sounds like poor developmental processes to me.

 

[VladDrag]

I think he's just relaying what he's heard.

I'm not really talking about the position of Flyers, I'm talking about how he is attempting to minimize Frost's accomplishments last year. Talking about how 46 points in 81 games isn't 2C production. Of course it's not, but it's not as if he was deployed as a 2C for 81 full games last season. Ignores his ES positive ES scoring. Talking about how Frost didn't score in the PP last night, but ignoring that he lead the team in xGF/60 on the PP, and was involved in 2 or 3 PP chances. Talks about scattered turn overs, neglects to mention his line was the best in terms of shot suppression last night. Talking about how Cates only had 8 less points, neglects to mention the better deployment and linemates he got. Talks/eludes to superior defensive metrics for Cates, neglects to mention how poor offensively he was by those very same metrics (or how good frost was by those metrics). There's just so much in there that it's clear he has a bias against Frost.


I am not going to debate these things with you, either. I know you have a different opinion.

 

[Curufinwe]

Charlie is either consciously or subconsciously engaging in the same nonsense the Couturier knockers did up until 2017. Like saying he was only a 3C in 16-17 because he scored 34 points, ignoring the fact that he only played 66 games, and that 31 of those points were at ES ranking him 2nd behind Voracek.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Remember the summer 2017 lineups that had Couturier playing behind Filppula and Patrick?

 

[Magua]

I'm not really talking about the position of Flyers, I'm talking about how he is attempting to minimize Frost's accomplishments last year. Talking about how 46 points in 81 games isn't 2C production. Of course it's not, but it's not as if he was deployed as a 2C for 81 full games last season.

That’s arbitrary.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That’s arbitrary.

Ok, I hate him now. Charlie has become the exact archetype that puts people off of numbers because they're so thoroughly unlikable. And I can't call them wrong for it.

It's not an exaggeration to say Bill James was such an unrepentant asshole that he actively hurt the growth of new metrics while still pushing them forward.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not really talking about the position of Flyers, I'm talking about how he is attempting to minimize Frost's accomplishments last year. Talking about how 46 points in 81 games isn't 2C production. Of course it's not, but it's not as if he was deployed as a 2C for 81 full games last season. Ignores his ES positive ES scoring. Talking about how Frost didn't score in the PP last night, but ignoring that he lead the team in xGF/60 on the PP, and was involved in 2 or 3 PP chances. Talks about scattered turn overs, neglects to mention his line was the best in terms of shot suppression last night. Talking about how Cates only had 8 less points, neglects to mention the better deployment and linemates he got. Talks/eludes to superior defensive metrics for Cates, neglects to mention how poor offensively he was by those very same metrics (or how good frost was by those metrics). There's just so much in there that it's clear he has a bias against Frost.


I am not going to debate these things with you, either. I know you have a different opinion.

I find the comparisons between Cates and Frost to be silly, they're two different players with different styles, roles and skills. Comparing Cates and Laughton makes sense, or Frost with other offensive 2Cs around the league. Cates is not projected as a 2C, and hasn't been used as one.

Frost flashed 2C skills last season, and in the second half of last night's game, after he looked like shit the first two games. The problem is if you make him the 2C, and pay him like a 2C ($6+M on a long-term deal) you want to be sure he'll be a consistent 2C. They have a couple years before they have to make that decision.

There have been a number of centers who flashed for a season or two, then were never able to sustain that level of production. Some got paid off one or two years and couldn't replicate that performance.

Granlund is a good example
24: 45 ES points, 25: 45, 26: 32, 27: 23 (63g), 28: 20 (51g), 29: 36, 30: 29
Athanasiou
24: 43 ES points, 25: 19 (55g), 26: 22 (47g), 27: 14 (28g), 28: 33
Tyler Johnson
24: 55 ES points, 25: 25, 26: 28, 27: 35, 28: 38, 29: 24 (65g), 30: 19 (55g)
Stepan
22: 30 (48g) ES points, 23: 36, 24: 40, 25: 36, 26: 36, 27: 36, 28: 29, 29: 20

Charlie is simply wrong, I used 56 games b/c Dec 7 was when Torts settled on three lines that he played on a regular basis the rest of the season, and Frost clearly played better when he could develop chemistry with his linemates (so did Cates for that matter).

 

[Magua]

Ok, I hate him now. Charlie has become the exact archetype that puts people off of numbers because they're so thoroughly unlikable.

Speaking of stats archetypes.....

Not kidding, I cancelled my subscription after reading this comment. I hadn't looked at this shit in weeks anyway.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Speaking of stats archetypes.....

Not kidding, I cancelled my subscription after reading this comment. I hadn't looked at this shit in weeks anyway.

They don’t hate stats, they just like stats that don’t really tell you much of anything or just lack all context in figuring the total sum. Essentially whatever doesn’t have to make them think too hard.

 

[Magua]

That’s arbitrary.

@VladDrag works very hard here, so I'll just save him the trouble of explaining:

Is "55 games" arbitrary? Sure, every sample cut-off is going to be slightly arbitrary. But for most of the first 2 months of the season, Frost was seeing similar all-situation ice time to a career 4th liner who bolted to the Czech league 1 month later. He was seeing less ice-time than MacEwen. There's a very specific reason why throwing out his first 15-20+ games is totally valid. Not to mention quality of linemates. Needing to include that sample to not be "arbitrary" is purposefully manipulative in its own right for its own reasons. Don't pretend it was a linear season, by the eye or numbers.

 

[deadhead]

What makes a cutoff arbitrary is not being able to articulate the changes in the underlying model that justifies the cutoff.

 

[Starat327]

@VladDrag works very hard here, so I'll just save him the trouble of explaining:

Is "55 games" arbitrary? Sure, every sample cut-off is going to be slightly arbitrary. But for most of the first 2 months of the season, Frost was seeing similar all-situation ice time to a career 4th liner who bolted to the Czech league 1 month later. He was seeing less ice-time than MacEwen. There's a very specific reason why throwing out his first 15-20+ games is totally valid. Not to mention quality of linemates. Needing to include that sample to not be "arbitrary" is purposefully manipulative in its own right for its own reasons. Don't pretend it was a linear season, by the eye or numbers.

Someone will come in and defend Charlie's position, without a doubt.

 

[renberg]

What happens with Fedotov after January 1? Any chance that he will come over? If he does would the Flyers sign him and then keep him in NA?

 

[Curufinwe]

Over the full season Frost led the Flyers in ES scoring.

Not arbitrary, but people who are desperate to downplay Frost will happily ignore it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think he's just relaying what he's heard.

I don't get the impression they dislike Frost, this isn't a Hayes situation, more frustration with a talented young (but not so young anymore) player who hasn't taken the next step. I think Charlie's right that Frost, like a lot of skilled players, developed bad habits in the CHL where the windows are much wider, players slower and he could play a more deliberate game.

It's not just Frost, watching the Carolina game unfold, I got the feeling for a lot of young players (the 4th line was the only one to show up initially) the pressure from Carolina initially unnerved them, then as the game progressed they realized they could play at that pace and became more confident.

The coach has all but screamed his hatred of Frost, and we know Flahr agreed with him.

 

[deadhead]

The coach has all but screamed his hatred of Frost, and we know Flahr agreed with him.

No he hasn't, compare his comments about Frost with his comments about Hayes.
Hayes wouldn't play defense at center, and fought a move to wing. Torts gave up on him.

Torts is trying to push Frost into taking his game to the next level.
Whether Frost is the type you can push, or whether he needs the kid glove treatment remains to be seen.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No he hasn't, compare his comments about Frost with his comments about Hayes.
Hayes wouldn't play defense at center, and fought a move to wing. Torts gave up on him.

Torts is trying to push Frost into taking his game to the next level.
Whether Frost is the type you can push, or whether he needs the kid glove treatment remains to be seen.

Did you know it is possible for Tortorella to dislike Frost without disliking him as much as Hayes?

I don't remember him ever calling Hayes a toilet seat. I do remember him treating saying anything even neutral about Frost like he's having his nipples burned off, while having no such issues praising others.

You insist on doing this weird thing where you ignore everything Tortorella says and does, and instead pretend that your imagined fantasizing about him is what he really is.

 

[deadhead]

Did you know it is possible for Tortorella to dislike Frost without disliking him as much as Hayes?

I don't remember him ever calling Hayes a toilet seat. I do remember him treating saying anything even neutral about Frost like he's having his nipples burned off, while having no such issues praising others.

He didn't call Frost a toilet seat, he was commenting on Frost's inconsistent play, which was up and down "like a toilet seat." Maybe not the best choice of words, but he got his point across.